That not true and you know it. The blame of how people are reacting belongs at the devs feet particularly the way they have handled things. I am a group/solo player but even when I listened to the podcast the way Keith handled the story was oh yea there will be something like it was an afterthought.

 

While everyone knows we need all aspects of the game for it to survive it doesn't help the situation when one of the devs make a comment that makes the story like an afterthought.

 

While I think it is funny you make this comment about Luna, who is very fair and believes everything should be included in the game, I have seen posts from you before that you get the same way when there is nothing for pvp.

Maybe we need to stop fighting about what is important and what isn't because to me all aspects of the game are but if they focus on only one aspect (lets say pvp) you are going to lose more players and that is something the game can't afford to do.

 

Now le'ts look at this and see what they have done recently:

 

Story- Cannot be replayed anymore- even though the chapters where not that good on some of them, you could redo them if you wanted to. The last two flashpoints with the little bit of story in it can't be redone if you wanted. Sure you can do the flashpoints but the story is gone once you do. Companions- oh please 2-5 minutes that is a horrible way to handle it, even for someone like me that doesn't do a lot of romances with the companions. They have done this as an afterthought in my opinion.

 

PVP- Can be done over and over if you want. You can do all the warzones, etc over and over each day if you wish. Even when they add new pvp stuff, it can be redone again if you wish. It hasn't been done to where you can only do one map one time, now has it?

 

OPS- Same thing.

 

That's the problem as I see it. They have made the story a one time deal and not able to do again should you want and then it is like an afterthought. This is why I see story individuals so upset at the way it has been handled. It is like they are the red-head step child (and I can say that being a red-head myself) .

 

Instead of the bickering back and forth about the content, the blame should lie at the feet of the devs and they way they are handling the situation. While I am not a pvp player I understand the some like pvp (my boyfriend does) and while I don't do ops anymore, I have and those can be fun with the right group. I also like the story aspect and I like to do things solo at times and then sometimes I want to group up with people (of my choosing) for things as well.

I’ve just read your post after the one I just made before this. You will see that I agree with you, that’s been my whole point in my discussions, but she failed to understand what I was saying. From my perspective, all I got from back is “story most important” “the rest isn’t”..” so it can suffer” “because we’ve gotten poor quality, didn’t get what we wanted, QQ, so the Devs need to fix that before they allocate resources to any other part of the game”

I get why story people are pissed at the Devs, but the rest of the game shouldn’t be made to suffer this year because story people didn’t get the quality, quantity or their requested content. That’s not our fault, it Biowares.

Yes, I can see how passionate you guys are and I’m starting to understand why you want more details to a lay your fears of a repeat. But attacking what other core players content has been announced just because the Devs haven’t communicated enough with you isnt the way to go. It pisses everyone off and puts us against each other.

I think you’ll find most of the people here arguing with the “story” people, understand story is important and know that it will get the biggest slice of the resources pie. We get that and mostly agree. What we don’t get is the holy than now attitude that the rest of us aren’t entitled to anything until story is addressed and the Devs communicate with story people. What’s so wrong with the Devs telling the rest of us what the plans are for OPS, FPs and PVP?

Maybe if more effort was put into petitioning the Devs for more story details or plans and less about why story deserves more at the expense of others, then we wouldn’t have these essay length discussions and the Devs might actual see the story peoples posts and not roll their eyes when they see the community split and arguing over stuff like this.

All the QQing, page after page of what looks like self entitlement, is likely to make them skip over some important stuff story people have to say.

Good explanations, both of you. I didn't realize you couldn't do the stuff past KOTET over again...I think making ANY part of the story a one time thing is a tremendous error...pure foolishness tbh. After all the time it takes to create story, it MUST BE replayable (on the same toon) or it's a waste of resources.

Yes, I agree on that.

I also like Dasty’s idea of allowing story only people to have a story mode Flash point option. This would add a heap more replayable content for those guys to do.

Maybe they can give them an Overpowered droid companion as well as their normal companion, the same as they’ve done before. I dont know how much work that would take, but it would have to be much less than trying to re-do the flashpoint mechanics and required damage-Healing needed.

When you think about it, there wouldn’t be anything stopping them from doing something similar for solo story Operations. Just add some superduper, overpowered droid companion to join the player and their normal companion that can both keep them alive and deal a truck load of damage at the same time. It doesn’t matter how stupidly easy it is because the story people are only there for the story content. The only caveat I would put in is they cannot not get the same rewards or drops that group people get from those OPS.

This would actually add a lot more story for the story people and then OPS content actually becomes their content too. So it’s a win-win for both story and group whenever new OPS are added. Story people would essentially be getting a “two for the price of one” deal.

Good explanations, both of you. I didn't realize you couldn't do the stuff past KOTET over again...I think making ANY part of the story a one time thing is a tremendous error...pure foolishness tbh. After all the time it takes to create story, it MUST BE replayable (on the same toon) or it's a waste of resources.

That would be fantastic. That should include the Alliance Alerts. Those are such toss-aways, as it is. They could even make silly daily/weekly missions with them. Some of the alerts would be great to play through again.

Setting aside whether one liked the quality of the story of Iokath (personally, I thought it was fine if a bit cliche). And setting aside the issue of we would all like to see more...I don't see the problem with the Iokath / Theron traitor model.

 

You have a good hour of solo / pure story content interspersed with cut scenes leading up to Crisis on Umbara -- the first FP released in over two years. Like in SoR, the FP's (think Blood Hunt for SoR) advanced the story. Perhaps a reasonable change would be:

 

1) Add more cut-scenes / story to FPs; and something I have long advocated...

 

2) Make FPs repeatable on Story Mode to see different choices, but make it like KotFE / ET so that your first choices stick.

 

You can't really make the story mode FPs groupable, at least Crisis on Umbara and Traitor Among the Chiss, however, since you have dedicated companions integral to the story; i.e., Theron / Lana.

 

Dasty

 

Edit: P.S. Didn't comment on the companion issue since I think it is pretty uniformly held that the returns are underwhelming. Fortunately, I long ago internalized that RP / companion immersion is all in the head -- and outfits!

The problem with story mode via FP is that you have to play it all through in one sitting and sometimes that just plain sucks.

5. What I was referring to as "entitled" was not asking for more story. You are welcome to do so. However, claiming that (as the person I was quoting was claiming) suddenly, because there is something other than story being presented (not to the exclusion of story, but side by side) that they don't matter is an entitled attitude. It basically means that you aren't willing to even stand on even ground. Which you are allowed to have that opinion, and generally I agree that story is what makes SWTOR unique, but refusing to have anything but story? Seems like a bad idea to me..

So, I am entitled now? I think you misunderstood my post. What I took umbrage with were the posts clearing stating that people who only do story shouldn't even sub. That they can do story without subbing and it is a waste of money unless you do OPS or PVP. I wasn't demanding more story at the cost of other aspects of the game, I wasn't demanding anything at all. In fact, I wasn't even asking. It just bothered me a bit to be treated like a second-class citizen because I prefer one aspect over another. Sorry, your money's no good here.

In any case, this whole argument is a never-ending carousel that goes round and round and loses its point. The devs will do what they please in the end. Perhaps if they do more OPS and PVP the players will return, perhaps not. At this juncture, I doubt more story is going to end the woes. All those ships have sailed and the port is empty.

Peace.

As someone who doesn’t really play story, I don’t think that’s fair. 15 mins of story isn’t replayable the same as Operations, flash points or pvp.

I would tend to agree but there have been people posting here that think even the minute or two we currently get is too much. As I posted elsewhere, I think the way to go about it is to abandon the idea of a "story" flashpoint and create the group content from the story content.

1) create a "chapter" of story content

2) add flashpoint mechanics to the chapter and take out most of the cutscenes/convos then drop in a couple of flashpoint bosses at chokepoints. Then you have basically the same thing as the Umbara or Traitor flashpoints but the "story content" doesn't feel like a dumbed down flashpoint.

3) Pseudo operations could be constructed from the flashpoints by upgrading the NPCs to Ops level, then adding unique Ops bosses between several linked flashpoints. That way you get Ops type content on a more regular basis than you would from creating brand new ones (If it takes 18 months to get a full raid, I would think raiders would be happy to have something raid-like in between)

That gives everyone something and reuses a lot of content to do it, hopefully simplifying the process. Of course there will be the people who complain that it is not focusing enough on their gameplay style because it has its basis in "story" content. Several KotFE and KotET chapters could have been converted into decent flashpoints but the uproar about "using story content for group content" would be deafening (though there doesn't seem to be an issue with using "group content for story content" from those same people)

The problem with story mode via FP is that you have to play it all through in one sitting and sometimes that just plain sucks.

I agree that can be an issue. I think the trend within the industry (taking WoW and SWTOR as examples) is to shorten them or have them doable in wings. But, yes, I take your point. I'm lucky since I don't have kids so it is easier to appreciate the sort of epic nature of going into a FP for the first time. I typically dim the lights, open a bottle of wine and have at it.

I thought the way BW handled the SoR instances was perfect since most people can block a 30 minute period at some point in their lives. And even if you have to change diapers, stop the cat from attacking the dog, you can usually be AFK long enough that you aren't booted.

But to your point, one of my favorite FP's lore-wise is False Emperor to wrap up the Darth Malgus storyline (but is it truly wrapped up? Duh duh duh....) Since I like to do the bonus objectives, and look around, I know I need a good hour to complete it. The FP's after that, fortunately, have all been noticeably shorter.

With that said, and this will be meaningless to those who didn't play WoW, and I'm doing this only because I want to be a jerk and bring back horrid memories...I would just like to throw out a couple words that will likely send old time WoW players people into apoplexy: 1) Original Sunken Temple; 2) Original Blackrock Depths: and 3) Heroic Shattered Halls. Wow, I'm a _____.

Hugs,

Nasty Dasty

I would tend to agree but there have been people posting here that think even the minute or two we currently get is too much. As I posted elsewhere, I think the way to go about it is to abandon the idea of a "story" flashpoint and create the group content from the story content.

 

1) create a "chapter" of story content

2) add flashpoint mechanics to the chapter and take out most of the cutscenes/convos then drop in a couple of flashpoint bosses at chokepoints. Then you have basically the same thing as the Umbara or Traitor flashpoints but the "story content" doesn't feel like a dumbed down flashpoint.

3) Pseudo operations could be constructed from the flashpoints by upgrading the NPCs to Ops level, then adding unique Ops bosses between several linked flashpoints. That way you get Ops type content on a more regular basis than you would from creating brand new ones (If it takes 18 months to get a full raid, I would think raiders would be happy to have something raid-like in between)

 

That gives everyone something and reuses a lot of content to do it, hopefully simplifying the process. Of course there will be the people who complain that it is not focusing enough on their gameplay style because it has its basis in "story" content. Several KotFE and KotET chapters could have been converted into decent flashpoints but the uproar about "using story content for group content" would be deafening (though there doesn't seem to be an issue with using "group content for story content" from those same people)

I don't agree with trying to gate story behind group play. For years, I had to endure getting the start of a story, only to learn the ending is gated behind an OP or group FP. As a solo player I'd never get to see the endings. And if they gate story into group activities, then I will never get to see a story and there goes my reason to remain.

I thought they'd learned their lesson, when they allowed the FPs to be played and enjoyed by solo-ers because it finally meant I could see the endings to the stories and get to enjoy the whole thing. The godbot was a great idea because it opened up tons of story that I previously didn't get to experience.

Gating story behind group activity isn't right or good for the game. Story has to be available to all people, whether they are solo players or group players. As far as I'm concerned, it would be great if there was a proper ending for soloers for the whole Oricon thing. They have to keep story accessible and if they persist in putting it in FP's (which I hate because there isn't enough story in them) then they have to at the very least allow a story mode where a person can solo through to experience the story.

I agree that can be an issue. I think the trend within the industry (taking WoW and SWTOR as examples) is to shorten them or have them doable in wings. But, yes, I take your point. I'm lucky since I don't have kids so it is easier to appreciate the sort of epic nature of going into a FP for the first time. I typically dim the lights, open a bottle of wine and have at it.

 

I thought the way BW handled the SoR instances was perfect since most people can block a 30 minute period at some point in their lives. And even if you have to change diapers, stop the cat from attacking the dog, you can usually be AFK long enough that you aren't booted.

 

But to your point, one of my favorite FP's lore-wise is False Emperor to wrap up the Darth Malgus storyline (but is it truly wrapped up? Duh duh duh....) Since I like to do the bonus objectives, and look around, I know I need a good hour to complete it. The FP's after that, fortunately, have all been noticeably shorter.

 

With that said, and this will be meaningless to those who didn't play WoW, and I'm doing this only because I want to be a jerk and bring back horrid memories...I would just like to throw out a couple words that will likely send old time WoW players people into apoplexy: 1) Original Sunken Temple; 2) Original Blackrock Depths: and 3) Heroic Shattered Halls. Wow, I'm a _____.

 

Hugs,

 

Nasty Dasty

Agree about SOR being darned near perfect. AND, you've just given me flashback nightmares. You really went there, lol. Thanks a bunch.

Cheers

I'd be fine with the everybody gets the same amount of content approach. So for the next patch, OPs players should get 1 boss (15 minutes of play), the FP players should get 1 flashpoint (15 minutes of play), "story players should get 15 minutes of story content not tied to any other content, and PVPers should get a new map. There we go, even.

 

Going forward each month we can do the same one OPs boss in one difficulty level, 1 flashpoint in 1 difficulty level, a new PVP map, and 15 minutes of story (a Chapter). That seems fair doesn't it.

If they really did this I'd be happy with it.

If they really did this I'd be happy with it.

Sure. But right now they cant even get a forum post out in a month 😂😂😂

 

I don't disagree with really anything you said except 3 (and about the gameplay being intense, but I did stuff Vet/Master mode first chance I got, and those were more intense than the FPs imho, but I know not everyone played those). I actually think if you include the Iokath storyline, there was a fair bit of story equal to a couple KOTFE chapters (I mean a couple KOTFE chapters had not much story, so not a high bar). But that did come out over a year ago (though still in 2017) so for the rest of it I can agree, and as I mentioned, I'm not "moralistically opposed" to having some solo player conclusion to Oricon/Gods(I think the people who have been clamoring for this for years would be quite disappointed tbh though, they really are not impressive), but the amount of resources it would take means that I would argue against BW doing so when they could provide new content instead.

 

I enjoyed this discussion too Clearly we are mortal enemies, but it doesn't mean we can't be polite about it

But of course. Even the Empire and Republic have worked together, no reason we can't have a chat.

For Oricon, they've taken away the purple quest (main story) designation from Oricon so people dont' get inadvertently roped into it. That's something. I do agree that at this point it's far more important to do new content, as much as I'd like to see solo paths for Oricon and Iokath. What I hope, though, is that Bioware will finally learn that ending story chains with Ops isn't cool, and will not do it again with future story arcs (I know, what future story arcs, but hope springs eternal).

Iokath was certainly vastly better, and had more story, than the two flashpoints, but yes, over a year ago.

For the more intense gameplay, perhaps that is one of the differences between group and solo players. If you are running everything on Veteran or MM and are used to doing Ops, the two flashpoints might not have been too intense. For me, a solo player who is more accustomed to lower-level flashpoints and more laid-back story quests, taking my tank through Umbara and Copero was very unpleasant. Mob after mob after mob, a very long slog to kill the bosses, and no real breaks. My DPS was easier, but still a pain. My characters are fairly well geared (one had about a 246 rating when she did Copero and Umbara, the other was 230s), and I've been able to one-shot many bosses in flashpoints and most of the ones in KOTET/KOTFE.

They did have to nerf the story mode of Copero because so many people were having trouble or finding it very unpleasant, and the players who were complaining were ones who usually did *not* complain about difficulty. But the bosses had HPs in the millions, and there were all those platinum mobs, which are things that usually seem to be in the higher difficulty modes.

That seems to indicate, at least to me, that even the content that is ostensibly supposed to be for story players is being designed with the group player population in mind; those who are more experienced with the VM and MM flashpoints and ops and perhaps have more BIS gear and augments. Not the story/solo player who likes a challenge but doesn't like that intense of a challenge. Shoving the story into the flashpoints makes this a problem.

They put story into FP's for one reason only, i allows them to check off the "We Provided Group Content" and the "WE provided Story Content" boxes at the same time. We are well into maintenance mode here.

Adding content is maintenance mode?

Adding content is maintenance mode?

Adding just enough to keep people believing it's still being worked on is "maintenance mode"...they're trying to "maintain" some of what they have, not grow.

They put story into FP's for one reason only, i allows them to check off the "We Provided Group Content" and the "WE provided Story Content" boxes at the same time. We are well into maintenance mode here.

Adding content is maintenance mode?

Adding just enough to keep people believing it's still being worked on is "maintenance mode"...they're trying to "maintain" some of what they have, not grow.

Play through the main game, and look at the mission Jedi Prisoner, which tied into the Taral V / Maelstrom Prison set of flashpoints. This was non-required 'story' content, given in the form of flashpoints. And they are a couple of the better flashpoints from the original content.

Story and FP can go together. In fact, it is *better* when a flashpoint has a good story.

Life is change. Sub and play, or don't. The game will go on, even if the more vocal members of this forum are no longer here to complain about it.

My point was not that it was GREAT story. My point was that it was not nothing. Even if you didn't like that something, it was something.

 

 

 

No, we all got KotFE and KotET... whether it fit, suited us, entertained us or not. But we still got it.

You are basically saying, "it doesn't matter how much there was, how good it was, how appropriate for your character it was, you still got something".

Well, by that token everyone got something.

PvP got 8 months of "class balancing". Sure, it wasn't new content, it wasn't done particularly well, a lot of what you asked for was never delivered, some of what was delivered you never asked for, and not all of it was appropriate to PvP - but you still got it.

All The Best

Adding just enough to keep people believing it's still being worked on is "maintenance mode"...they're trying to "maintain" some of what they have, not grow.

No, it's not. "Maintenance mode" is a defined phrase in programming whereby the program is "complete" and all you do is bug-fix. If anything is being added, it's not maintenance mode. It's doesn't mean they are trying to "maintain" the number of players.

You are an intelligent guy. I expected better.

You are basically saying, "it doesn't matter how much there was, how good it was, how appropriate for your character it was, you still got something".

 

Well, by that token everyone got something.

PvP got 8 months of "class balancing". Sure, it wasn't new content, it wasn't done particularly well, a lot of what you asked for was never delivered, some of what was delivered you never asked for, and not all of it was appropriate to PvP - but you still got it.

 

All The Best

Of course that's what she is saying. -- and she is right. Everything you just said is inherently subjective. You may not have liked the story, or thought the class balancing was inadequate, but others may disagree. In point of fact, I know they do because I've been reading the forums for well over a year now and opinions are divided, as is to be expected.

But if you play the game solely for story and you have hated the last 2.5 years of story, it sort of begs a different particular question, but I digress.

The point she is making is as simple as it is elegant as it is correct. The first FP and OP in over 2 years were introduced. That is an empirical and undeniable fact. Your personal like or dislike of it doesn't enter into anyone's equation but your own -- as it should be.

It really is that simple.

Dasty

Of course that's what she is saying. -- and she is right.

Yes, she is; and so am I with my follow up comments.

We ALL got something.

All The Best

Yes, she is; and so am I with my follow up comments.

 

We ALL got something.

 

All The Best

With the notable and demonstrably proven exceptions of Flashpoints and Operation Bosses. Pay attention to the time period she is talking about.

Dasty

With the notable and demonstrably proven exceptions of Flashpoints and Operation Bosses. Pay attention to the time period she is talking about.

 

Dasty

So the ppl who didn't get FPs and OPS also missed out on Class Balancing, and what little story we got?

No, they got that, it just wasn't what they wanted to get.

Just like KotFE/ET wasn't what I wanted to get.

We ALL - every single player - got "something"; even if we didn't actually want it.

All The Best

So the ppl who didn't get FPs and OPS also missed out on Class Balancing, and what little story we got?

 

No, they got that, it just wasn't what they wanted to get.

Just like KotFE/ET wasn't what I wanted to get.

 

We ALL - every single player - got "something"; even if we didn't actually want it.

 

All The Best

This is my final comment to you...because as is so often the case, let's just agree to disagree.Your statement is vacuously true -- yes, we all got something but that is such a banal statement that it is boring and meaningless in this context. Just because you state something truthful; i.e., we all got content -- doesn't make it relevant to the far, far more interesting conversation or topic at hand.

To wit: You at least had the opportunity to offer an opinion on the content you like -- in this case story.

Those who like FP's and OPs weren't afforded even the opportunity to evaluate their preferred content (though liking group content is not mutually exclusive with liking story) because the null set contained ZERO items to evaluate.

It really is that simple. Peace out,

Dasty

No, it's not. "Maintenance mode" is a defined phrase in programming whereby the program is "complete" and all you do is bug-fix. If anything is being added, it's not maintenance mode. It's doesn't mean they are trying to "maintain" the number of players.

 

You are an intelligent guy. I expected better.

by your definition, adding one preprogrammed generic npc to fleet every 6 months would keep it out of maintenance mode. You got new content..even if it doesnt talk, move or interact with you in any form, it is new.

by your definition, adding one preprogrammed generic npc to fleet every 6 months would keep it out of maintenance mode. You got new content..even if it doesnt talk, move or interact with you in any form, it is new.

True, but an entire operation (at least it will be soon), a couple fps, a PvP map, a stronghold, and some story is a bit of a far cry from them tossing another deco on fleet.