Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

What is the point of Watchman?


DarthSealth's Avatar


DarthSealth
10.12.2017 , 05:52 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Trogusaurus View Post
This is an honest question, not just hyperbolic post-nerf wailing. What is the point, functionally, of a discipline when another discipline outperforms it in virtually every way?

Concentration was already competing with Watchman for the top Sentinel parse (and all parses, for that matter) before the nerf. It has superior burst, an easier, less RNG dependent rotation, built-in CC immunity, more opportunities to employ our AoE mez without breaking it with DoTs, benefits more from utilities (such as Jedi Promulgator, Force Fade/Hidden Advance), comparable AoE, and better tools for maximum enemy uptime. Not only does it have all-'round superior utility, Conc now has better burst and sustained DPS. It seems to me that the only thing Watchman offers that Conc doesn't is a few meager raidwide heals, and now even Combat is competing with Watchman's sustained DPS. So, why, in any game mode, should anyone play Watchman anymore?

Furthermore, it's exactly as I said in other threads. The only benefits a DoT Sentinel traditionally offered over other DoT classes were superior DPS, Transcendence (which only breaks roots, no actual immunity even for the user), a slightly more powerful raid buff (with a 3.33% uptime), and slightly better AoE damage reduction. No pushes nor pulls, no self-heal DCD, and horrendously bad uptime for our big DCDs in PvE. Watchman Sentinels were *designed* to out-DPS just about everything they encounter, and the only period in the game when they didn't (3.X), they were absolutely terrible. If Watchman isn't going to be allowed to be top sustained DPS (even among its own discipline trees), its needs better utilities. And don't you dare take this as an endorsement to nerf Conc, because it finally got the buff it rightly needed. Either reverse Watchman's nerf, or give us something new to let it remain remotely relevant.

Again, if a Dev happens upon this, I have a completely honest question. Do you even play your own game? Seriously. As players have outlined in other class threads, this latest round of nerfs were atrocious, with few exceptions. I implore you to reevaluate your philosophy surrounding class changes, and if you refuse to do so, at least do us the courtesy of rolling out utility changes sooner than later. I honestly want to believe that you are trying to do right by the player base with your Roadmap, but by God you are making it difficult.
I donít agree with this whatsoever (Annihilation) can be a total pain in the arse.

Although (Fury) in all due respect has been underperforming for so long it deserves some love especially when it comes to being a PVP spec it lacked behind so much it was abandoned and most actually despised me playing as one which I have since god knows how long.

I shall be honest I have always looked at Annihilation and Carnage as PVE specs which is why I automatically consider them weaker specs which is why I believe they should be.

Until I see actual statistics on Annihilation I will still assume it is superior in DPS because it was the highest parsing spec before the nerf.

The reason I state you canít compare both in a PVE or PVP standpoint is because Annihilation in PVE has better mobility and is able to move around more while leaving damage ticking unlike Fury.
Fury you always need to stay on the target because of resources and if you canít you lose momentum which accounts for loss in DPS through resources and downtime.

Same goes for PVP Annihilation has mobility because of DOTs but Fury doesnít lose its mobility because of immunity to CCs.
So while Fury is immune and Annihilation is stunned if youíre a hardcore player and you have DOTs ticking while stunned youíre still outputting damage.

(Personal opinion)
I segregate all three specs.
Fury as a PVP spec with a little flexibility in PVE.
Annihilation as a PVE spec with a little flexibility in PVP.
Carnage as a PVE spec which I use more or less for solo content.
East End ,Londoner. Cockney a dying breed.
British equates (Sarcasm x Endearment)
Just my referral link:-
http://www.swtor.com/r/FjCtpt

WheresMyWhisky's Avatar


WheresMyWhisky
10.13.2017 , 05:46 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSealth View Post
Until I see actual statistics on Annihilation I will still assume it is superior in DPS because it was the highest parsing .
Just on the parsing side before the nerf fury had the 2nd top dps on parsley barely 30 dps behind annihilation so I think you can safely assume that is now the top parsing spec as everything else was getting nerfs . Opinions seem to vary but from the little parsing I do I reckon anni is about 600 - 700 dps down on where it was some think its nearer 400 but suppose depends on how lucky / unlucky you got on relative parses

Now the high alacrity build peeps are using to get that on fury I am not convinced will translate as well to ops but that has always been the case with parsing.

But anyway for ops if you want to take the best spec it will be either carnage or fury so the op has a point what is the point of watchman now
If you think you can ever have too much Whisky you are wrong

KOTET the expac that actively encourages all PVE player to bugger off to Azeroth, where at least you get content

Eloi_BG's Avatar


Eloi_BG
10.13.2017 , 07:31 AM | #13
If they fix the issue with alacrity, then the numbers might be better balanced. The whole point behind Concentration/Fury parsing really high is because it adapts very well to low crit, which happens when you have high alacrity.

The high alacrity build some are referring to is a consequence of badly rounding up the GCD. If you don't know about the issue read this thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showt...=933260&page=2. From post 18 there is good stuff, with proof in post 28.

Them fixing up alacrity will allow all specs to scale correctly, which makes it easier for them to balance stuff out. We need this fixed, help get dev attention on this.

Also hi Trog.
Nemio the Acceptable Player

DarthSealth's Avatar


DarthSealth
10.13.2017 , 08:02 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by WheresMyWhisky View Post
Just on the parsing side before the nerf fury had the 2nd top dps on parsley barely 30 dps behind annihilation so I think you can safely assume that is now the top parsing spec as everything else was getting nerfs . Opinions seem to vary but from the little parsing I do I reckon anni is about 600 - 700 dps down on where it was some think its nearer 400 but suppose depends on how lucky / unlucky you got on relative parses

Now the high alacrity build peeps are using to get that on fury I am not convinced will translate as well to ops but that has always been the case with parsing.

But anyway for ops if you want to take the best spec it will be either carnage or fury so the op has a point what is the point of watchman now
Iíd say it depends on the Ops you do. All are viable but I wonít say Fury is more viable than Annihilation because of certain mechanics.
East End ,Londoner. Cockney a dying breed.
British equates (Sarcasm x Endearment)
Just my referral link:-
http://www.swtor.com/r/FjCtpt

DarthSealth's Avatar


DarthSealth
10.13.2017 , 08:13 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Eloi_BG View Post
If they fix the issue with alacrity, then the numbers might be better balanced. The whole point behind Concentration/Fury parsing really high is because it adapts very well to low crit, which happens when you have high alacrity.

The high alacrity build some are referring to is a consequence of badly rounding up the GCD. If you don't know about the issue read this thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showt...=933260&page=2. From post 18 there is good stuff, with proof in post 28.

Them fixing up alacrity will allow all specs to scale correctly, which makes it easier for them to balance stuff out. We need this fixed, help get dev attention on this.

Also hi Trog.
You canít fix something that isnít broken.
If this was broken like you suggest it would have been at their attention.
We have 3 autocrit abilities with one actually hitting hard that is raging burst.
Iím not going to include the crit from set bonus gear because every spec has one.

People use this method for specs like Deception, Fury, Lightning, Arsenal. The latter two have lost a lot of their autocrits but I still run alacrity as itís more fun and itís the functionality.

But donít try to take away the functionality of this away because this is a PVP spec.
East End ,Londoner. Cockney a dying breed.
British equates (Sarcasm x Endearment)
Just my referral link:-
http://www.swtor.com/r/FjCtpt

ottffsse's Avatar


ottffsse
10.13.2017 , 08:23 AM | #16
Watchman is still more flexible with it's resource management and has better "group" utility then the other two specs. In terms of DPS all three specs are very close to each other and it is more of a preference and know-how with these specs rather than technical dps limitations. Sure a great carnage player can pull better numbers by design of certain fights but that was always the case. Fury is simply now an alternative option to carnage. Both have pros and cons - cons being tight timed burst window on carnage vs tight rage/centering generation requirements on fury.

DarthSealth's Avatar


DarthSealth
10.13.2017 , 08:43 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by ottffsse View Post
Watchman is still more flexible with it's resource management and has better "group" utility then the other two specs. In terms of DPS all three specs are very close to each other and it is more of a preference and know-how with these specs rather than technical dps limitations. Sure a great carnage player can pull better numbers by design of certain fights but that was always the case. Fury is simply now an alternative option to carnage. Both have pros and cons - cons being tight timed burst window on carnage vs tight rage/centering generation requirements on fury.
Pretty much this.
Itís preference.
Fury is the PVP variant of Carnage.
East End ,Londoner. Cockney a dying breed.
British equates (Sarcasm x Endearment)
Just my referral link:-
http://www.swtor.com/r/FjCtpt

Eloi_BG's Avatar


Eloi_BG
10.13.2017 , 10:07 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSealth View Post
You canít fix something that isnít broken.
If this was broken like you suggest it would have been at their attention.
We have 3 autocrit abilities with one actually hitting hard that is raging burst.
Iím not going to include the crit from set bonus gear because every spec has one.

People use this method for specs like Deception, Fury, Lightning, Arsenal. The latter two have lost a lot of their autocrits but I still run alacrity as itís more fun and itís the functionality.

But donít try to take away the functionality of this away because this is a PVP spec.
I should know better than to argue with you but w/e. First things first, I am not trying to "take away" anything from anyone. The fact that alacrity is rounded up in a weird way hurts everyone (even fury), but I have to admit it hurts some more than others.
We were all surprised when Shyroman realized that it was acting like it is. Truth is no one ever really looked at it. If you have evidence other than "someone should have noticed by then" please provide it. Since this was discovered weeks ago, no one ever brought up anything to prove it wrong. Please check the actual parsely proof, and if you dont believe it test for yourself. Many of us have tried to prove it wrong but ended up finding it was true.
Nemio the Acceptable Player

memerobot's Avatar


memerobot
10.13.2017 , 10:09 AM | #19
Well, its easy to say how Anhihilation is in bad position right now compared to the other two.

1 - Parses lower than the other 2 specs(even though should be higher and everyone acknowledges that).
2 - Has terrible target switching(since you need to do pretty good dot spec, specially in PvP where majority of people is basically running ranged specs when doing serious games, so good luck spreading sh*t and in PvE its situational), due to the rotation reset.
3 - **** heals (even together with the utility from Legendary of +1% per attack) as you can say they are basically none, honestly. Plus, they are pretty much only effective when spreading the dots.
4 - Carnage has the 'net' effect few seconds, for 1,5s, which is pretty nice to screw some healers and dps that try to escape + hue damage when everything clips into Ferocity and has increased defense rating(even if unnoticeable). Fury has a really strong stun immunity and decent damage reduction passives, along with current auto crits every 6-9s if they wanted. Anhihilation has nothing of that category(Used to have that 0m - 30m force charge and for some retarded reason was removed yet it was its most powerful tool it had, along with shortened dots that could give good time on target, which I honestly think was way better compared to now).

It needs to be said that it lost more than it gained, specially last update. So a big compensation, compared to others, is needed.

DarthSealth's Avatar


DarthSealth
10.13.2017 , 02:35 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Eloi_BG View Post
I should know better than to argue with you but w/e. First things first, I am not trying to "take away" anything from anyone. The fact that alacrity is rounded up in a weird way hurts everyone (even fury), but I have to admit it hurts some more than others.
We were all surprised when Shyroman realized that it was acting like it is. Truth is no one ever really looked at it. If you have evidence other than "someone should have noticed by then" please provide it. Since this was discovered weeks ago, no one ever brought up anything to prove it wrong. Please check the actual parsely proof, and if you dont believe it test for yourself. Many of us have tried to prove it wrong but ended up finding it was true.
Do you hear your own contradiction?

Because everyone knows it is more viable to run alacrity on autocrit specs itís not a thing that has only been ĎDiscoveredí.

How new are you to the game?
Alacrity has always been a viable choice. Similar to how crit is for healers.

You honestly want something done because ďYouíreĒ unhappy about something and instead of like the rest of us who just get on with it, you want something done about it.

The game is suppose to be about having fun but when youíre not having fun all hell breaks loose and you want to ruin the fun for everyone else.
East End ,Londoner. Cockney a dying breed.
British equates (Sarcasm x Endearment)
Just my referral link:-
http://www.swtor.com/r/FjCtpt