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Kaggath Series: Darth Traya vs Revan


Beniboybling

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Given the right circumstances, a stalemate is possible. But it also gives Traya time to make plans. Remember: Apathy is death! Traya would see Revan's plan as a weak one and exploit it. While the blockade makes leaving nearly impossible, a stalemate is difficult to maintain. Revan has to keep a fleet at Malachor in order to keep a stalemate. This comes down to Traya finding a way to exploit Revan's strategy. I can't think of way, but I'm sure the Force would show her what to do.

 

But (as Beni said) she has zero ships. Unless Revan attacks Malachor, then nothing happens.

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K well that doesn't seem fair. That pretty much forces Revan into a very undesirable situation.

 

I just don't think it's fair that Revan can blockade the entire planet, outnumber Traya, and still lose. Malachor V has become a superweapon.

 

By that logic, the Repbulic fleet has become a superweapon as it is suicide to fight it openly.

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K well that doesn't seem fair. That pretty much forces Revan into a very undesirable situation.

 

I just don't think it's fair that Revan can blockade the entire planet, outnumber Traya, and still lose. Malachor V has become a superweapon.

The key word here being 'become' - not my fault Traya is so clever she can turn a planet into a super-weapon, she's just a genius *shrugs*

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By that logic, the Repbulic fleet has become a superweapon as it is suicide to fight it openly.

 

Not exactly. It was the Republic fleet along with Revan's ability to lead them that made them dominant.

 

I'm being very serious to say that ALL that Traya has to do is sit on Malachor and she wins. Revan can't bombard her forces, he can't starve her forces, he can't fight his forces ('cause his own will go insane), and he can't beat Traya herself because she's in a nexus of the dark side.

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Not exactly. It was the Republic fleet along with Revan's ability to lead them that made them dominant.

 

I'm being very serious to say that ALL that Traya has to do is sit on Malachor and she wins. Revan can't bombard her forces, he can't starve her forces, he can't fight his forces ('cause his own will go insane), and he can't beat Traya herself because she's in a nexus of the dark side.

 

Which means Traya wins. It was inevitable. Per Kaggath rules, Revan must engage her. And if he does he will die. Or Traya makes him her apprentice. Which still means she wins as she has taken from his power base.

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OK, I think this debate has explored every possible variable. And I've made a decision (as impossible as that was)...... which will be revealed in the next thread!

 

Seriously though, great debate. I'm pleased to say that this has been by most popular thread ever, and despite being about Revan did not erupt into a flame war. It probably holds the record for the most give up-come back moments as well. (Yes, your all guilty) I hope you continue to be as comprehensive and articulated as you have been here. You may be pleased to know the next debate will be less... fiery.

 

and on that note, Lord Kaan vs?

Edited by Beniboybling
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Which means Traya wins. It was inevitable. Per Kaggath rules, Revan must engage her. And if he does he will die. Or Traya makes him her apprentice. Which still means she wins as she has taken from his power base.

 

Yup. I just lost a debate that was impossible to win. Malachor prevents Revan from receiving ANY of the advantages of blockading a planet. Someone explain to me how this fight was remotely fair?

 

Sorry if I'm kinda pissed right now guys. I just don't feel that this Kaggath played out fairly.

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OK, I think this debate has explored every possible variable. And I've made a decision (as impossible as that was)...... which will be revealed in the next thread!

 

Seriously though, great debate. I'm pleased to say that this has been by most popular thread ever, and despite being about Revan did not erupt into a flame war. It probably holds the record for the most give up-come back moments as well. (Yes, your all guilty) I hope you continue to be as comprehensive and articulated as you have been here. You may be pleased to know the next debate will be less... fiery.

 

and on that note, Lord Kaan vs?

 

Yes. Despite the outcome, it has been very fun. Lot's of good thinkers here.

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OK, I think this debate has explored every possible variable. And I've made a decision (as impossible as that was)...... which will be revealed in the next thread!

 

Seriously though, great debate. I'm pleased to say that this has been by most popular thread ever, and despite being about Revan did not erupt into a flame war. It probably holds the record for the most give up-come back moments as well. (Yes, your all guilty) I hope you continue to be as comprehensive and articulated as you have been here. You may be pleased to know the next debate will be less... fiery.

 

and on that note, Lord Kaan vs?

 

Glad to see this didn't become another flame thread too!

 

MasterMe and I were discussing a winners and losers bracket so that we could give the winners and losers another chance. Sort of like a tournament. Then the winners of the two brackets could face off to decide the ultimate victor! Good idea?

 

And I can't wait to see who Lord Kaan is going up against. Naga Sadow's army?

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And I can't wait to see who Lord Kaan is going up against. Naga Sadow's army?

That's the point, you tell me :D

 

I've recently begun reading the Bane Trilogy - awesome by the way - and became intrigued by the Brotherhood of Darkness.

Seriously this has got to be Darth Krayyt, it would be an immense battle of two pretty mighty Empires.

Darth Krayyt? I did consider this but my complete lack of knowledge for post-ROTJ made be hesitant. But if you believe it would be a good match I'll do some research. Thanks for the suggestion :D

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That's the point, you tell me :D

 

I've recently begun reading the Bane Trilogy - awesome by the way - and became intrigued by the Brotherhood of Darkness.

 

Darth Krayyt? I did consider this but my complete lack of knowledge for post-ROTJ made be hesitant. But if you believe it would be a good match I'll do some research. Thanks for the suggestion :D

 

Naga Sadow and Darth Krayt are good choices. I'm kinda leaning towards Malak's Sith Empire. Or maybe the Galactic Empire? Though you would have to exclude Thrawn and Palpatine. How about Empress Teta? So many factions to choose from. :)

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Yup. I just lost a debate that was impossible to win. Malachor prevents Revan from receiving ANY of the advantages of blockading a planet. Someone explain to me how this fight was remotely fair?

 

Sorry if I'm kinda pissed right now guys. I just don't feel that this Kaggath played out fairly.

 

Agreed, Malachor was a superweapon at the end, one Kreia had no control over so I don't see how she's a genius just sitting there while the storm beasts and gasses and darkside energy thin out Revan's forces for her. =/

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Agreed, Malachor was a superweapon at the end, one Kreia had no control over so I don't see how she's a genius just sitting there while the storm beasts and gasses and darkside energy thin out Revan's forces for her. =/

I can assure you I've taken everything into account. And whether Malachor was a death trap or not would not have altered the outcome.

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I can assure you I've taken everything into account. And whether Malachor was a death trap or not would not have altered the outcome.

 

And if the battle wasn't at Malachor how would she win? If Malachor wasn't a death trap? It decided the battle before it began.

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This talk of bombardment is foolish at best. If we are under the impression that Revan knows Traya is at Malachor, then Traya knows he is coming.

 

As soon as Revan's fleet comes out of hyperspace, they begin the bombardment. They aim wildly in an attempt to hit the Academy. Suddenly, the Triumvirate fleet comes out of hyperspace behind Revan's fleet. Caught off-guard, Revan's fleet takes heavy losses as they turn to engage the enemy fleet. But by the time they turn around, the enemy has vanished. But not before Assassins sneak onboard a couple of Revan's ships.

 

The bombardment resumes, but suddenly, multiple Haamerhead frigates fire upon their allies. The Assassins have taken control of multiple frigates and are firing on the Republic ships. But then the Triumvirate fleet returns. The Assassin ships and the Triumvirate fleet quickly defeat the Republic fleet.

 

Revan doesn't get a chance to bombard the Academy.

 

1. Revan's fleet outnumbers the Sith fleet. Like, by a lot. So why are you assuming that a) Revan would for some reason be unprepared to be attacked by ships and b) take heavier losses in his massive fleet than the Sith would with their much smaller fleet? It makes no sense.

 

2) "Assassins sneak onboard a couple of Revan's ships". How? In the scenario you gave, they can't just "sneak" on as they would need ships to do so, and ships are not as invisible as the assassins. So a lot of assassins die trying to get their ships onto Republic ships, and even then, Revan knows SOMETHING is up since nothing seems to come out of the boarding party ships.

 

3) "the assassins have taken control of multiple frigates". Again, how? The takeover of the ship we saw in KOTOR 2 took a while, and tons of people on these ships are going to have plenty of time to report that some **** is going down before the Assassins have control of the ship. Which gives Revan options of sending his own men into the ships to clear out these assassins, or simply shoot his own ships down if he thinks it'd be better use of his resources.

 

For some reason people seem to think these Assassins are some sort of trump card that wins the battle for Kreia, but their strength lies in the shadows, and choosing their battles. If Revan is forcing a direct engagement in which the assassins need to board Revan's ships while in space, while Revan is anticipating boarding parties...then there goes surprise, their MAIN advantage.

 

If taking over multiple Republic ships was so easy to do, these assassins would have DONE that already in KOTOR 2, taking over Republic ships that wouldn't be expecting it, and not full of battle ready troops. But given that they didn't, we can pretty much assume it's not as easy as some people are making it out to be. The only ship we DO see them take is alone, not full of soldiers, not exactly battle prepared, brought a derelict ship onboard (which is what let the assassins into the ship in the first place), and they had Darth Sion with them as well. So essentially the absolute ideal situation for them.

 

And what indication do we have that these assassins know how to operate massive Republic ships? They certainly didn't capture the one from KOTOR 2 and add it to the Sith fleet, did they?

Edited by NasalJack
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1. Revan's fleet outnumbers the Sith fleet. Like, by a lot. So why are you assuming that a) Revan would for some reason be unprepared to be attacked by ships and b) take heavier losses in his massive fleet than the Sith would with their much smaller fleet? It makes no sense.

 

2) "Assassins sneak onboard a couple of Revan's ships". How? In the scenario you gave, they can't just "sneak" on as they would need ships to do so, and ships are not as invisible as the assassins. So a lot of assassins die trying to get their ships onto Republic ships, and even then, Revan knows SOMETHING is up since nothing seems to come out of the boarding party ships.

 

3) "the assassins have taken control of multiple frigates". Again, how? The takeover of the ship we saw in KOTOR 2 took a while, and tons of people on these ships are going to have plenty of time to report that some **** is going down before the Assassins have control of the ship. Which gives Revan options of sending his own men into the ships to clear out these assassins, or simply shoot his own ships down if he thinks it'd be better use of his resources.

 

For some reason people seem to think these Assassins are some sort of trump card that wins the battle for Kreia, but their strength lies in the shadows, and choosing their battles. If Revan is forcing a direct engagement in which the assassins need to board Revan's ships while in space, while Revan is anticipating boarding parties...then there goes surprise, their MAIN advantage.

 

If taking over multiple Republic ships was so easy to do, these assassins would have DONE that already in KOTOR 2, taking over Republic ships that wouldn't be expecting it, and not full of battle ready troops. But given that they didn't, we can pretty much assume it's not as easy as some people are making it out to be. The only ship we DO see them take is alone, not full of soldiers, not exactly battle prepared, brought a derelict ship onboard (which is what let the assassins into the ship in the first place), and they had Darth Sion with them as well. So essentially the absolute ideal situation for them.

 

And what indication do we have that these assassins know how to operate massive Republic ships? They certainly didn't capture the one from KOTOR 2 and add it to the Sith fleet, did they?

 

Isn't it awesome that I created a scenario that was as unlikely to work as Revan bombarding Malachor?

 

And besides, Beni ended the debate and is prepared to declare the winner.

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I apologize Beni, I really do, but I must say one last thing regarding the Kaggath rule: They must fight to the death! I know you've already made a decision (and I totally respect your decision). With that in mind, I'll say it:

 

If this Kaggath rule forces a Kaggath participant into making a decision they would not otherwise note make, isn't the rule flawed? Don't we need to represent these characters as best we can?

 

The truth is this: As impossible as Malachor V is to attack, Revan wouldn't attack it. As I've said, he'd send a strike team in, they'd go nuts, and he'd realize the uselessness in attacking. So Revan wouldn't attack. The only reason he'd end up attacking is because the Kaggath rules state that somebody has to die. I mean, if this rule is what forces Revan to make a poor decision now, then why didn't the rule force Traya to engage Revan in a legit space battle with all of her forces. The truth is, neither of these scenarios are fair, seeing as how neither of the characters would end up making the decisions to get into these scenarios. I feel that a draw/stalemate is the most logical/fair outcome.

 

I know you've already made your decision, but had to say this one last thing. Regardless of you answer, I've enjoyed this battle very much and I greatly enjoy these Kaggath matches you've set up for us.

Edited by MasterMe
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I apologize Beni, I really do, but I must say one last thing regarding the Kaggath rule: They must fight to the death! I know you've already made a decision (and I totally respect your decision). With that in mind, I'll say it:

 

If this Kaggath rule forces a Kaggath participant into making a decision they would otherwise note make, isn't the rule flawed? Don't we need to represent these characters as best we can?

 

The truth is this: As impossible as Malachor V is to attack, Revan wouldn't attack it. As I've said, he'd send a strike team in, they'd go nuts, and he'd realize the uselessness in attacking. So Revan wouldn't attack. The only reason he'd end up attacking is because the Kaggath rules state that somebody has to die. I mean, if this rule is what forces Revan to make a poor decision now, then why didn't the rule force Traya to engage Revan in a legit space battle with all of her forces. The truth is, neither of these scenarios are fair, seeing as how neither of the characters would end up making the decisions to get into these scenarios. I feel that a draw/stalemate is the most logical/fair outcome.

 

I know you've already made your decision, but had to say this one last thing. Regardless of you answer, I've enjoyed this battle very much and I greatly enjoy these Kaggath matches you've set up for us.

 

This is exactly what I was thinking as I read through these last few pages. For some reason Revan is bound to launch a foolhardy assault as per the rules, but Kreia is exempt from having to do the same. She is allowed to fortify a position in the most defendable location in existence, which only works because Revan is FORCED, through no choice of his own, to attack it.

 

The real result of this war, assuming Revan's hand isn't forced, is that Kreia is a prisoner. That's victory right there, imprisoning the enemy leader and high command. The planet is blockaded, and since Kreia has no way to escape, she is imprisoned on an inhospitable planet with Sith of dubious loyalty, while Revan can do whatever the hell he wants now.

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I apologize Beni, I really do, but I must say one last thing regarding the Kaggath rule: They must fight to the death! I know you've already made a decision (and I totally respect your decision). With that in mind, I'll say it:

 

If this Kaggath rule forces a Kaggath participant into making a decision they would not otherwise note make, isn't the rule flawed? Don't we need to represent these characters as best we can?

 

The truth is this: As impossible as Malachor V is to attack, Revan wouldn't attack it. As I've said, he'd send a strike team in, they'd go nuts, and he'd realize the uselessness in attacking. So Revan wouldn't attack. The only reason he'd end up attacking is because the Kaggath rules state that somebody has to die. I mean, if this rule is what forces Revan to make a poor decision now, then why didn't the rule force Traya to engage Revan in a legit space battle with all of her forces. The truth is, neither of these scenarios are fair, seeing as how neither of the characters would end up making the decisions to get into these scenarios. I feel that a draw/stalemate is the most logical/fair outcome.

 

I know you've already made your decision, but had to say this one last thing. Regardless of you answer, I've enjoyed this battle very much and I greatly enjoy these Kaggath matches you've set up for us.

 

Granted the rule can be flawed, but the battle has to end sometime. A stalemate isn't the best conclusion, but if neither of them attack it is the only conclusion.

 

I think I should stress one thing. I think Revan would attack. It would be a dumb move, but he would move all of his forces to attack the planet. Of course, that's my opinion, but I don't think Revan would want to sit around. But if he doesn't attack, there is no real conclusion.

 

We just have to wait and see what the outcome is.

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