So now that we can put the whole "Korriband" nonsense behind us, there's another aspect about that episode that fascinated me.

 

Obviously, there have been several Sith spirits who have existed after death in the EU that pass on their knowledge to the next Sith Lord (Marka Ragnos, Exar Kun, Lord Kallig, etc.). In fact, Exar Kun and Darth Krayt are both Dark Lords whose entirety of Sith knowledge and power was acquired from spirits.

 

So I found it very interesting that in the new Clone Wars episodes, during one of the hallucinations Yoda faced on Moraband, the dark side illusion declared "There is no life after death". Then later when he encounters the Sith apparition of Sifo-Diyas, Yoda talks about the Sith being obsessed with the physical world, to which the apparition responds that it's because that's all there is. The implication here is that the Sith (at least according to this episode) seem to think that when they die, that's it. They dont' become one with the Force, they just cease to exist in any way and become nothing.

 

When you look back to the films, when Yoda mentions how Qui-Gon learned to become a Force ghost, the way he explains it seems to imply that he was the first. Obviously with the inclusion of so many Force ghosts and Sith spirits in the EU, we just assumed that the technique was forgotten and that he rediscovered it. But the idea of the Sith not believing in an existence after death adds a new element of intrigue. It would certainly add on to the reasoning behind why Sidious was so obsessed with finding the secret to immortality. We just assumed it was because he never wanted to relinquish his power to his apprentice. But I imagine if Palpatine didn't think there was anything after this physical life, that after death he wouldn't return to the Force but would just become nothingness; then he'd be even more motivated to find the secret.

 

I'm wondering if this episode has provided with some foreshadowing of a possible future retcon to the nature of the Force and the Jedi and Sith. Perhaps Qui-Gon really was the first Force user to learn how to preserve his consciousness after death, according to this new unified canon they're building. Perhaps all those Sith spirits we saw in the EU were simply dark side illusions pretending to be long dead Sith Lords just like the Bane apparition--we've seen holocron A.I.s provide almost lifelike re-creations of their creator, wouldn't it stand to reason that the Force would be able to do an even better job at it?

 

In the context of SWTOR, there's obviously the issue of the Jedi Force ghosts--in particular, the ghost of the Exile, who helped Revan fight the Emperor for centuries. Assuming the aforementioned retcon ends up coming true, what would that make of her spirit? Perhaps it was the Force itself taking the form of the Exile to help him? Or perhaps the current explanation would stand--that Qui-Gon merely REdiscovered the secret.

 

Anyone have any thoughts to this? Anything that you may need me to clear up in this post?

You can do more as a living being than a Force Ghost. That might be one reason that the struggle to survive and cheat death is so important.

Maybe it turns out like in the dresden files. Ghosts are just imprints of the person who died in the force. The original is gone (possibly somewhere else.) Redeeming the ghosts dissolves them.

i only wish in the future they will address this planet as Korriban again.

From my understanding, Yoda doesn't imply that qui-gon was the first, but rather he discovered a way to communicate after death......

Perhaps re-discover would have made it more clear, because in the episode, it's said that very few ever learn the technique, but that implies that other have, in the past, learned it. Making it seem to me, that Qui-Gon was not the first.

Another interesting thing i took away, was the trials Yoda faced. It seems like they were in-turn, incorporated in the training of Luke Skywalker, early on, on Degobah.

Edited March 8, 2014 by Samoth_Nomad

I just watched it.

 

Qui-Gon wasn't the first. But of a selected few, so to say (whereas "few" might still be thousands, because there was never a number mentioned).

 

And it is Moriban. At least that's how it was pronounced - even rather Moribân or Moribaan.

 

But Qui-Gon might still have been the first - the first one Yoda knew about, or any one of the Jedi Council. Because other "Force Ghosts" apparingly never talked to them.

 

And Moriban - at least where Yoda landed it looked like Korriban from SWTOR - only far more dust storms, no bigger statues, and no sign of anything else than more-than-antique ruins - it's 3000 years later, you know ...

Edited March 8, 2014 by AlrikFassbauer

Its been long since established that the knowledge of how to become one with the Force was lost by the Jedi over the years. The Jedi of this era merely believed the ability to be a legend. So no, no retcons there.

 

Remembering the encounter with the Priestess', they have learned the technique as well.

 

Concerning the Sith take on it, that is far more complex. Sith cannot become Force ghosts as Jedi can because they resist the process. In order to become a Force ghost you have to accept your death, and by doing so you retain your consciousness and can interact with the living if you know how. Sith however cling to life, by anchoring themselves to the place where they died, and so they are slowly torn apart as the Force drags them into the Cosmic Force.

 

So what the spirits say makes a degree of sense. To them a Force ghost is just a residual part of your essence clinging to life, and when you finally let go, you are totally destroyed. They don't see it as another way of existing.

 

Nonetheless each Sith is different in his set of beliefs. Plagueis for example dismissed the existence of Force Ghosts as someone non-supernatural, he perceived it as a persistence of the physical mind in the Force once the body has been destroyed - so in a sense he believed such entities existed in the physical world, they are merely not fully dead.

 

Altogether its all wrapped up in whether you define physical and metaphysical. Does the Netherworld of the Force exist? Or are Force ghosts just Force Users who aren't quite dead yet? And is there really a difference?

Edited March 8, 2014 by Beniboybling

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When you look back to the films, when Yoda mentions how Qui-Gon learned to become a Force ghost, the way he explains it seems to imply that he was the first. Obviously with the inclusion of so many Force ghosts and Sith spirits in the EU, we just assumed that the technique was forgotten and that he rediscovered it. But the idea of the Sith not believing in an existence after death adds a new element of intrigue. It would certainly add on to the reasoning behind why Sidious was so obsessed with finding the secret to immortality. We just assumed it was because he never wanted to relinquish his power to his apprentice. But I imagine if Palpatine didn't think there was anything after this physical life, that after death he wouldn't return to the Force but would just become nothingness; then he'd be even more motivated to find the secret.

 

Well considering the 5 girls who talk to Yoda specifically say they learned how to manifest after death one of them, at minimum was the first. Not Qui-gon. Also, the way I took it (and this is just how I thought they were portraying it) was everything up until the final room was trying to pull Yoda away from learning how to become a force ghost. The 5 girls specifically said that up 'till then they had created ALL the illusions Yoda had seen, INCLUDING the Darth Bane ghost. They were constantly testing Yoda to make sure he was worthy of learning the secrets. The Darth Bane Yoda talked to was created by the five girls. It was not a Sith ghost or illusion, thus anything it said cannot be taken as the Sith beliefs themselves and what Yoda says is what he thinks the Sith think.

Yea I need to throw down the 8 bucks for Netflix this seems like some good stuff

The 5 girls specifically said that up 'till then they had created ALL the illusions Yoda had seen, INCLUDING the Darth Bane ghost.

 

I had thought that the Sith Ghost vwas in that zone they claimed they had no control over ?

I had thought that the Sith Ghost vwas in that zone they claimed they had no control over ?

Bane's body and essence was destroyed on Ambria, there is no way that he could have been entombed on Korriban or appeared as a spirit when a portion of his essence was in Zannah.

 

It could however have just been an illusion created by the temple. Remember Sith Spirits can attack people, Yoda was confident that the ghost was not real and could not harm him, and none of them could.

I had thought that the Sith Ghost vwas in that zone they claimed they had no control over ?

 

I believe they said that after the encounter there and just the ritual room was where they had no control. They said before Yoda entered the ritual room that everything up to that point had been created by them, I believe Bane's ghost falls under that. If I mixed up the order of events I'm sorry but I'm fairly positive.

This was a very awesome discussion. I hope it continues, and sorry I don't have much to add at the moment. Just wanted to say I enjoyed reading this thread. All the questions were key.

 

My question which probably can not be answered here, is how did Qui-Gon Jinn learn to do this and when? And why couldn't he do more, like tell the Jedi Council who the Sith was? And what took him so long to come out? And why only communicate with Yoda? Why not Ben or Anakin? And how come none of the fallen Jedi after Order 66, couldn't do the same?

 

"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine." - Obi-Wan Kenobi

Edited April 8, 2014 by HiddenPalm