We all know what's happening.

 

There's always at least one stubborn guy with zero expertise who thinks he doesn't need PvP gear because he has Campaign or Black Hole gear.

 

It's beyond the point of simply not knowing about the Expertise mechanic in this game, people INTENTIONALLY queue up in PvE gear because they either want to farm Molecular Stabilizers or because they're too lazy to get PvP gear.

 

Yes, some even refuse to wear the FREE Recruit gear because ''i don't like the look of it'' or ''i have higher stats with pve gear'''. It always ends up with the people wearing PvP gear having to carry this individual because he or she simply doesn't care and your Vote to Kick only works for AFKers. The one with no expertise is always the weakest link.

 

I don't queue up for ops in level 40something greens, and if I do, I'll get kicked in no time. So why are we forced to put up with these killjoys in 50s PvP?

 

It may not be rated but most of us still queue up to win.

Well depends entirely on the person's gear, someone with full dread guard/campaign(0 EXP) will shred a guy in full recruit(800exp).

So when it come to this case, are you gonna force a guy to wear inferior gear just for the sake of having "800 EXP"?

 

Also please keep in mind I've done my fair share of min-maxing of PVP gear so don't say I'm making excuses for people with PVE gear.

 

Edit : Alot of PVP'ers see expertise as a main stat, it is NOT. It is simply a boost made to separate PVP'ers from PVE'ers. Done badly I might add.

Edited January 21, 2013 by micnevv

How about then you can't queue for fp's or do any ops while having more then 200 expertise. I'm sick of pvpers saying their pvp gear is as good or better then then lessor level pve gear. If your to lazy to gear pve gear you shouldn't be able to queue for pve stuff....

 

However on another note when you compare full recruit lets say vs full black hole if checked the BH gear would probably come out ahead. Yes expertise lowers damage take but armor on BH gear is a lot more. expertise increases healing done but so does pve gear thats a higher level. More damage done in black hole vs lower end gear also.

 

However people need to realize this is NOT as much as you want it a PvP game. Its a PvE game and PvP is just a small side game as much as you may love it. PvE is the name of the game. PvP will never ever be a major focus of any sort in sw:tor. If your all about PvP best to find a game designed around that but swtor simply is not that.

 

Lastly the better fix would be to queue 50 pvp through a expertise / gear check. If your in recruit your stuck with those in recruit - 2/3 WH. If your in full WH its WH-EWH. However would need to once queued lock whatever gear you currently have on and not allow it to be changed until drop the queue or finished with the WZ. This would be to prevent people from queueing in recruit gear just to change to EWH later just so they slaughter all.

Yeah, I'm not sure about this at all. I queue up with about 1250, but I'm usually heals, so it comes with the target over my head I guess. But some dps (I'm thinking snipers maybe) might like lower expertise in an attempt to focus everything towards higher damage. I'm not sure how the numbers work out.

 

Tanks in particular seem to think they're going to be awesome if they queue in pve gear, but I'm not particularly sure why they think that. Probably some macho tank thing probably.

Any such requirement could be easily circumvented by swithcing out gear in the wz after the invite.

 

You can never "enforce" good pvp behaviour by simple rules as that.

 

And honestly, I`d take a guy with good pve equip who can play anytime over someone with beginners pvp equip who is only zerging without regard for the wz objective and refuseing to use the chat to call out incommings and the like (aka 50% of all PUGs).

How about then you can't queue for fp's or do any ops while having more then 200 expertise. I'm sick of pvpers saying their pvp gear is as good or better then then lessor level pve gear. If your to lazy to gear pve gear you shouldn't be able to queue for pve stuff....

 

This number needs to be higher, I have like 300 expertise in my pve gear, and it's a mix of dread guard, campaign, and generic 61/63 mods. Any pve content you can queue for is for lower level people anyhow, maybe the pvp gear is allowing them to gear up.

 

However on another note when you compare full recruit lets say vs full black hole if checked the BH gear would probably come out ahead. Yes expertise lowers damage take but armor on BH gear is a lot more. expertise increases healing done but so does pve gear thats a higher level. More damage done in black hole vs lower end gear also.

 

However people need to realize this is NOT as much as you want it a PvP game. Its a PvE game and PvP is just a small side game as much as you may love it. PvE is the name of the game. PvP will never ever be a major focus of any sort in sw:tor. If your all about PvP best to find a game designed around that but swtor simply is not that.

 

Haven't they had a couple patches lately that had a significant pvp focus? 1.6 with the new warzone, and 1.4 with the class rebalancing come to mind. Fortunately for all of us, pvp is still a major focus, since that's one of the only areas that stays relatively fresh when we're clearing the new raids on hard mode in the first week after release.

 

Lastly the better fix would be to queue 50 pvp through a expertise / gear check. If your in recruit your stuck with those in recruit - 2/3 WH. If your in full WH its WH-EWH. However would need to once queued lock whatever gear you currently have on and not allow it to be changed until drop the queue or finished with the WZ. This would be to prevent people from queueing in recruit gear just to change to EWH later just so they slaughter all.

 

This still falls prey to the "gear > skill" fallacy that makes so many pvp'ers just... bad. I'll take recruit-geared folks who know what they're doing over scrubs in WH any day of the week.

We all know what's happening.

 

There's always at least one stubborn guy with zero expertise who thinks he doesn't need PvP gear because he has Campaign or Black Hole gear.

 

It's beyond the point of simply not knowing about the Expertise mechanic in this game, people INTENTIONALLY queue up in PvE gear because they either want to farm Molecular Stabilizers or because they're too lazy to get PvP gear.

 

Yes, some even refuse to wear the FREE Recruit gear because ''i don't like the look of it'' or ''i have higher stats with pve gear'''. It always ends up with the people wearing PvP gear having to carry this individual because he or she simply doesn't care and your Vote to Kick only works for AFKers. The one with no expertise is always the weakest link.

 

I don't queue up for ops in level 40something greens, and if I do, I'll get kicked in no time. So why are we forced to put up with these killjoys in 50s PvP?

 

It may not be rated but most of us still queue up to win.

 

So say I have a 50 that I haven't played much after reaching 50 and all my recruit gear is now outdated, what your saying is I shouldn't be allowed to PvP because my gear isn't up to your standard? Kind of seems a little elitist don't you think? I like to PvP but not continuously and it seems I shouldn't be allowed to if I don't do it as often as someone like you.

So say I have a 50 that I haven't played much after reaching 50 and all my recruit gear is now outdated, what your saying is I shouldn't be allowed to PvP because my gear isn't up to your standard? Kind of seems a little elitist don't you think? I like to PvP but not continuously and it seems I shouldn't be allowed to if I don't do it as often as someone like you.

 

even original recruit gear has over 800 expertise. That said, recruit gear can be purchased as well with simple credits.

 

Really though this will all be moot (sorta) once they make expertise be a flat value across all PvP gear. Then recruit and EWH will have the same Expertise values, and the only difference is the stat values.

Edited January 21, 2013 by jgoldsack

even original recruit gear has over 800 expertise. That said, recruit gear can be purchased as well with simple credits.

 

Oh I know, but as I said. Not playing it in a while all the money was mailed to alts so hoping to PvP a bit to get more credits seems out of the question according to some.

This is an interesting question for me and I would appreciate opinions. My main is in all 61 and 63 gear has about 21K HP and very good stats for PvE DPS (38% Crit; 76% Surge; a lot of power, etc.). When I put on Recuit gear I lose about 5K HP and my DPS stats take a nosedive.

 

Am I really better off using that crap. I don't mind using War Hero or EWH but I have to earn it first.

The separation of PVP and PVE, server- & gear-wise, is total non-sense in an mmo!

It is a "lame" game mechanic to let the players grind, spending valuable time to gear up instead of having fun!

The reason is simple...lack of content!

 

In SWG (r.i.p.) that kind of separation was not necessary to create awesome pvp and pve action (in the same gear---what is the point of different gear??? oh i forgot, see above, lack of content).

Sandbox rules!

Edited January 21, 2013 by D-VINE

This is an interesting question for me and I would appreciate opinions. My main is in all 61 and 63 gear has about 21K HP and very good stats for PvE DPS (38% Crit; 76% Surge; a lot of power, etc.). When I put on Recuit gear I lose about 5K HP and my DPS stats take a nosedive.

 

Am I really better off using that crap. I don't mind using War Hero or EWH but I have to earn it first.

 

That pve stuff should work just fine as long as you're on the team I'm facing. I love seeing how hard my dots hit people wearing no expertise gear.

I just can't get into the no exp crowd, regardless of stats, as a healer. No matter how much on paper you think it helps, you're still getting hit 15% to 20% harder, doing 15% less damage and 15% less healing.

I've always felt that top level pvp should be tiered, so that newcomers aren't getting destroyed.

Expertise is the bigest load of horse sh*t ever. This one stat determins who wins and who loses PvP matches, it forces casual PvPers out of PvP and whats worse after the recruit gear the only way to get it is to PvP against people already in PvP gear. Rather than stop people going into PvP without it the expertise stat should be scrapped and PvP gear be made equal to PvE gear of the same tier.

So say I have a 50 that I haven't played much after reaching 50 and all my recruit gear is now outdated, what your saying is I shouldn't be allowed to PvP because my gear isn't up to your standard? Kind of seems a little elitist don't you think? I like to PvP but not continuously and it seems I shouldn't be allowed to if I don't do it as often as someone like you.

 

Sounds more like you have a chip on your shoulder and aren't being reasonable. Edit: Because that's not what the OP is talking about at all.

------------

 

I agree with the OP 90% of the way. The only class that can run with low (or no) expertise, is a tank. And that tank needs at least about 24k health to offset that difference. Expertise is mainly about damage. If you're a DPS, and have no expertise, it doesn't matter what gear you're in. You're going to get shredded and be useless to your team. Some people are saying that you'd be ok in full BH or Dread Guard against a recruit geared player. I don't know about this, and again, it depends if you're tanking, dpsing, or healing. But I assure you, if you don't have any expertise, and are going up against someone in even partial war hero with expertise around 1250, you're going to lose that fight. No two ways about it. If you don't have any expertise, you're going to lose it as a 30k tank too, but you'll usually last long enough to call in help from people who are actually dps specced (the usual point of a tank guarding something anyway).

--------

Someone brought up a good point that people could just switch their gear from recruit to PvE after the game started so they couldn't be picked up and kicked out. This can be avoided by just putting in an auto kick for anyone whose expertise drops below 200-300 or whatever number is chosen during the fight.

-----------

Finally, someone also complained about PvPers saying they can wear their gear in PvE. Well truth be told, they usually can, because there is no specific stat that regulates damage in PvE like there is in PvP. Now you might not be able to run, say, Hard Mode Denova or Terror from Beyond in that, but I have repeatedly done easier flashpoints like HM False Emperor and HM Battle of Ilum with PvP gear.

-------------

 

All this said, we need a way to check back people who don't have expertise in PvP, because unlike PvE, there is an exclusive stat designed to do nothing less or more than regulate damage ONLY in PvP.

Edited January 21, 2013 by LoneRegulator

OP i got news for you i did a test on pvp gear and pve gear here the finding. While I have 2 full set of war hero gear one dps one tanks set. I wanted to see if pve gear was ok in a war zone compared to recruit gear. Got a full recruit set went into the war zone went i have expertize i should be good.

 

Guess what i was killed by war hero geared players in sec hmm OK lets try my pve set wow i am able to dps and not be killed in sec how this possible. I did this test myself pve gear is better then recruit any day as long as there grinding pvp gear.

 

Recruit is crap for pvp don't believe me try it your self i even had a guild pvp healer come along to see. How easy i was to heal in recruit over pve gear and in pve gear are guild healer keep me alive when they came to are node. I switch gear in a slow time mid fight i died fast in recruit. so keep feeding me more recruit noobs on your team there tasty treats.

 

Do i run around in pve gear in pvp no not saying this is right i am saying that recruit is just that its bad compared to the stats on good raid gear. In pve gear i was able to at least take 3 to 4 players with me before i died with out heals. Recruit i was a tasty meal and killed. What is the lesson from all this? When i see a pve gear player I at least know he will be better then the noob in recruit gear.

Edited January 21, 2013 by Neoforcer

Sounds more like you have a chip on your shoulder and aren't being reasonable.

------------

 

I agree with the OP 90% of the way. The only class that can run with low (or no) expertise, is a tank. And that tank needs at least about 24k health to offset that difference. Expertise is mainly about damage. If you're a DPS, and have no expertise, it doesn't matter what gear you're in. You're going to get shredded and be useless to your team. Some people are saying that you'd be ok in full BH or Dread Guard against a recruit geared player. I don't know about this, and again, it depends if you're tanking, dpsing, or healing. But I assure you, if you don't have any expertise, and are going up against someone in even partial war hero with expertise around 1250, you're going to lose that fight. No two ways about it. If you don't have any expertise, you're going to lose it as a 30k tank too, but you'll usually last long enough to call in help from people who are actually dps specced (the usual point of a tank guarding something anyway).

--------

Someone brought up a good point that people could just switch their gear from recruit to PvE after the game started so they couldn't be picked up and kicked out. This can be avoided by just putting in an auto kick for anyone whose expertise drops below 200-300 or whatever number is chosen during the fight.

-----------

Finally, someone also complained about PvPers saying they can wear their gear in PvE. Well truth be told, they usually can, because there is no specific stat that regulates damage in PvE like there is in PvP. Now you might not be able to run, say, Hard Mode Denova or Terror from Beyond in that, but I have repeatedly done easier flashpoints like HM False Emperor and HM Battle of Ilum with PvP gear.

-------------

 

All this said, we need a way to check back people who don't have expertise in PvP, because unlike PvE, there is an exclusive stat designed to do nothing less or more than regulate damage ONLY in PvP.

 

So a level 50 should be completely alienated because he doesn't religiously PvP? Casual PvPer's shouldn't be allowed to participate?

As long as you contribute you could play naked for all I care. I see plenty of geared people who don't have a clue.

Implementing new gating mechanisms and/or gear requirements to participate in war zones is a bad idea. Focus should be on getting people to participate in PVP, NOT keeping them out.

 

Many players are way too obsessed with other players gear, and really need to mind their own business. Inspecting other players gear never works for me anyway, so how would I know that what they're wearing is substandard? As an example, I was in a PUG warzone group last week where we were getting beat down really badly. One idiot ranted at me that I sucked because I need PVP gear. Obviously he wasn't able to inspect my gear, because despite the shells I use for cosmetics, every piece I wear is at least war hero, with some elite war hero pieces mixed in. (1390 Expertise, all pieces augmented, though some augments are still level 50 blues) Amusingly, the most vocal "you suck/your gear sucks" people are usually at the bottom of the kill count and medal count list.

The problem is the recruit PvP gear is not better than really good PvE gear. As one of our fellow players has stated. However, WH PvP gear will always out perform a player in good PvE gear.

 

The other problem is when someone who isn't wearing either or and is causing a massive hole in the team.

 

Honestly, the rule should only be allowed for Ranked. I love PvP as it is my favorite part of this game, but I realize some do not want hardcore PvP. I would for one add the expertise requirement to Ranked, and I know those in good PvE gear may cry foul.

 

To prevent the risk of some fool ruining a ranked game, some also will be hurt. IF you really, really badly want to play with the big boys in PvP Ranked, then go get WH from unranked. I for one wouldn't hop into your HM Ops without the correct gear, would I?

Implementing new gating mechanisms and/or gear requirements to participate in war zones is a bad idea. Focus should be on getting people to participate in PVP, NOT keeping them out.

 

Many players are way too obsessed with other players gear, and really need to mind their own business. Inspecting other players gear never works for me anyway, so how would I know that what they're wearing is substandard? As an example, I was in a PUG warzone group last week where we were getting beat down really badly. One idiot ranted at me that I sucked because I need PVP gear. Obviously he wasn't able to inspect my gear, because despite the shells I use for cosmetics, every piece I wear is at least war hero, with some elite war hero pieces mixed in. (1390 Expertise, all pieces augmented, though some augments are still level 50 blues) Amusingly, the most vocal "you suck/your gear sucks" people are usually at the bottom of the kill count and medal count list.

 

And the highlighted piece is the problem, the way expertise is presented to people in this game makes them thinks it's a godly stat and must be maxed out instantly. The fact is you should be no-where near max exp even with fully modded WH gear. You just want the exp to bolster your pvp base damage/defense/heal to be on the same page as other PVP'ers and then focus on your base stats for optimal results.

Edited January 21, 2013 by micnevv

So a level 50 should be completely alienated because he doesn't religiously PvP? Casual PvPer's shouldn't be allowed to participate?

 

No. No one is saying that. Unless your gear is Champion and you have maxed out at 300 expertise or something. In which case, I'd say you are, unfortunately, in the same boat as new 50s because of the changes to expertise so long ago. I did just fine in my Battlemaster before I could go to War Hero.

 

OP i got news for you i did a test on pvp gear and pve gear here the finding. While I have 2 full set of war hero gear one dps one tanks set. I wanted to see if pve gear was ok in a war zone compared to recruit gear. Got a full recruit set went into the war zone went i have expertize i should be good.

 

Guess what i was killed by war hero geared players in sec hmm OK lets try my pve set wow i am able to dps and not be killed in sec how this possible. I did this test myself pve gear is better then recruit any day as long as there grinding pvp gear.

 

Recruit is crap for pvp don't believe me try it your self i even had a guild pvp healer come along to see. How easy i was to heal in recruit over pve gear and in pve gear are guild healer keep me alive when they came to are node. I switch gear in a slow time mid fight i died fast in recruit. so keep feeding me more recruit noobs on your team there tasty treats.

 

Do i run around in pve gear in pvp no not saying this is right i am saying that recruit is just that its bad compared to the stats on good raid gear. In pve gear i was able to at least take 3 to 4 players with me before i died with out heals. Recruit i was a tasty meal and killed. What is the lesson from all this? When i see a pve gear player I at least know he will be better then the noob in recruit gear.

 

Of course you're going to get killed faster in recruit gear. It's armor rating is horrible compared to pretty much all other 50 gear. What's more important is your damage. Did you take a picture of the dps you put out in your experiment with your dps set? I guarantee you it was lower than your recruit (unless you were guarding a node or something while in your recruit). I've never seen anyone with 0 expertise get more than 50k dps or so. And if someone is spec'd dps and doing that little damage, they're pretty much useless unless they're a tank (and to a lesser extent a healer).

 

Edit: The fact that you last longer in high grade PvE gear is why expertise isn't as big a deal for a tank. No offense, but when you say you took 3 or 4 guys with you in your PvE gear, I highly doubt you killed 3-4 people in your PvE gear before you got killed yourself without any heals. Can't even do that in good PvP gear (assuming absolutely no heals and no self-heals).

Edited January 21, 2013 by LoneRegulator

LadyVix have to agree was in a civil war last night me and 3 other hard core full optimized pvpers we get the vocal 5 players who sit there say you guys fail from the same guild. Were like hmm says the 5 people in 14k hp who cant kill one player when the score board come up at the end. The 3 of us have over 13 objective points more than 300k dps with the most kills. I typed one thing in ops chat least we know were the fail was point to the 5 people with low hp in recruit gear and waves at there fail. It irritates me when people start putting down other players in war zone.

LadyVix have to agree was in a civil war last night me and 3 other hard core full optimized pvpers we get the vocal 5 players who sit there say you guys fail from the same guild. Were like hmm says the 5 people in 14k hp who cant kill one player when the score board come up at the end. The 3 of us have over 13 objective points more than 300k dps with the most kills. I typed one thing in ops chat least we know were the fail was point to the 5 people with low hp in recruit gear and waves at there fail. It irritates me when people start putting down other players in war zone.

Different breed of cat in PvP ... even if some of the cats are ill-bred. Edited January 21, 2013 by GalacticKegger