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Lvl 75 Gate Splits Game In Two, Undermining "Play As You Want"

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Lvl 75 Gate Splits Game In Two, Undermining "Play As You Want"

TrixxieTriss's Avatar


TrixxieTriss
05.31.2019 , 06:56 AM | #11
I agree with Joon, Lhance and Phazon.

I want to add my own voice that opening up the currency so the Vanilla game and lowbies and Mids will once again mesh with end game is vital for the games continued health.

5.0 did effectively kill lvling up in pvp (which is how I used to exclusively lvl’d my extra Alts) It may not have been intended, but that’s the consequence of the gearing system they introduced with 5.0

6.0 is a fresh chance to fix this flaw and all it requires is looking into Joon’s suggestion to integrate the new currency and RXP from lvl 1 or even lvl 10 (which is when you can start pvping).

Darevsool's Avatar


Darevsool
05.31.2019 , 07:18 AM | #12
I watched/skimmed the stream late last night, but I felt pretty happy with what they said was going to take place regarding gearing.

Gear drops are going to happen in flashpoints. They're going to happen anywhere you got cxp drops. Ops bosses, FP bosses, etc.

The armor shells with newly built in set bonuses will be what drops.
The armorings/mods/enhancements that match your level will be added by you from however you acquire them.

I didn't feel any of this was implied that it ONLY happened at level 75.

Now, admittedly, if you're talking about new END GAME level gear...the new components and what not, since end game means highest level/hardest content (to me anyway) that makes sense you'd start working toward that at level 75 in 6.0. Actually, compared to now, you'd conceivably have part of it done since the shells with set bonuses drop during all parts of the game, not just at 75.

Now, if you're a player who ONLY PVP's, or RP's, the impression I got was that you could RE drops you don't like into some new type of currency (the "Chuck bucks" they joked about in the stream) and spend those at a vendor for specific gear if you weren't getting it any other way.

They didn't say it was only at 75, I'm taking that, until proven otherwise (because they mentioned it was for the armor shells), that it can happen before 75.

How that works, or doesn't work, specifically with PVP, I don't know. I skipped the PVP part of the stream, it doesn't really apply to me and I didn't have time to watch the entire thing.

Long story short, I don't think it will be as bad as you (OP) are fearing it's going to be.


In the mean time, start saving all your command crates. ALL of them. if they get converted to the new system command crates, you'll have ways to get new gear very quickly once 6.0 hits.
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Joonbeams's Avatar


Joonbeams
05.31.2019 , 08:47 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by ceryxp View Post
I think you did miss a point. Galactic Renown will be a completely supplemental system for acquiring gear because we will now be getting direct gear drops. From all over the place. It was clear to me from the stream that they're turning TOR into a Monty Hall campaign. For anyone not familiar with DnD, a Monty Hall campaign is one where a generous Game Master (the Devs) award the players with huge amounts of treasure. The relevance of Galactic Command and GC crates for gearing is being replaced by direct gear drops, gear drops will be everywhere, and will be based upon our item rating.
You're still not getting what the OP is about. It's not about whether GR is primary, supplemental, etc. It's not about gearing...

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ceryxp
05.31.2019 , 09:38 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Joonbeams View Post
You're still not getting what the OP is about. It's not about whether GR is primary, supplemental, etc. It's not about gearing...
Then you've done a very poor job of communicating your point. Your OP is riddled with language about gear:
  • "Acquiring Items at 75" - read gearing
  • Galactic Renown XP (RXP) and the "new currency" won't be obtainable until level 75 - an assumption that admittedly needs clarification but one that doesn't really jibe with the language of the stream
  • The worst part of GC/5.0... was the effect on base/vanilla game play... [and progressing] from level one to the max level, earning better GEAR
  • PVP comms earned "while leveling that were usable at max-level," and PVE crystals "that were usable at max level" - to acquire gear at max level
  • "5.0 changed that and erected an arbitrary brick firewall... until you hit level 70, you couldn't do anything in the base game to earn CXP, currency, etc. toward the max-level game play - i.e. GEARING because that's all CXP and it's currencies are used for
  • "this means that low/mids PvP will remain shriveled as happened with 5.0... why invest in it if you can't earn any useful rewards/XP/currency from it" - does not jibe with the language of the stream, bolster in PVP will be max gear rating, and gear can be acquired from PVP as stated in the stream
  • Galactic Command killed low/mids PvP - GC is all about gearing but you insist that your post is not about gearing
  • "it's about class stories... and all the awesome stuff in the base game. It's all "unrewarding" (what rewards are you wanting?)... until the arbitrary level 75?" - based on? Are you asking to receive end game gear from your first mission on your starter world?
  • "Devs... are claiming a goal of "Play What You Want," [which is] a great goal for me... but if I can't earn the 6.0 goodies by enjoying the parts of the game I love... then "play what you want' rings hollow." - So you want set bonuses and tactical items and end game gear in low level, which has never been the case

Except for the section about end game and max level your whole post is about gearing. Point after point is about gearing and how 5.0 screwed up everything by gating all progression beyond level 70. The only part I agree with you on is that they need to clarify whether RXP is earned from level 1 or only at level 75 (or some other arbitrary level). The way it was phrased makes me think that RXP will be earned from level 1. This is based on a number of things from the stream.
  • Gear from GR crates will be based on item rating not GR level
  • RXP will be earned along side XP; even at max level since it will be calculated based on the amount of XP one would have received
  • GR levels will reset at various points and one's GR level will be an indicator of how much they have played
If I'm wrong about GR, that RXP will only be earned at max or higher level, then I agree that is a mistake based upon everything else that was said during the stream. My impression is that it won't be gated by level and that is something that Eric needs to clarify sooner rather than later; regardless of their intent for GR to be a supplemental system for acquiring gear.

But, even if GR is gated behind some level, the fact is it is a supplemental system for acquiring gear and everything that comes from GR can be acquired from simply playing the game since we'll now be getting gear drops from just about everywhere.

ETA: I apologize if I'm coming off as argumentative. I'm not trying to be. I'm not feeling well (going on three weeks with a sinus infection) and it's probably coming through in my posts.
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TrixxieTriss's Avatar


TrixxieTriss
05.31.2019 , 09:54 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by ceryxp View Post
Then you've done a very poor job of communicating your point. Your OP is riddled with language about gear:
  • "Acquiring Items at 75" - read gearing
  • Galactic Renown XP (RXP) and the "new currency" won't be obtainable until level 75 - an assumption that admittedly needs clarification but one that doesn't really jibe with the language of the stream
  • The worst part of GC/5.0... was the effect on base/vanilla game play... [and progressing] from level one to the max level, earning better GEAR
  • PVP comms earned "while leveling that were usable at max-level," and PVE crystals "that were usable at max level" - to acquire gear at max level
  • "5.0 changed that and erected an arbitrary brick firewall... until you hit level 70, you couldn't do anything in the base game to earn CXP, currency, etc. toward the max-level game play - i.e. GEARING because that's all CXP and it's currencies are used for
  • "this means that low/mids PvP will remain shriveled as happened with 5.0... why invest in it if you can't earn any useful rewards/XP/currency from it" - does not jibe with the language of the stream, bolster in PVP will be max gear rating, and gear can be acquired from PVP as stated in the stream
  • Galactic Command killed low/mids PvP - GC is all about gearing but you insist that your post is not about gearing
  • "it's about class stories... and all the awesome stuff in the base game. It's all "unrewarding" (what rewards are you wanting?)... until the arbitrary level 75?" - based on? Are you asking to receive end game gear from your first mission on your starter world?
  • "Devs... are claiming a goal of "Play What You Want," [which is] a great goal for me... but if I can't earn the 6.0 goodies by enjoying the parts of the game I love... then "play what you want' rings hollow." - So you want set bonuses and tactical items and end game gear in low level, which has never been the case

Except for the section about end game and max level your whole post is about gearing. Point after point is about gearing and how 5.0 screwed up everything by gating all progression beyond level 70. The only part I agree with you on is that they need to clarify whether RXP is earned from level 1 or only at level 75 (or some other arbitrary level). The way it was phrased makes me think that RXP will be earned from level 1. This is based on a number of things from the stream.
  • Gear from GR crates will be based on item rating not GR level
  • RXP will be earned along side XP; even at max level since it will be calculated based on the amount of XP one would have received
  • GR levels will reset at various points and one's GR level will be an indicator of how much they have played
If I'm wrong about GR, that RXP will only be earned at max or higher level, then I agree that is a mistake based upon everything else that was said during the stream. My impression is that it won't be gated by level and that is something that Eric needs to clarify sooner rather than later; regardless of their intent for GR to be a supplemental system for acquiring gear.
I think you missed the point. But I can understand how as Joon had a lot to get out. But the gist is this :

1. Allowing the RXP and Chuck Bucks be obtainable as you lvl up would incentivise people to play certain content as they lvld and not feel like they have to rush to lvl 75 to participate in the system. That is what Joon means. People can then enjoy all aspects of the game at a reasonable lvling rate and not feel they need to but pushing lvl 75 content to gear up. It gives them something to work towards.

2. GC changed the way you could save up for pvp gear as you lvld up. This did kill off lowbie and Mids pvp because people got no rewards for playing it. On top of that, gearing in 5.0 was so horrendous and unfriendly to Alts that people forgot about rerolling new toon’s because they had to spend all their time grinding at lvl 70 to gear one Alt. That also meant less people lvling up in lowbies and Mids.


I think that covers the most important points.

jedimasterjac's Avatar


jedimasterjac
05.31.2019 , 10:01 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by TrixxieTriss View Post
1. Allowing the RXP and Chuck Bucks be obtainable as you lvl up would incentivise people to play certain content as they lvld and not feel like they have to rush to lvl 75 to participate in the system. That is what Joon means. People can then enjoy all aspects of the game at a reasonable lvling rate and not feel they need to but pushing lvl 75 content to gear up. It gives them something to work towards.
How does that not already happen now, though?

You're arguing that you should be able to gain ranks for a supplementary system to end-game gearing. Galactic Renown offers nothing more than that.

The fact that all gear obtained through Galactic Renown will be Bound to Legacy negates this being necessary. There's no reason for a supplementary end-game system to begin pre-end-game. At the least, acting like this is "being hit with a truck," or something similar, as OP said, is a pretty gross exaggeration.

Quote: Originally Posted by TrixxieTriss View Post
2. GC changed the way you could save up for pvp gear as you lvld up. This did kill off lowbie and Mids pvp because people got no rewards for playing it. On top of that, gearing in 5.0 was so horrendous and unfriendly to Alts that people forgot about rerolling new toon’s because they had to spend all their time grinding at lvl 70 to gear one Alt. That also meant less people lvling up in lowbies and Mids.
I think you're making a conclusion where we don't have evidence. Mids PvP in particular never popped very frequently; with current XP leveling rates, it isn't necessarily efficient to do warzones.

The "gear being unfriendly to alts" issue is already negated, for reasons I've listed in my previous response. 6.0 gear will be Legacy gear, which will, of course, mean that it will be absolutely alt-friendly! A single toon could theoretically provide gear for any alts and specs you need.
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Darevsool's Avatar


Darevsool
05.31.2019 , 10:26 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by TrixxieTriss View Post
I think you missed the point. But I can understand how as Joon had a lot to get out. But the gist is this :

1. Allowing the RXP and Chuck Bucks be obtainable as you lvl up would incentivise people to play certain content as they lvld and not feel like they have to rush to lvl 75 to participate in the system. That is what Joon means. People can then enjoy all aspects of the game at a reasonable lvling rate and not feel they need to but pushing lvl 75 content to gear up. It gives them something to work towards.

2. GC changed the way you could save up for pvp gear as you lvld up. This did kill off lowbie and Mids pvp because people got no rewards for playing it. On top of that, gearing in 5.0 was so horrendous and unfriendly to Alts that people forgot about rerolling new toon’s because they had to spend all their time grinding at lvl 70 to gear one Alt. That also meant less people lvling up in lowbies and Mids.


I think that covers the most important points.
For your point #1, what's the goal for pushing to get "Chuck Bucks" and RXP before level 75? If I remember the stream correctly, and it looks like I'm going to need to review it again, that new currency would be used to get armor shells (and other gearing pieces) with specific set bonuses. They stated that the shells would be available from drops in many places in the game, and given how they explained it I interpreted it as that would be at all levels. That the empty armor shells would not be level specific.
I'm not sure what's changing for the negative.

2) I haven't looked at the pvp section of the live stream, so I can't comment one way or the other.
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Joonbeams's Avatar


Joonbeams
05.31.2019 , 04:12 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by ceryxp View Post
Then you've done a very poor job of communicating your point. Your OP is riddled with language about gear:
....

ETA: I apologize if I'm coming off as argumentative. I'm not trying to be. I'm not feeling well (going on three weeks with a sinus infection) and it's probably coming through in my posts.
Not About Gear
As to being argumentative, I felt as if you were. But then I saw this last part and I understand. So, on this we're cool. I'm not trying to argue, not trying to prove anything. I actually hope I'm wrong about my interpretation of the livestream. But again, I don't see how I can be clearer that I'm not talking about gear.

Even taking the parts you quoted that are "riddled" (i've edited them out for simplicity), I'm repeatedly talking about "RXP" and "currency". Over and over and over again: "RXP" and "currency." I actually went back and looked at the post and the only times I mention the word "gear" is in the section on "counter arguments" that I wanted to address up front. I don't see how it can be any clearer that I'm not focusing on gear than the fact that I don't even use the word. So again, this really is not about gear, other than the fact I suppose since this is an MMO - everything is about gear in some way. If that's your point, fine. Noted. But let me try again (since you say I've done a "very poor job") to explain what this is about.

Different Rewards for the Same Gameplay
Let me offer an illustration that you can think about over the rest of the post. Starting with GC (and especially with the Master's Datacron), you could take a toon, start it at level 70, and do nothing but base class stories from Tython to Corellia and earn CXP, UCs, crates, etc. just doing this content, i.e. without doing "endgame" content. Another player, doing the exact same content, but doing it at level 1-69 wouldn't earn any of these things. So again, 'endgame' and 'max-level' are not synonyms. The devs intentionally wanted people to be incentivized to play any content they wanted to in the game -- and that's a good goal. But doing the same content and getting nothing does not create the same incentives as doing that content and getting at least something. This made doing content pre-70 feel unnecessarily walled off, and discouraging.

The Base Game Playstyle
What Trixx, Lhance, and others have pointed out is that there is a playstyle out there (I'm not alone with it) that involves re-rolling toons and trying new things in the base game. For me, it's replaying class stories, leveling slowly, doing low/mid PvP. Low/mid PvP was one of the most fun parts of the game for me (as someone with very very little time to play) because I could try out new classes and styles while leveling. It's also worth noting that low/mids PvP requires a different set of tactical considerations, and actually is a unique gameplay option in it's own right from lvl 70 PvP.

That's what's kept me subbed since launch. If this isn't your playstyle, you may be unable to empathize. I know many people think of this game as the game after level 70 (usually for endgame "content" reasons). I get that. And understand it. But there is a substantial portion of the player base (not a majority prolly, but more than a trivial minority), that think of this game mostly as vanilla class stories, heroics, and mid/lows PvP. For us, the game kinda dies after reaching max level, and so we re-roll and start over. We enjoy this playstyle. But, like many, we also enjoy parts of the "endgame" so we'd like easily pivot to the endgame (where it actually would be more about gear) whenever we decided to use our currencies and not feel like our previous play was 'wasted.' This is quintessential "play as you want."

Why 5.0 Was a Step Backward for the Base Game
Now, recall the illustration above. The principle problem with 5.0--for my playstyle--is that there were new game currencies, rewards, ranks, and XP that were only available after level 70. To be clear, we've always had gear that was only available at max level (hence why this isn't about gearing), and we've always had content that was only max-level (hence why this isn't an "endgame" issue). What 5.0 did that was new, and IMO a step backwards, was that it: a) separated the ability to earn game currencies from pre-max level players, and b) actively discouraged playing base game content before being a 70 (for at least the reason in "a"). Which leads to the final point.

This Simple "Fix" Hurts No One
This has had a substantial negative impact on the game pre-70, particularly in low/mid PvP, but not only there. It made leveling to 70 feel like a chore, because, unlike pre-GC, you couldn't progress your toon. And this 'gating' doesn't do anything to make the game better for people of other playstyles, so it's one of the many areas where the fix I'm requesting doesn't harm anyone, but it could help some. I usually advocate for these. So my ask is to please make the currencies and RXP available from level 1....

cibacrome's Avatar


cibacrome
05.31.2019 , 04:56 PM | #19
I am in this for endgame content, but I suspect the majority of players, purely numbers-wise, are of the kind Joon is describing - casual players who enjoy the class stories (vanilla and beyond), flashpoints, and a bit of space barbie now and again.

These players tend to come and go, perhaps not as dedicated to logging in as 'endgame' tryhards but I bet their sub and cartel $$ spend just as good as ours.

Endgame Ops and PvP'ers are passionately vocal (i.e. loudmouths with bad manners XD) so maybe it seems like there's more lol!

TrixxieTriss's Avatar


TrixxieTriss
05.31.2019 , 05:57 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by jedimasterjac View Post
How does that not already happen now, though?

You're arguing that you should be able to gain ranks for a supplementary system to end-game gearing. Galactic Renown offers nothing more than that.

The fact that all gear obtained through Galactic Renown will be Bound to Legacy negates this being necessary. There's no reason for a supplementary end-game system to begin pre-end-game. At the least, acting like this is "being hit with a truck," or something similar, as OP said, is a pretty gross exaggeration.


I think you're making a conclusion where we don't have evidence. Mids PvP in particular never popped very frequently; with current XP leveling rates, it isn't necessarily efficient to do warzones.

The "gear being unfriendly to alts" issue is already negated, for reasons I've listed in my previous response. 6.0 gear will be Legacy gear, which will, of course, mean that it will be absolutely alt-friendly! A single toon could theoretically provide gear for any alts and specs you need.
I was just pointing out what Joon was saying. No need to pull my post apart and argue