Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Am I the only one that thinks Force Camoflage makes no sense for a Marauder?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Sentinel / Marauder
Am I the only one that thinks Force Camoflage makes no sense for a Marauder?

DarkSaberMaster's Avatar


DarkSaberMaster
07.05.2017 , 02:04 AM | #11
Please don't come here with your stealth class hate. Leave that **** in the Sin/Op/PvP sections.
Referral link to claim your new or returning player rewards.
Ezs'ra: Sith Mara
Harbinger

Rion_Starkiller's Avatar


Rion_Starkiller
07.05.2017 , 06:22 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by WayOfTheWarriorx View Post
As the title suggests, there's just something about Force Camouflage that has always seem to be to be totally not in keeping with what a Marauder is, just a ball of destruction who care's more about killing his enemies than living to a ripe old age.
I think Force Camo is a nod to KotOR. Sentinels were essentially the stealth class in that game.
-Beruhl
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Soon™
Quote: Originally Posted by Trolltar View Post
I believe he's quoting a frequent contributor to these forums. His name is Strawman.

mysidehun's Avatar


mysidehun
07.06.2017 , 03:01 AM | #13
Apologies in advance if this is going off topic.

As a Sentinel main, I always have mixed feeling for Force Camo. It is designed to be both a dcd and aggro drop(or reduction) with a cleanse if utility is taken.

My problem with it is the following: in PVE, there is a big hit incoming. Camo has a 45 sec cd and offers nice dr. But, if I flush my aggro on cd like a smart dps, then I can't use it. If I use it, I can't lessen my aggro. Not to mention that if I want to use for the dr, it has to be timed so perfectly that it doesn't get wasted by my attack disabling it.

Or maybe my concerns are just a l2p issue?

The Progenitor(16), The Red Eclipse(8), Tomb of Freedon Nadd(4)

Threjyan's Avatar


Threjyan
07.11.2017 , 02:43 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by mysidehun View Post
Apologies in advance if this is going off topic.

As a Sentinel main, I always have mixed feeling for Force Camo. It is designed to be both a dcd and aggro drop(or reduction) with a cleanse if utility is taken.

My problem with it is the following: in PVE, there is a big hit incoming. Camo has a 45 sec cd and offers nice dr. But, if I flush my aggro on cd like a smart dps, then I can't use it. If I use it, I can't lessen my aggro. Not to mention that if I want to use for the dr, it has to be timed so perfectly that it doesn't get wasted by my attack disabling it.

Or maybe my concerns are just a l2p issue?
i understand where your coming from, but if i can give u my feedback, its if u know your tanks well, and they can hold agroo nice, u prolly wont have to think much of dropping agroo - at least thats what i do.by any means im not expert, but try not to use camo so much at start, and see if u rip or not the agroo. then work with your tanks how to fix it.

virtually, if u have 2 tanks, when boss fight starts, if both tanks use their taunts available u will have 6*6secs of boss not coming to you.
..The Path Of Excess Leads To The Tower Of Wisdom..

realleaftea's Avatar


realleaftea
07.11.2017 , 02:02 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by mysidehun View Post
As a Sentinel main, I always have mixed feeling for Force Camo. It is designed to be both a dcd and aggro drop(or reduction) with a cleanse if utility is taken.

My problem with it is the following: in PVE, there is a big hit incoming. Camo has a 45 sec cd and offers nice dr. But, if I flush my aggro on cd like a smart dps, then I can't use it. If I use it, I can't lessen my aggro. Not to mention that if I want to use for the dr, it has to be timed so perfectly that it doesn't get wasted by my attack disabling it.
First of all, your tanks are responsible that the boss will focus them. If they run their normal taunt rotation (taunt + threatening scream + taunt), there's a 18s window in which the boss won't focus anyone else.

But even if you think you have to use Force Camouflage to lower your threat, that's typically needed only once per fight. In other words, the skill can be used as a normal DCD later during the fight.
_________

And although I had this discussion with WayOfTheWarriorx already, let me repeat my point of view.

Ths skill has a varable length of up to 6s (thanks to Phantom - a masterful utility). And the main advantage of the skill is it's versatility. I.e. unlike other DCDs that have a narrow focus, it can be used in many different ways.

F.e. you can use it in PvP to block some damage spikes (f.e. a Sniper's Ambush, etc.) and it can even be a better lifesaver than Undying Rage thanks to the invisibility. An Undying Rage can be answered by a simple 4s root, stun or push/pull, something that can't happen with Force Camouflage. And thanks to the 4~6s speed boost, there is enough time to get out of the 30m range or to use it as a gap closer against Snipers or other ranged classes. I've even seen some Marauders who used Force Camouflage to tap an objective during a chaotic situation.

In PvE, it's basically a powerful DCD against any foreseeable damage (getting out of a Blaster's Rain of Bombs, Firebrand & Stormcaller bombs, Brontes orbs, etc.) And the speed boost can be used to lower the downtime in a fight against Operator IX, Dash'roode, etc.
_________

But let's get to the original question:

Does it make sense flavorwise? - IMO Not that much, but it depends on other aspects!

The biggest problem is that there are many things in SWTOR that don't really make sense. So it's hard to limit it down to a single skill. In my opinion, even the overall concepts of Shadows, Marauders and Juggernauts aren't that great to begin with. IMO, it makes no sense that Assassins and Shadows are connected to Sages/Sorcerers.

Let's start with the stories. It would have made more sense, if the protective guardians would have shared the healing & negotiation heavy storyline of a Sage and if the Shadows would have shared the destruction & doomsday weapon storyline of a Sentinel.

Likewise, it would have made more sense if Assassins would have had the storyline centered around a 'spy network', whereas Juggernauts should have had the story around the controversy/dualism between brawn and brain, i.e. Khem Val and Zash.

With this change, there would have been a much better distinction between all four adv. classes. For the Juggernaut/Sorcerer constellation, it would have been active rage vs. insidiousness & madness. On the light side, it would have been active guarding/protection vs. cautiousness & responsiveness. And for the Assassin/Marauder and Shadow/Sentinel constellation, it would have been stealth & precision vs. speed & reflexes.

But not only that, even the weapon limitations would have made more sense. Single blade combat on one side, either either dual or double-bladed weapons on the other. And without a connection to Sages/Sorcerers, Shadows/Assassins could have had a focus on close-range saber combat rather than on levitating rocks or psychokinetic stuff.

And that brings me back to Force Camouflage:

With such a class constellation, this skill would have had a completely different meaning. And most likely, it would have been a perfect match for Assassins.

For Sentinels & Marauders, it would have made way more sense to get Saber Ward, Saber Reflect. & Blade Turning rather than a Cloak of Pain, Force Camouflage & Undying Rage.

Sentinels / Marauders are the class that thrives for an open battle and is trained well for it. So it should have the best defenses against melee/ranged attacks, but should have a weakness against 'magic', i.e. weakening / influencing force powers, poisons, etc.

For the Guardian / Sage constellation, we would have had:

Blade Storm vs. Disturbance
Force Sweep vs. Forcequake
Force Pull vs. Force Wave
Dispatch vs. Project
Guard vs Revival
Guardian Leap vs. Rescue
Guarded by the Force vs. Force Barrier
Force Potency vs Force Mend
Warding Call vs. Force Armor
Challenging Call vs Mass Mind Control
Resilence vs. Mental Defense & Pacify
Awe vs Mind Maze and/or Force Lift

For the Shadow / Sentinel constellation, we would have had:

Shadow Strike vs. Zealous Strike
Spinning Strike vs. Blade Barrage
Force Camouflage vs. Saber Reflect
Shadow Stride vs. Force Leap
Phase Walk vs. Blade Blitz & Zealous Leap
Force Cloak vs. Battle Readiness
Precision vs. Mental Alacrity
(Double) Saber Throw vs. Twin Saber Throw

But that's just a mind game and will never ever happen.

On a direct skill-based analysis, there's simply no other skill that would give the Marauder the same flexibility as a Force Camouflage. You want to give every class a anti-gank skill and you want to give 'squishier' classes at least one Escape, no matter if their class trope is a 'glass cannon' or not. Most fights aren't about fair & equal conditions for both sides. So to give players a chance to survive a unfavorable fight, there has to be at least one skill that can get them to safety.

So switching Force Camouflage with either Resilence or Saber Reflect won't work that well. The former means you'd have to remove other CC immunities and adjust Operatives, and the latter means you would have to give Juggernauts the Cloak of Pain reflection as well as other benefits.

So the best chances might be to introduce a utility that keeps the benefits of a Force Camouflage up for like 2s after the invisibility ends (a bit like the Sniper's Hold the Ground utility). Maybe at the cost of the +2s duration utility or the 75% force/tech DR via Obfuscate. That would shift the focus a bit more on combat, without removing the versatility of the skill and without affecting anything else.

orangenee's Avatar


orangenee
08.05.2017 , 11:32 AM | #16
As people said it's an aggro dump. Mara's don't get many defensive tools as is so a panic button is nice.
SWTOR Referral link: http://www.swtor.com/r/Kqsyhb #FreeMalgus #MarrReborn

UnzeroAJ's Avatar


UnzeroAJ
08.05.2017 , 09:59 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by orangenee View Post
as people said it's an aggro dump. mara's don't get many defensive tools as is so a panic button is nice.
l
o
l

orangenee's Avatar


orangenee
08.07.2017 , 10:49 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by UnzeroAJ View Post
l
o
l
You have an issue sir?

I mean I am a nub at this game, so do try to keep any anal retentive nerd snideness to yourself and inform me where I'm wrong if needed.

L
O
L
Yeah, not constructive and is why most nubs like myself don't do group stuff and hence the game dies.
SWTOR Referral link: http://www.swtor.com/r/Kqsyhb #FreeMalgus #MarrReborn

UnzeroAJ's Avatar


UnzeroAJ
08.07.2017 , 11:28 AM | #19
As a Combat Sentinel, I feel like I have an immense pile of defensive cooldowns at my dispoal. It's very hard to kill a good Marauder / Sentinel if they time things correctly. Your pacify utility at the bottom makes you take 75% less damage from Force / Tech (most damage) as well as making your enemy less accurate. It's pretty strong. Play around with different stuff and I assure you, you will find that Marauder/Sentinel is not a weak class. It just works better in groups.

Northernian's Avatar


Northernian
08.07.2017 , 03:24 PM | #20
I main Annihilation Mara and find force camouflage useful in both pvp and pve. The utility Hidden Savagery gives some damage bonus to melee attacks after accumulating 6 stacks. I saw that making difference in HM ops fights if used in combination with bleed attacks. Further, I found it useful in FPs, with that temporary stealth can help pass some mob groups -- a bit more trivial, but useful nonetheless.

In PvP, it really depends on the map and situation. I saw players making very poor use of it (e.g. popping them while they are in my LoS and uncloak and force jump) and players making better use of it. I think any form of stealth - temporary or permanent - is advantageous, so FC retains its usefulness
Bioware, please!!....eh, nevermind.