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Sents should get Riposte back.

Trogusaurus's Avatar

09.23.2017 , 05:44 PM | #1
It is as the thread name states, and there are some good reasons for it, if the reader (hopefully a dev, too? ) gives my argument a chance. I'm going to speak in Pub terms just for length's sake.

For all disciplines: Sentinels can use Riposte better than DPS Guardians do. Vigilance doesn't really have a place for it in its rotation beyond unicorn scenarios. Even post-Freezing Force nerf, Force Push and Saber Throw are more useful fillers than Slash/Riposte is in most cases. Offhand misses ensure it is more available to Sents than to Guardians. Watchman and Combat have far more filler opportunities to utilize it to its fullest, but I'll get to that.

For PvP:
Watchman. With the upcoming nerf to Watchman, there is very little (beyond Transcendence and slightly better AoE protection) that Vigilance and Serenity can't do better, and they benefit from their main AoE abilities being part of their *single target* rotations.The only comparative advantage Watchman ever had over other dot-specs in Ranked was the superior single target dps, and Watchman has far more filler opportunities to exploit this ability than any other Knight discipline. Having a free, guaranteed move to damage an opponent with a hard defensive up helps close some of the gap Watchman loses with this nerf.

Combat. It's no secret that Combat is the red-headed stepchild of PvP. It's too easy to shut down due to the majority of its damage being unloaded inside Precision. They're too predictable, and Concentration, Focus, Scrapper, and Infiltration outclass it in just about every way. Imagine giving Combat Sents a Riposte that receives some kind of stacking buff. Let's say, for example, it can receive 1 stack of a damage boost for every time Ataru Form is procced or the Offhand misses, up to 3-5 stacks (mechanically, exactly like Rail Shot works with Tracer Missile). At the max stack, Riposte does almost as much damage as Lance or even just Blade Barrage. This means that Combat Sents now have an answer for opponents if their biggest burst is down. If it's inevitable Precision will be interrupted by a skilled opponent one way or another, the least Combat can have is a small filler damage bonus. This just makes sense.

Concentration Focus already uses it as a core part of its rotation. Need I say more?

For PvE:
Watchman. Riposte can act as a functional substitute for Slash. As I said, there are plenty of filler opportunities for this discipline to use it, and it situationally closes the dps gap lost by offhand misses. Furthermore, there are very few instances in which Accelerating Victory is ever used to its fullest extent. Using Riposte in place of Slash provides the player more opportunities to use AV to its potential, without having to play the Focus Roulette game with risky Blade Storms. Otherwise, AV rarely, if ever, reaches its full potential as a passive. And, as I said in the PvP section, this just offers Watchman one more comparative advantage over other DoT-specs. If our AoEs are going to remain sub-par, then we might as well have a small, situational single target DPS boost the other classes either don't have, or can't capitalize on.

Combat. With the suggested stacking buff system outlined above, this provides more variety for the Combat Sentinel to experiment with in and out of Precision, should they choose to. It makes absolutely no sense that the spec's 3 power abilities are all used at the exact same times in every other cycle for optimal DPS, but have entirely different cooldown rates. A Riposte with a stacking buff system that reaches near-BB/Lance level damage offers the player more ways to cycle Clashing Blast and Lance on cooldown (instead of waiting for precision) without disrupting the Focus/Centering-per-cycle balance at all. It would at least provide the player some variety during the 5-turn lull of Blade Rush spam. Also consider that maintaining the BR window is only ever a point of concern when coming in and out of the burst window. Otherwise, that mechanic is completely pointless during the "lull-phase". Riposte offers the player a new, minor challenge during this phase, and raises the skill ceiling on the most boneheaded portion of any rotation in the entire game.

Riposte was originally *made* for Sentinels, and the same still holds true today. Sentinels also do not suffer the same ability bloat as that of other classes. In fact, Combat's quickbar is by far the skinniest of any spec for any class, and every Guardian discipline has at least one more offensive ability to activate than that of its Sentinel counterparts. It offers the class one very minor advantage over others that it used to have anyway, and it provides them just one more way to remain relevant in PvP, in spite of its lack of a push/pull or self-heals. If Sents can't control their opponents as they please, they should at least be allowed to exploit enemies with hit/miss-based defenses active. Since the devs are intent on making all disciplines the same dps-wise, this completely eliminates any advantage a pure-dps class has over others with superior utilities. Sentinels need some kind of standout if all classes of similar type are to have the same target DPS rates. It's already written into the game's code, and it would hardly disrupt the existing rotations, or the overall DPS balance in PvE. This, in my view, is a completely reasonable compromise for the nerf bat Watchman and Combat are taking.

AdjeYo's Avatar

09.24.2017 , 01:31 AM | #2
Sentinels don't need riposte, at all. All Sentinel specs are currently parsing near the top and their rotations are fine resourcewise too, they certainly don't need a lower cost Slash once in a while for PvE. For PvP it'll do nothing for special for Combat all of its burst will still be best used within Precision, if you buff Riposte they'll want to use that during Precision. They also have plenty of burst, no need to add yet another big hitter to Combat, it needs protection for its burst, not better burst.

Concentration also doesn't need it, since it receives 1 focus back after using Slash, unlike Focus which needs it for resource reasons. Concentration also does a fair bit more damage than Focus.

Lastly I disagree with your assessment about Riposte in Vigilance, if it does proc it's an amazing filler, a lot better than Saber Throw or Force Push, as it pretty much directly replaces Freezing Force, having the same cost.

In conclusion, Focus and Defense need it. Vengeance can make solid use of it after the Freezing Force nerf. Sentinels don't need it, they're already parsing on top, if you give Sentinels Riposte Concentration and Combat will need their damage toned down.

Trogusaurus's Avatar

09.24.2017 , 03:20 AM | #3
I disagree. Amidst the nerf bats, Sents (Watchman, particularly) absolutely needs a new niche to distinguish itself from similar melee classes, and I simply feel Riposte is one of the easier solutions. A pure DPS class *must* have the upper hand in pure DPS to maintain its position in the meta-game.

As for Combat, I agree that they need more burst protection. However, the devs haven't done that; they just nerfed and moved on. The Rail Shot-esque system is just a suggestion to guarantee some damage for a class that is most vulnerable to interruption, using a mechanic that already exists. As for using it inside precision, why not? If it is made to be only about as powerful as a Blade Barrage, that's nothing. BB alone is only marginally more powerful than Blade Rush + AF anyway, what's the issue with having one more ability like it? This hardly affects base DPS at all, if done properly. It just gives Combat more utility.

I will grant you that Concentration probably needs it least. However, Sents as a class still need some kind of competitive edge over other melee, and that used to come in the form of raw, or *unmitigated* damage. As for the Focus refund on Slash, there is no reason that Riposte cannot also have a passive yielding the same net focus cost. Also consider that Riposte was always a single-saber ability for Sents. And like with Combat, Conc's Slash (or BR) has a special damage bonus, meaning Riposte's base damage is marginally stronger than Force bonus-buffed Slash.

You are incorrect in comparing Push's potency to that of Riposte. Assuming one uses Unyielding Justice, there is less than a ~300 damage (2-4%, gear pending) difference between Push and Riposte, and Push costs nothing. Riposte is only ever the better option if you are about to overflow your resource pool with a Focus builder, or want to delay a CC move in PvP. Otherwise, there is little reason and too few opportunities to use it. Even Saber Throw deals comparable damage, and it *generates* focus.

Now compare that to the signature Sent rotations. Watchman is guaranteed 1-3 filler abilities with which to juggle Zealous, Strike, and Slash every 6-turn cycle. Night and day filler difference compared to Vig, where you get maybe 1-2 every 2 Vig Thrust cycles. And Combat is a 5-turn button mash followed by a 3-second burst window. Vig is chalk-full with power moves, where Sent disciplines rely more on passive damage between fillers, and Offhand misses make it far more available. Because of this, I maintain that Sentinels are still better built to use Riposte than DPS Guardians are, hands down.

All this to reiterate my main point: The devs are going to make all melee DPS classes equal to their burst/sustain counterparts on the dummy. This is really, really bad for Sentinels, because other classes offer superior reflects, self-heals, armor, stealth, push/pulls, hard-stuns, and a myriad of class-specific gimmicks that Sents lack. A raid buff with a 1/30 uptime and a raid speed boost *do not compensate* for this enormous weakness. The only traditional advantage for Sentinels has been their raw DPS, and Riposte offers some of that back outside a dummy. If Sentinels won't be allowed to out-DPS enemies on paper in the future, then they *require* a new comparative advantage to keep them competitive with other melee classes.

AdjeYo's Avatar

09.24.2017 , 05:14 AM | #4
Please stop with the whole "pure dps" nonsense. This game is balanced around specs, not classes. Sents have superior defensives to guardians, while also bringing a ton of utility to a raid through Bloodthirst and Predation (I don't know the translations, too lazy to look them up). I agree Watchman should outdamage Vigilance, simply due to the fact that Vigilance is bustier in nature, but Sents don't deserve more damage simply because they can't respecc. But there is no reason for Concentration to significantly outdamage Focus, Concentration has superior defensives, cc immunity and raid utility.

Lastly if you want to look back at how Riposte was originally designed, it never procced off misses when Sents had it, it only changed to proc of misses when it became exclusive to Guardians, which it did because it fits their toolkit a whole lot better.

As for its usage in Vigilance, sure it costs more than Force Push (only 1 focus net though), but the rotation works fine with Freezing Force now, with the same cost, there's no need to use Force Push/Saber Throw for focus, since you'll not run out of Focus anyway.

Trogusaurus's Avatar

09.24.2017 , 09:09 PM | #5
No, I will not stop with the pure dps "nonsense", because there is an element of truth to it, and your ignorance of that fact does not change reality. The devs designed it this way. The hallmark of the Sentinel has *always* been their pure dps, and the only time it wasn't (3.X), they were absolutely terrible. Sents and Slingers are locked into their roles, where other classes still naturally offer utilities from their alternate forms (such as taunts, guards, and self-heals). Sentinels are a dps-only class with no pushes nor pulls, nor any particularly special mechanics that other classes don't have better versions of. This is the crux of my entire argument, and your failure to acknowledge that in no way provides any constructive criticism to my proposal.

Transcendence is the most unique Sentinel ability, which doesn't say much. It's certainly useful in PvP, and at best a convenience (or detriment for platforming) in endgame PvE. It doesn't affect output in any meaningful way, and other classes have root immunity on their boosts. As for Inspiration, again. It's nice to have. But a slight raid boost with a 3.33% uptime isn't much. It isn't even available in Arenas. I will happily take Guard/Taunt or self-heals over those any day. As for their DCDs, Sentinels have superior *burst* defenses over Guardians, because they lack self-heals. You also forget that Guardians have significantly faster CDs on their DCDs, and they benefit from heavy armor. Sentinels only get anywhere near that base mitigation with Rebuke up, which requires continuous damage to keep. Sentinels only defensively outclass Guardians with the ability to tank very short, massive bursts, and avoiding "standing in stupid". That's it.

The whole point of reintroducing the move to Sents is because the only true advantage it has ever had, by design, is their DPS. Riposte is more than a fair compromise, because it's only a very slight DPS increase, and it gives them an exploit mechanic that other classes can't use the same way. If Sentinels can't have Push, Pull, self-heals, true stealth, multiple hard stuns, heavy armor, taunts, nearly full 10M rotations, true reflects, or any other mainstream ability, then they need something to stand out with. The devs have always functionally made that edge..... their DPS, and gave them the tools required to deal it. Riposte does this by keeping base damage in line with other classes, while letting Sents bypass some of the very mechanics *they lack*. How is that not fair?

Okay, tell you what. If not Riposte, then what solution do you have to offer Watchman and Combat after the nerf wave ends, and both are left outshined by other disciplines that do everything they can do, but simply better and with more variety? I have clearly demonstrated why Sentinels rely on DPS to stay in the game, but that can change with better utilities, for example. What reasonably implementable contribution would you suggest to the devs to re-enshrine some kind of hallmark for Sentinels?

Davarsus's Avatar

09.25.2017 , 04:53 PM | #6
I can't speak for Watchman or Concentration because I don't play those specs, but as a Combat Sentinel, I agree with AdjeYo that it doesn't need a better burst. Combat/Carnage is already hated for parsing too high, nearly as high as melee sustained specs, so buffing the dps would make things even worse.

If doing a complete rotation, the Combat burst compensates for all the lack of push/pulls, heals and whatever. This spec is literally kill or be killed. The problem is it relies heavily on the Precision/Ferocity window, so in my opinion, the solution would be to change it to stacks, like how Zen/Berserk works. That would get rid of most of our problems, specially in PvP, where we're constantly being stunned, interrupted, pushed... Do this, and they could even fix the clipping to get the spec down to where melee burst are supposed to be. Otherwise, we'll continue to be great in PvE and terrible in PvP.