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Discussing Self Heal (Or our egregious lack thereof)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Sentinel / Marauder
Discussing Self Heal (Or our egregious lack thereof)

Greezt's Avatar


Greezt
02.28.2016 , 03:21 AM | #11
Adding self heals would require a nerf to survivability, because sents already have good passive defense and good DCDs. So that's not the way to go. Adding an anti-kiting mechanic to all sents is no solution, because concentration are already quite good at avoiding kiting, and watchman are less susceptible to it (being a DoTspec). The only spec that truly suffers from kiting is combat, because they are close-range, their burst relies on 3 second windows, and they only have one distance closer.

Right now, speccing transcendence into a root break is pretty much obligatory. That's fine in my opinion. Shadows have the same with egress. A small improvement could be merging just pursuit with reigning reach. Other than that, the main problem is that other classes have too many escapes. Sages have knock back, phasewalk, force speed, bubble stun, force slow... That's the real problem.

Edit: simply put, sents are balanced very well right now. Better than most other classes. That's why I'm against buffing their heals.

Strref's Avatar


Strref
02.28.2016 , 07:40 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Greezt View Post
Adding self heals would require a nerf to survivability, because sents already have good passive defense and good DCDs. So that's not the way to go. Adding an anti-kiting mechanic to all sents is no solution, because concentration are already quite good at avoiding kiting, and watchman are less susceptible to it (being a DoTspec). The only spec that truly suffers from kiting is combat, because they are close-range, their burst relies on 3 second windows, and they only have one distance closer.

Right now, speccing transcendence into a root break is pretty much obligatory. That's fine in my opinion. Shadows have the same with egress. A small improvement could be merging just pursuit with reigning reach. Other than that, the main problem is that other classes have too many escapes. Sages have knock back, phasewalk, force speed, bubble stun, force slow... That's the real problem.

Edit: simply put, sents are balanced very well right now. Better than most other classes. That's why I'm against buffing their heals.
Maybe you could say we feel Sages being OP more than most as we have a rather strong obligation to deal with them?

That said, my problem with transcendence is it's an obligatory 2 utility spend, just like pursuit + reach (imo said merged util should be heroic). My opinion on transcendence is that the '30 seconds/no centering' should just be the default mechanic for the skill--I don't think I've ever seen it used otherwise in either PvP or PvE.

Another problem I have is that we do have another root break that applies to blade blitz that I'd really like to be able to take/use, but both of our root breaks are heroic tier, and the transcendence one is just blatantly better. Keep fleetfooted where it is and move cut loose to skillful tier. Then I would say we could have a build that looks like:

Skillful: Cut Loose, Debilitation, Unwavering Resolve
Masterful: Incisor/Pulse, Force Fade
Heroic: Fleetfooted, Reining Pursuit

The "Kite This" build.

Greezt's Avatar


Greezt
02.28.2016 , 09:27 AM | #13
And then, when all ranged specs will complain that sents are unkiteable, the nerfbat will land... No. Sents should be kiteable, like any melee spec. That's the main defense ranged specs have against melee.

Transcendence should not have the root break naturally. No class has root breaks naturally except for troopers (and vanguards are too mobile right now). Blade blitz shouldn't be a natural root breaker either. Shadow stride and holotraverse need to be specced into breaking roots too, and that's fine. We don't want more mobility. We have enough already.

Transcendence is a good team buff, for 10 out of 30 seconds. If you play GSF, I like to think of it as the pvp "tensor". Therefore, you should spend a utility point to get it without centering. It's for a longer duration than, for example, force speed, and it helps your whole team.

Like I said, sents are pretty well balanced right now. The fine tuning should be around sages, vanguards and guardians. Sents are fine.

Arkillon's Avatar


Arkillon
02.28.2016 , 05:19 PM | #14
Eeeeexactly. Sages, and vg's have "too much".

I'm glad to see someone else understands this.
Axn - Carnage

Strref's Avatar


Strref
02.29.2016 , 10:26 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Greezt View Post
And then, when all ranged specs will complain that sents are unkiteable, the nerfbat will land... No. Sents should be kiteable, like any melee spec. That's the main defense ranged specs have against melee.

Transcendence should not have the root break naturally. No class has root breaks naturally except for troopers (and vanguards are too mobile right now). Blade blitz shouldn't be a natural root breaker either. Shadow stride and holotraverse need to be specced into breaking roots too, and that's fine. We don't want more mobility. We have enough already.

Transcendence is a good team buff, for 10 out of 30 seconds. If you play GSF, I like to think of it as the pvp "tensor". Therefore, you should spend a utility point to get it without centering. It's for a longer duration than, for example, force speed, and it helps your whole team.

Like I said, sents are pretty well balanced right now. The fine tuning should be around sages, vanguards and guardians. Sents are fine.
I agree, I just want to reshuffle the utilities.

Transcendence non-centering every 30 second use: This should just be merged into the ability. I can't think of a reason for that to 'not' be the default mechanic for the ability other than to give us a permanently locked in talent spend.

The root break + speed boost should be a utility and remain heroic. I have 0 problems with this.

The blade blitz root break should be moved to skillful, imo. Shares too much competition with heroic tier utils that give much more than just a root break on a 45-50 second CD ability. In skillful it'd be an interesting alternative.

Nic__'s Avatar


Nic__
02.29.2016 , 04:46 PM | #16
If you move the rootbreak on mad dash to skillful for sents from heroics (completely jumping the masterful tier) what will you move from skillful to heroic? Would you also then give guardians that utility in skillful since it's basically the same after all. What about shadows and scoundrels now? Should be move the root break on trick move and shadow step to skillful for them? I guess the point I'm trying to make is 1) remember to gain that utility in skillful you need to lose one that's already there, do you want to take the risk that one of the good utilizes there is lost for that? And 2) is basically the point the poster above me made, if you start making classes unkiteable then the devs have to start adding in ways for the ranged to kite, currently it's roots/slows/speed boosts, if you keep adding easy root breaks then all ranged classes will start getting hindering effects they can apply (think that's the debuffs that e-net gives) to counter your root breaks.

As far as the self heals go my point has kinda already been made but since I'm already typing....
Mostly my point comes down to us already having good defensive cds. While I get your idea is to have minor self heals to cover minor damage from general fighting rememeber to think about the impact this can have on a 1v1. We are already a good class in single target fights do to our great cds and crazy damage. If our class gets to the point where we have great survivablity, great damage AND good self heals we will be where serenity/hatred was 3.0 and we all saw how far they fell.

Couple of your point I will address directly since they stuck out. As far as gunslingers go they have shield probe on a 30? second CD and usually protects for about 8-10k, would you honestly trade force cammo for it? Shadows get overcharged saber on a 2 min CD, would you honestly trade rebuke for it? Vanguards get kolto override on a 3min cd (other point the healing past 40% on this is only for tanks) , would you trade guarded by the force for that?

Mordresh's Avatar


Mordresh
02.29.2016 , 08:26 PM | #17
I would be very glad if they'd improve Annihilation heals. I'd actually spec back to Annihilation for PvP.
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jauvtus's Avatar


jauvtus
03.01.2016 , 02:12 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Greezt View Post
Let's talk.



I main a shadow in PvP, so I feel quite confident talking about it. Battle readiness is a joke heal, and anyone who's ever played a shadow knows it. Bashing your saber on some other enemy for ~1000 HPS max is useless. It mitigates a small amount of damage (generally not noticeable unless your opponent is braindead), but you'll definitely not see any heals from it. The ability only becomes useful with an adrenal+ medpac, or with a DCD. That should tell you everything you need to know about it. Serenity's damage heals are a joke. the only worthwhile one is Serenity strike, and that one gives you ~1000 health once every 12 seconds... so certainly not that good. It's nice, but that's it. Also, let's not forget that serenity exchanges a whole bunch of passive defensives for those pitiful heals. That's why infiltration is considered less squishy, even WITHOUT self heals (except for battle readiness).

I agree absolutely

Sages are a healing class, and as such they get heals (just like mandos and scoundrels). At the moment they are way overtuned though, and they certainly aren't a good example. Balance has stronger HoTs from its DoTs than serenity, in addition to having all the heals of an offheal class. Yes, they have them, but that doesn't mean they're ok right now. They're not.

Now that's not true. Sages have too powerful healing as dps (Balance anyway), and their healing was originally designed when their energy-recharge consumed health. Since Vindicate doesnt consume health, their healing is overtuned. They are more than ok.

The 10% self heals are nice, but what's 10% heals every 1.5 minutes? Let's be real, that utility is taken only for the CC break CD reduction. No one has ever said "That guardian beat me because he had that 10% extra heal".

Focused defences is only good vs DoTspecs, and anyway it's a DCD (as is enure). Guardians don't have 20% DR for 30 seconds out of 60, nor do they have transcendence. Enure isn't even a heal... Any guardian knows that if they can't finish the fight in 10 seconds they might very well be dead.

Guardians have really good self-heals. 10% heal is ****, thats true. But every guardian specs for 90s CD on FD and it's useful against burst specs, too (and note that almost all burst specs have dots). Enure IS a heal, just unique, because that extra hp will be lost after the effect. Guardian selfheal isn't strong on its own, but let's not forget Saber Ward, Saber Reflect and there goes a FD-h2f. Personally I won't suggest to nerf their healing, I'm ok with it, but dont lie to me and say that their healing/defensives are not good.

5% heals every 30 seconds is basically 5% more damage the shield can absorb, that's all. Again, like you said this is an offheal class and as such they will have heals.

That utility is garbage. Lethality has quite nice offheals, but it needs, since its ramp up time is one of the longest. The class is fine also.

First of all, the HoT utility is horrible. 1% every 3 seconds? Tying yourself to one location for heals that can be negated by an autoattack. You are confusing "hunker down" with cover. They actually get the heals even when hunker down is on CD. Anyway, it doesn't matter. No slinger ever takes that utility who knows what he's doing. The shield mitigates very little damage, but yes, it's one of their cooldowns (again). Each class has different ones, and they got a shield. I'm pretty certain they'd be glad to exchange it for one of the sents' cooldowns.

ROFL. Not you, the OP. That self-heal doesnt deserve to be called a heal. Even basic attack spamming negates it. Hell, even Lethality dots negate it There is only one use of it (and ONLY in pve): it can proc your relics.

Nothing to add here.

Mando selfheal is ok. It doesnt make any difference only because they have no DCDs (120s CD lol)

So vanguards can spec into getting 30% (tactics) or 20% (others) every 1.5 minutes. It adds a DCD to their meager list of DCDs. other than that, they have Reactive shield (25% DR for 12 seconds, on a 2 minute CD), adrenaline rush (up to 40% health except for tanks, on a 3 minutes CD, and can be specced into a CC break), neural surge (2.5 seconds AoE stun, on a 45 seconds CD), and (for tanks only) battle focus (35% defense chance for 15 seconds, on a 2 minute cooldown). As you can see, sents have a much more extensive list of DCDs, not to mention shorter cooldowns on many of them.

Guard Cannon is a free medpac (35% for Tactics and 20% for Plasma). Nothing less, nothing more. VGs also have free self-heals from suffering AoE dmg that many forget of. AR is just as useless as it is for mandos. Oh, actually it would be useful for Plasmatech. If Plasmatech was viable for pvp.

Ok, conclusion time. All self heals mentioned above (excluding offhealing classes) are not better than defensives, because they replace them. I could go over all the DCDs again, but I already did so in the original post (for shadows, at least). Suffice to say that sents have some of the best DCDs in the game, and many (force camo, rebuke, transcendence) are either on a short cooldown or have a VERY long uptime. Self heals don't equate better survivability, except when paired with good DCDs (sages spring to mind). So yes, sents don't get self heals. They get other things, like the best burst in the game, a whole bunch of DCDs, and good passive defensives. That is why they don't deserve self heals. They certainly don't deserve them because "other classes have them". Would you ask for more ranged attacks, because shadows have 10-30m attacks and sents only have one? No. The same goes for self heals.

I hope I'm not coming off here as obnoxious, I did my best to explain my point of view.
Sents never had self-heals as AC ever. Then what is the problem?
1. Watchman self-heal was nerfed.
2. Guardians' FD got buffed.
3. Balance self-heal was buffed.
(4. VG dps got health utility which was tank only before, so free medpack for them)
As a Combat main, I wont whine until we get self-heals. But for someone who plays Watchman, they wanna get their old-selfheal back (TBH that's one of the reasons I left WM, that selfheal was unique).
Why did the SW start with Episode IV?
Because the director Yoda was

Greezt's Avatar


Greezt
03.01.2016 , 02:48 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by jauvtus View Post
Sents never had self-heals as AC ever. Then what is the problem?
1. Watchman self-heal was nerfed.
2. Guardians' FD got buffed.
3. Balance self-heal was buffed.
(4. VG dps got health utility which was tank only before, so free medpack for them)
As a Combat main, I wont whine until we get self-heals. But for someone who plays Watchman, they wanna get their old-selfheal back (TBH that's one of the reasons I left WM, that selfheal was unique).
You misunderstood my point about sages. I agree that they're overtuned right now. Apart from that, I agree with most of what you said. However, enure is useless without help, so I don't consider it a real heal.

Buffing watchman's heals would be nice. They are suffering from the same problem serenity is right now. I have no problem with vanguards getting a selfheal, they have practically no good DCDs, and precious few bad ones.

To OP: I don't understand why you want to improve sents so much. Almost everyone agrees that they're in a good place right now. Improving them would lead to nerfing them, and it would be sad to see one of the only well-balanced classes fall with the rest of them.

jauvtus's Avatar


jauvtus
03.01.2016 , 03:48 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Greezt View Post
You misunderstood my point about sages. I agree that they're overtuned right now. Apart from that, I agree with most of what you said. However, enure is useless without help, so I don't consider it a real heal.

Buffing watchman's heals would be nice. They are suffering from the same problem serenity is right now. I have no problem with vanguards getting a selfheal, they have practically no good DCDs, and precious few bad ones.

To OP: I don't understand why you want to improve sents so much. Almost everyone agrees that they're in a good place right now. Improving them would lead to nerfing them, and it would be sad to see one of the only well-balanced classes fall with the rest of them.
I think we basically agree then. Ofc Enure is not a heal in common sense, but it works kinda like one and the main goal of Enure is to make real DCDs stronger, not act alone. I play all classes and disciplines, sents could use a little defensive buff, nothing serious. All I ask is revert WM heals and no sent would have a right to complain. I have np with VGs healing either btw, just pointed out that they got something, while sents or snipers got nothing. I dont think their selfheal needs nerfing
Why did the SW start with Episode IV?
Because the director Yoda was