I can't blame you. For years commandos have been paperclips seriously underpowered defense wise.

 

Trolls and haters aside, this thread is for you all who are willing to learn and adapt. Some fellow commando & merc players will hate me for this but we are as easily countered as any other class.

 

Now I can't force you all to change but I can try to show you your errors and make you realize there is a way to win against a class which is finally equal to yours.

 

Bad habits die last.

Everyone is so fixated and trained like a dog running a parkour they don't realize what the hell kind of stupid skill spam they actually do on enemies commando / merc. Just because It worked in the past didn't mean it was ever a good idea.

 

Change is never easy and mostly not welcome but it's necessary.

 

 

Let me ask you some questions:

Do you spam all your hardcap and softcap CC on a bubbled sorc?

Do you keep firing all your damage abilities on a bubbled sorc?

Unloading all your damage rotations On a Mara running his massive Damage reduction?

Wasting all your burst on a doge roll scoundrel / Ops?

Do you keep spamming your ranged heavy hitters on a Jugg running his reflect?

 

....and so on.

 

Point is you are used to do it on commando & mercs for years because we really couldn't do anything about senseless CC stunlocks, interrupts and your own defense skills. Now we can, just like your fellow <insert other class>.

 

I now played roughly 50 matches since Saturday. In all those matches I 've nit seen a single player being mindfull of what ue actually does throw at me.

 

Juggs tanks and skanks and maraudes wasting all their cc for an initial stunlock jumping on me activating their own defense skills and then....well they die 30 seconds later disgracefully. But what do you expect throwing all your utility away in the beginning of a fight?. It worked before because you could wear the last breath down because we lacked all the nice things you have.

 

I could write now two essays over individual counters but I keep it stupid and simple.

Fight the bad habit and fight us like you fight a fellow sin/mara/jugg /ops rep side class.

 

We have defense skills now just like you and you can expect us to use then to maximum effect just like you.

Don' try to stunlock us / snare / root when we have our reflect, selfheal or free running up.

 

Remember you don't throw your stuns ob a low hp sorc when you know he has his bubble left and isn't a total derp.

 

Don't pop your combat stealth and immediate ambush us when we still have full hp. You don't do that on anyone else, don't do it on commandos and mercs anymore.

Edited December 8, 2016 by -sasori

So a ranged class, which has one of, if not the best, burst and DPS in the game, have self heals, immense amount of mobility, electro net, very good self heal even as a DPS spec, now has a sorc bubble, but wait! Unlike the sorc, he can move, dps, and self heal, and if he gets hit during the ability, he will get healed more.

 

I don't see anything wrong here. Perfectly balanced!

tl;dr

 

You and everyone else know they are. Dropping the Ole, l2p argument, anyone not realizing they are op needs to l2p.

And sorcs weren't op in 4.0 ayyy lmao

I can't blame you. For years commandos have been paperclips seriously underpowered defense wise.

 

Trolls and haters aside, this thread is for you all who are willing to learn and adapt. Some fellow commando & merc players will hate me for this but we are as easily countered as any other class.

 

Now I can't force you all to change but I can try to show you your errors and make you realize there is a way to win against a class which is finally equal to yours.

 

Bad habits die last.

Everyone is so fixated and trained like a dog running a parkour they don't realize what the hell kind of stupid skill spam they actually do on enemies commando / merc. Just because It worked in the past didn't mean it was ever a good idea.

 

Change is never easy and mostly not welcome but it's necessary.

 

 

Let me ask you some questions:

Do you spam all your hardcao and softcap CC on a bubbled sorc?

Do you keep firing all your damage abilities on a bubbles sorc?

Unloading all your damage rotations On a Mara running his massive Damage reduction?

Wasting all your burst on a doge roll scoundrel / Ops?

Do you keep spamming your ranged heavy hitters on a Jugg running his reflect?

 

....and so on.

 

Point is you are used to do it on commando & mercs for years because we really couldn't do anything about senseless CC stunlocks, interrupts and your own defense skills. Now we can, just like your fellow <insert other class>.

 

I now played roughly 50 matches since Saturday. In all those matches I 've nit seen a single player being mindfull of what ue actually does throw at me.

 

Juggs tanks and skanks and maraudes wasting all their cc for an initial stunlock jumping on me activating their own defense skills and then....well they die 30 seconds later disgracefully. But what do you expect throwing all your utility away in the beginning of a fight?. It worked before because you could wear the last breath down because we lacked all the nice things you have.

 

I could write now two essays over individual counters but I keep it stupid and simple.

Fight the bad habit and fight us like you fight a fellow sin/mara/jugg /ops rep side class.

 

We have defense skills now just like you and you can expect us to use then to maximum effect just like you.

Don' try to stunlock us / snare / root when we have your reflect, selfheal or free running up.

 

Remember you don't throw your stuns ob a low hp sorc when you know he has his bubble left and isn't a total derp.

 

Don't pop your combat stealth and immediate ambush us when we still have full hp. You don't do that on anyone else, don't do it on commandos and mercs anymore.

 

WRONG... And in every possible meanig of this word.

Dude I feel sorry for you because clearly you are just troll or really have no idea what are you speaking of

And sorcs weren't op in 4.0 ayyy lmao

Dps sorcs was OP in 4.0 right...

Healers yes their was it's true but not dps ffs.

Dps sorcs was OP in 4.0 right...

Healers yes their was it's true but not dps ffs.

 

Oh please the worst game mode for sorc dps in 4.0 was team ranked they were stupid in both regs and solo ranked. And even in their worst game mode they were still viable and decent.

So a ranged class, which has one of, if not the best, burst and DPS in the game, have self heals, immense amount of mobility, electro net, very good self heal even as a DPS spec, now has a sorc bubble, but wait! Unlike the sorc, he can move, dps, and self heal, and if he gets hit during the ability, he will get healed more.

 

I don't see anything wrong here. Perfectly balanced!

 

What is your point? Arguments, you don't have any you run into my boltstorm without a weapon equipped.

 

Here are some: Ranged means nothing if so called melees have root/ free snare stacking (slows), cc ranged not to mention self runnspeed buffs oh and did I mention ranged stuns and in my facejumping.

Ranged is a strawman argument taken from the good old ranger and warrior fantasy rpgs and does not reflect swtors reality. If you get kited you either need to learn your own gap closers to use effective and or start to invest into utility boons in your skill tree not just moar damage.

 

You know what, commandos spend at least two points to be actually able to have a chance at kiting. Most spend three. How many did you invest in your build? Let me guess...

 

Burst is an empty shell wording. just because we have burst it's not best. Empirical data already proves that for 5.0. Your just making things up.

 

How many ultimate last resort skills deny you to keep dealing damage aside from the sorc bubble? Maras, sins, ops snipers, juggs ...yeah.....

 

Oh the good old electro net, let's talk about imminent immunity to stealth scan, all dot removal and 10second rolls. Or how about my back paddling jump doesn't work when getting rooted and effectively countered. Or electro net Can be resisted? Point is you try to paint a picture about how unfair it is that we have a limited counter while you have 'unfair' defense skills in the first place, and you have counters yourself.

 

Very good selfheal, yep just depends what you consider good, I personally Can extend my life by a fair amount. Point is you won't outheal straight up damage. The amount Can be debuffed, interrupted and setback with a long castime. The remaining heal amount of average 10k hp per bacta or instant med probe is less than other classes get for free as passive damage reduction. Just because you see your healing it doesn't mean you don't have anything, doesn't mean you are left out.

 

We had better heals 4.0 damage scaling and hp pool upsizing made the heal amount weaker in 5.0

So that can't be your point?

You mean our new shield utility if slotted and reflect? That's a L2P issue on your end. It only heals when you keep hitting it just like with juggs.

 

Ironic that the broken OP 'heals' you claim we have are a result of your own doing.

Edited December 8, 2016 by -sasori

Oh please the worst game mode for sorc dps in 4.0 was team ranked they were stupid in both regs and solo ranked. And even in their worst game mode they were still viable and decent.

 

Well you have right viable and decent... But three thing:

1). It's only madness sorceres

2). Lightning suck as hell in PvP 4.0 (evry class could eat Lightning Sorcerer in 3 hits, now it's 4-5 hits)

3). Viable and decent doesn't mean OP

So a ranged class, which has one of, if not the best, burst and DPS in the game, have self heals, immense amount of mobility, electro net, very good self heal even as a DPS spec, now has a sorc bubble, but wait! Unlike the sorc, he can move, dps, and self heal, and if he gets hit during the ability, he will get healed more.

 

I don't see anything wrong here. Perfectly balanced!

 

so I jumped out into the pvp field at lvl 70 in 5.0 I'm a dps jug, enemy had:

 

2 merc

2 dps jug

1 madness sorc

 

I'm sure they had more but my job was to hold grass and that's all that came my way it was very active I learned really quick then when you see the orange bubble you mezz and switch targets... then you come back after... mercs didn't get any harder then that (or so it seems to me), they didn't take any less damage then they normally did, only difference was if I saw the orange bubble and didn't mezz they got full heal, no damage done to them, and could keep attacking.

 

The sorc I felt bad for... they did like no damage to me, died like paper shredded in a hurricane, and didn't get nearly as much healing as they use to.

 

My team did a great job focusing fire this is true... my team knew when to use mez and not to break them, this is also true I think what I'm saying is if you focus fire and know when to mez commando gets a 4 second break from being the anvil on which we slam. What made sorc so ruff was all the huge dps died so fast... so it was hard to catch a sorc in the death window before everything came back up.

 

Please rebuff sorc, always nerf operatives (and does really no one notice how powerful sin is atm?)

so I jumped out into the pvp field at lvl 70 in 5.0 I'm a dps jug, enemy had:

 

2 merc

2 dps jug

1 madness sorc

 

I'm sure they had more but my job was to hold grass and that's all that came my way it was very active I learned really quick then when you see the orange bubble you mezz and switch targets... then you come back after... mercs didn't get any harder then that (or so it seems to me), they didn't take any less damage then they normally did, only difference was if I saw the orange bubble and didn't mezz they got full heal, no damage done to them, and could keep attacking.

 

The sorc I felt bad for... they did like no damage to me, died like paper shredded in a hurricane, and didn't get nearly as much healing as they use to.

 

My team did a great job focusing fire this is true... my team knew when to use mez and not to break them, this is also true I think what I'm saying is if you focus fire and know when to mez commando gets a 4 second break from being the anvil on which we slam. What made sorc so ruff was all the huge dps died so fast... so it was hard to catch a sorc in the death window before everything came back up.

 

Please rebuff sorc, always nerf operatives (and does really no one notice how powerful sin is atm?)

 

But your post has logic...and an obvious skill factor attributed in recognizing opponents abilities! Your post is rubbish because what the masses want isn't smart play...they want to tunnel and get pissed when it doesn't work the way they wanted!!!

 

on a serious note....we can...without any sort of snide remarks or attitudes 100% legit say to all the ******sandmoaners that you really need to learn how the mechanics work....just like this guy did!

To be clear, we're talking about Arsenal / Gunnery, right? Because I don't think that Bodyguard is OP. I haven't messed with IO since the patch, but presumably it will be similar (minus Chaff Flare).

 

Yes there is one new high profile DCD that everybody knows about and everybody needs to learn to stop tunneling during said DCD activation. But wait, THERE'S MORE!! I'm not going to patronize Merc / Mando players by stating the obvious, but there are a few new really strong utilities that put it over the top. Arsenal is now just as tanky, if not more tanky, than Vengeance. I'll just leave it at that.

And sorcs weren't op in 4.0 ayyy lmao

 

Deflecting really doesn't address where Mercs are now. Mercs definitely needed a focus swap DCD. They got three. And kept the best burst in the game.

 

But please do keep up the defense, the hypocrisy from the people who used to whine about Sorcs is amazing to watch. I hope they don't change anything. Watching these rhetorical contortions is quite amusing.

Deflecting really doesn't address where Mercs are now. Mercs definitely needed a focus swap DCD. They got three. And kept the best burst in the game.

 

But please do keep up the defense, the hypocrisy from the people who used to whine about Sorcs is amazing to watch. I hope they don't change anything. Watching these rhetorical contortions is quite amusing.

I wouldn't say they got three focus swap DCDs. Definitely one. The other two that I think you are referring to, via utilities, are insane heals. But that doesn't require somebody to stop shooting them. Still OP, no doubt.

 

Sorc healers were undoubtedly the best pvp healers in 4.x. Madness was decent in solo ranked, Lightning was kind of meh. I feel like sometimes we generalize without specifying exactly which discipline we are talking about.

Arsenal Merc is my main. I would agree perhaps these defensive abilities need some number adjustments, but I would strongly argue against heavy nerfs on them. This class needed these abilities, Mercs/Mandos have been and were being focused out in PVP, while multiple other classes have had stronger defensive cooldowns with strong dmg output.

 

My biggest advice for non-merc/mando players is accept that we are no longer squishy free kills.

I wouldn't say they got three focus swap DCDs. Definitely one. The other two that I think you are referring to, via utilities, are insane heals. But that doesn't require somebody to stop shooting them. Still OP, no doubt.

 

Sorc healers were undoubtedly the best pvp healers in 4.x. Madness was decent in solo ranked, Lightning was kind of meh. I feel like sometimes we generalize without specifying exactly which discipline we are talking about.

 

The KO change is at least a mini-swap.

 

But I'm seriously OK with it. Mercs needed the buff. But the healing on energy shield annoys me because it is better than Corrupted Barrier was but Corrupted Barrier got nerfed.

The KO change is at least a mini-swap.

I guess it kind of is. That thing is pretty ridiculously strong. Unless there are about 5 DPS beating on you, you'll heal to 70%. It can be burst through, just like Jugg Enraged Defense, but I dare say that ED is not even as strong.

everyone knows commandos /mrecs have been easy marks in pvp after there 1st nref in 1.3. and were nearly pointless after 3.0 .

now we can survive more then 45 sec and everyone is all butthurt

Right before 5.0 mercs could hold their own the players got use to fighting the current buffs at a bit too much even more my taste and I see a lot of the newer skills and ulities could have been something PT's could have used since their survivability is still a joke since guard cannon isn't saving a single PT right now while Mercs can heal to full 3 times. It just leaves a bad taste knowing other classes can't survive like mercs can now on their own.

Right before 5.0 mercs could hold their own the players got use to fighting the current buffs at a bit too much even more my taste and I see a lot of the newer skills and ulities could have been something PT's could have used since their survivability is still a joke since guard cannon isn't saving a single PT right now while Mercs can heal to full 3 times. It just leaves a bad taste knowing other classes can't survive like mercs can now on their own.

 

Thats the one class that got the shaft in 5.0 well them and juggs. PT just got nothing I support all the mercs buffs going to pt.

everyone knows commandos /mrecs have been easy marks in pvp after there 1st nref in 1.3. and were nearly pointless after 3.0 .

now we can survive more then 45 sec and everyone is all butthurt

 

Couldn't agree more. All these whiners seem to be ignorant of the fact that 2 of the 3 things they are complaining about require the enemy to continually perform single-target attacks against the mercenary for them to have any effect whatsoever. The third (kolto surge) is on a 3 minute cooldown and can still be bursted through, especially with trauma. I think people are just mad that they can't mindlessly tunnel a mercenary anymore and be rewarded for it. Learn to play.

Mercs are currently OP, sorry to say. While the reflect itself is fine, its short enough, and it IS a L2P issue if you keep hammering on a merc or commando that has it on.

 

However lets take a closer look at mercs DCDs right now:

 

Kolto overcharge : Speed heal to 70% with an heroic utility, not even legendary, and pretty much a 10 second win button, because it heals fast enough to keep your health at 70% even when focused by 2-3 people (makes sorc's quick self heal look like a kolto shot).

 

To this, you add a 6 second total immunity to all direct damage, melee, tech, force and ranged (most other class with reflects have to spec into it with a legendary. SIn spend a legendary utility point to get their reflect (and will most likely leave either boosted shroud, phantom stride's assassinate proc or vanish heals to take it) and jugs have only 3 seconds baseline, legendary utility to spec it to 5, and it doesnt cover melee damage (on many classes, you just see the reflect and switch to that type of damage if you have it. Its a win button against ranged classes, but not an overall one).

 

Sin's legendary utility also only cover forces and tech, and its not an absorb, which is the big kicker.

 

And finally, sorc gets full immunity to all damage, but ccs themselves doing so. Also 3 minutes cooldown, have to spend utility points to get it shorter, vs 2 for merc's reflect.

 

on this, you can add a softer but quite effective dcd in energy shield, which also can spec to heal up to 75% of your health when it collapse.

 

This is all also availaible to merc healers, might be useful to say.

 

To this you add electro net, which can prevent stealth class from using their vanish, prevent ANY speed buff or gap closer, deals extra damage if the target even attempts moving for 9 seconds.

 

Then you add Hydraulic override, which breaks snares and roots and protects you from them for 6 seconds (10 if a masterful utility is selected, and in pvp, it should be).

 

Then you have 2 skillful utility to get a permanent 40% snare with your filler attack, and to transform missile blast into a root every 8 seconds (lot shorter than any other hard root in game).

 

You can also spec into cure if you wish to reduce your dot damage, but currently not too many dot spec in wz, so I wouldnt bother. But the option is there (100% uptime is possible).

 

Additionnaly, you have what used to be the top ability of the heal tree in 1.0 and 2.0 baseline in emergency scan. An instant, quite generous heal even for dps. You can also choose to sacrifice some dps by foregoing a railshot for an instant rapid scan.

 

And finally, you have the usual hard stuns, medpac, adrenal etc. Arsenal also have a BASELINE ability that makes their decoy a force/tech immunity for up to 5 attacks in 10 seconds (which, in a 1vs1 against say a sorc, means you have again another damage immunity against them for 5 GCD)

 

There is currently no tools in the game that a class has that merc do not have, safe perhaps stealth lol. On top of this, arsenal has very good damage, very good burst, is ranged (yes its important, because a lot of the previous tools can be used by melee to get to you, but you can also use yours to keep them away, and keep them slowed/rooted. They have their own cc, snare and root break, but mostly not as many as you, and most require a utilty point in masterful or legendary to exist, and are on longer cooldowns than your rocket out, assassins being the exception with the return of a short cd force speed) and do enjoy heavy armor, which gives them a slight blunt DR reduction vs many other classes.

 

 

There is no way a good merc will lose 1vs1 to another class assuming you play your cards right.

 

Now our saving grace is most merc you encounter in WZ aint that smart. But even when I see a player is bad, if its a merc I do have to think a bit about how to engage and how to play my cards right.

 

I currently main a deception assassin in pvp, which I can confess is a very strong pvp class as well, but I never have the tools merc have, and they have an answer for most of them, as well as numerous self-heals as mentionned, and not small ones either.

 

Now of course if you get caught pants down with all your dcds on cooldowns you get melted...don't ask for a buff for that, its the case of every single classes. Truth is merc are currently top dog by far in both pve and pvp dps wise. They are very desirable in pve for all the mentionned previous qualities, has they make very sturdy ranged dps, with very easy target switching and burst, generous aoe and reflect in pve can be used to deal massive damage to some bosses. Especially reflect/absorb, has it allows you to reflect damage you couldnt even think about standing on otherwise. (ex fire on karraga).

 

So something has to go sometime, and insisting everything is fine is only going to make the eventual nerfhammer harder.

 

But then again, with 2 out of 3 people in the dev team maining merc/mando, perhaps the class will remain the golden child of SWTOR. It certainly has gotten a few goodies and little to no nerfs with every big class balance patch of the last few years.

 

I personnaly think the reflect is fine, just balance both the merc's and jug's so that they stop standing in bad and getting **** numbers in pve. It also needs a small drawback somewhere or a duration reduction to 4 seconds. Also, the heal on damage should be a masterful or legendary utility, forcing a choice with something else.

 

But currently no class ever enjoyed as many DCDs or utility as merc does without being a tank spec at the very least, and never so many as powerful as they are.You can look around the other classes, and I can assure you, safe an AoE mez and stealth, there is nothing someone else can do that arsenal merc cannot do better right now.

 

I challenge you to grab a sorc and challenge a good merc to a 1vs1. Even if we could pit 4.0 "OP" madness vs current merc, I'm putting my money on the merc.

I'm speaking specifically in PvP as I do not PvE. If you know what you are doing, a merc can be downed in under a minute, easily. It's this concept of staying on a target while they have defensive cooldowns on that seems so difficult for people to grasp. While in most cases this simply makes your damage against them ineffective, the merc changes actually punish people for being stupid and continuing to dps through cds. Simply attack a merc until they pop cds, then either cc them or switch targets until they are over. It's really that simple. If you are taking the kolto overcharge talent you are invariably giving up either 30% stun and AoE dmg reduction or another buff to energy shield (power shield). Both of these talents also have merit to them. Not everyone even takes the kolto overload buff. You can kill though it too, don't pretend like you can't.

 

It is ignorant to say that because you can't immediately 1v1 a class then it is overpowered. Mercs can easily be 1v1d if you simply pay attention to cooldowns and don't let them take advantage of the heals. I don't know how else I can say it. If you're going to compare each individual talent for all classes to a merc then why not just get rid of classes altogether? Everyone is now a lvl 70 outlander with all the same talents and abilities. Maybe then people can finally give up critical thinking altogether and just mash buttons to their heart's content.

Just lul at all saying merc is not op

I have been playing a Jugg since private beta in July and mercs are now FINALLY a challenge in the right hands. Before I would straight up ignore mercs or just kill them quickly so I can continue on my rampage. Now I actually have to pay attention to what they are doing and even then it's still not that hard. They pop orange bubble, cc and move on and come back to them when it goes away. Exact same thing you do to a Jugg when ED or Reflect is up, a Sorc with bubble up, or a mara with undying rage up. All you will do is waste your time, attacks and maybe even heal them depending on what they are. It really isn't all that hard.