hello guys what spec,rotation(priority) and BiS stats for guardian tank in PVE ?

thx

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiCQIYSBB4Q

Defence

30/50/50

next time try a TINY bit of research if you want to take tanking seriously.

oh and

http://www.tankingtor.com

Firstly, ignore the rudeness above poster. It's fine to ask for assistance but it does pay to have a look at other threads or use the search function.

There are 2 common specs for PVE Guardian Tanking.

Full Defence: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/guardian#1fd2djdk2i-223-21

Hybrid: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/guardian#21j1k2i-211i288k3-0

Full Defence is a more AoE capable build with easier focus management. It does generate lower single target threat and has slightly less survivability compared to Hybrid. Hybrid has stronger single target threat generation and higher survivability but requires more focus management. When I say "Focus management" I mean that the Full Defence build will usually sit at the top of the Focus bar without needing Strike while the Hybrid build will sit near the bottom with Strike being a more common move and will benefit heavily from Combat Focus.

In terms of a rotation, Guardian tanks are very priority based. Once you play for a bit you'll start to get a feel for it but a couple of things to keep in mind:

1 - Riposte whenever off CD for increased Defence chance

2 - Blade Storm whenever off CD for Blade Barrier

3 - Force Sweep whenever off CD for Accuracy debuff and AoE threat (and Sunder stacks if specced)

Past that you have Focus builders, Focus burners and Focus neutral attacks. Generally if you have enough Focus, use whatever is highest priority on your Focus burner list. If you don't, use a Focus builder (again, highest priority). I use my Focus neutral attacks when my Focus burners are on CD and I still have a bit of Focus left. Again, you need to get a feel for it.

Focus Builders:

0 - Saber Throw (3 Focus)

0 - Force Leap (3 Focus)

1 - Sundering Strike (2 Focus)

2 - Force Stasis (3 Focus and a stun)

3 - Combat Focus (6 free Focus - 1 min CD)

4 - Strike (1 Focus)

I've listed Saber Throw and Force Leap as priority 0 because you always use them as an opener but often don't get to use them again. Whenever you can use them these are a great way to generate Focus. Sundering Strike also builds Sunder stacks, combined with the 4.5s CD and 2 Focus, this is your staple Focus generator. Force Stasis and Combat Focus are more situational in their application. Stasis is sometimes more useful for it's stun, sometimes for the Focus, on trash pulls I generally hold it in case I need a stun but for bosses I burn it early for Focus. Combat Focus is great if you need a sudden windfall of Focus for an AoE intensive rotation, for a Hybrid you will you this a lot more often, again you need to get a feel for this.

Focus Burners:

1 - Riposte (off GCD) (1 Focus)

2 - Blade Storm (4 Focus)

3 - Force Sweep (Full Defence) (4 Focus)

4 - Guardian Stlash (Full Defence) (4 Focus)

5 - Overhead Slash (Hybrid) (4 Focus)

6 - Slash (3 Focus)

X - Cyclone Slash (3 Focus)

With your Focus burners, you want to use Riposte and Blade Storm on CD to give you Blade Barrier and Blade Barricade. It is important to make sure you have enough Focus to be using them as soon as they come off CD as they both contribute to your survivability. Force Sweep should also be used close to CD but you need to be wary in a Full Defence build not to use Blade Storm and Force Sweep too close to each other or you won't be getting full benefit from Courage.

Guardian Slash is a nice "heavy" hitter with a smart AoE attached, it's best used when the target has 5 stacks of Sunder on them already to trigger the AoE. If used on a target with less than 5 stacks of Sunder, Guardian Slash will add up to 3 more stacks. Overhead Slash is the Hybrid alternative to Guardian Slash. It hits harder, generates more threat and costs the same Focus but only affects a single target. Slash should be used to burn focus if you are sitting near full so as to not waste any Focus generated from Soresu form. Cyclone slash is a focus burner but it is only useful for its AoE. It hits for less than Sundering Strike but will hit up to 5 targets in an arc in front of you.

Focus Neutral:

1 - Force Sweep (Hybrid)

2 - Master Strike

3 - Hilt Strike (Full Defence)

Each build has 2 Focus neutral attacks. That is attacks that don't cost and don't generate Focus. For Hybrid Guardians, Force Sweep is free and should be used on CD. Master Strike is a 3 second channel that hits 3 times total. It is one of the hardest hitting abilities in the game and a great way to generate threat. Should be used whenever you are below 3/4 Focus and your Riposte/Blade Storm/Force Sweet are on CD. Important to note that using Taunt or Riposte in the middle of Master Strike will break the channel and the last hit is the hardest. Hilt Strike is a hard stun that deals a little damage. Despite being "high threat" this is mostly useful for its stun. Use like Force Stasis if you are Full Defence.

AoE Priority:

1 - Force Sweep

2 - Guardian Slash (Full Defence)

3 - Cyclone Slash

AoE threat is pretty tough for a Guardian. If you can get everything close together you can usually hold it but if you are dealing with lots of spread out ranged mobs it can be a nightmare. I'd suggest learning to LoS pull to deal with these situations. TankingTOR and a few threads on these forums will cover that. Most of the above abilities have already been covered above. I'll just add that Cyclone slash strikes a ~120 degree arc in front of you. Make sure you are facing the mobs or its wasted.

Now that all that is covered. My single target opening rotation for the Hybrid Guardian is:

Saber Throw -> Force Leap - >Sundering Strike -> Blade Storm -> Force Sweep -> Sundering Strike -> Force Stasis -> Overhead Slash -> Sundering Strike -> Master Strike

Full Defence Guardian would look more like:

Saber Throw -> Force Leap - >Sundering Strike -> Force Sweep -> Guardian Slash -> Sundering Strike -> Blade Storm -> Force Stasis -> Sundering Strike -> Master Strike

Riposte is used as soon as it lights up and on CD thereafter. After that I go into my priority queues above.

Multiple target opening rotation is more like:

Saber Throw on ranged (change target to another ranged) -> Leap -> Sundering Strike -> Force Sweep -> (Guardian Slash) -> Cyclone Slash until out of Focus -> Combat Focus -> (Change target) Force Stasis -> Cyclone Slash until out of Focus

After that I go into a normal priority rotation just changing between to 2-3 biggest threats (aka strong/elites) in the pull every few attacks. Any remaining weaks and normals are the responsibility of the DPS but if they ignore them a taunt can be used to protect the healer.

In terms of gear, a Full Defence Guardians generally aim for:

- 30% Defence

- 50% Shield

- 50% Absorb

- 48% Damage Reduction

Hybrid Guardian will look more like:

- 30% Defence

- 46% Shield

- 50% Absorb

- 52% Damage Reduction

Guardian gear is a bit crazy. Rakata is very heavy on Defence and light on Shield/Absorb while Black Hole/Campaign has a lot more Shield/Absorb. One of the first things you should do with your gear is rip out all the Accuracy and replace it with mitigation stats. After that, you want to try and keep Defence/Shield/Absorb fairly balanced.

For BiS relics you can choose between:

- War Hero Defence

- War Hero Shield

- Campaign/Dread Guard Absorb Proc

- Campaign/DG Shield/Absorb click

- Campaign/DG Defence click

It's really up to you what fits your (and your healer's) play style when it comes to relics. The WH Defence/Shield ones give a nice constant boost of 113 points of the respective stat. The absorb proc relic gives really good mean mitigation but only affects attacks that would already have been reduced. The click relics give you an extra CD and in fights with tank swaps (which is most of the newer ones) they give great average up time if used proactively. Defence/Shield is all about preference, personally I like the Shield/Absorb one because its less spiky.

I'd recommend reading Camarius's sticky in the Guardian Forum as well as heading over to TankingTOR for some great videos that cover a few 'advanced' tanking tricks.

Firstly, ignore the rudeness above poster. It's fine to ask for assistance but it does pay to have a look at other threads or use the search function.

 

There are 2 common specs for PVE Guardian Tanking.

Full Defence: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/guardian#1fd2djdk2i-223-21

Hybrid: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/guardian#21j1k2i-211i288k3-0

 

Full Defence is a more AoE capable build with easier focus management. It does generate lower single target threat and has slightly less survivability compared to Hybrid. Hybrid has stronger single target threat generation and higher survivability but requires more focus management. When I say "Focus management" I mean that the Full Defence build will usually sit at the top of the Focus bar without needing Strike while the Hybrid build will sit near the bottom with Strike being a more common move and will benefit heavily from Combat Focus.

 

In terms of a rotation, Guardian tanks are very priority based. Once you play for a bit you'll start to get a feel for it but a couple of things to keep in mind:

1 - Riposte whenever off CD for increased Defence chance

2 - Blade Storm whenever off CD for Blade Barrier

3 - Force Sweep whenever off CD for Accuracy debuff and AoE threat (and Sunder stacks if specced)

 

Past that you have Focus builders, Focus burners and Focus neutral attacks. Generally if you have enough Focus, use whatever is highest priority on your Focus burner list. If you don't, use a Focus builder (again, highest priority). I use my Focus neutral attacks when my Focus burners are on CD and I still have a bit of Focus left. Again, you need to get a feel for it.

 

Focus Builders:

0 - Saber Throw (3 Focus)

0 - Force Leap (3 Focus)

1 - Sundering Strike (2 Focus)

2 - Force Stasis (3 Focus and a stun)

3 - Combat Focus (6 free Focus - 1 min CD)

4 - Strike (1 Focus)

 

I've listed Saber Throw and Force Leap as priority 0 because you always use them as an opener but often don't get to use them again. Whenever you can use them these are a great way to generate Focus. Sundering Strike also builds Sunder stacks, combined with the 4.5s CD and 2 Focus, this is your staple Focus generator. Force Stasis and Combat Focus are more situational in their application. Stasis is sometimes more useful for it's stun, sometimes for the Focus, on trash pulls I generally hold it in case I need a stun but for bosses I burn it early for Focus. Combat Focus is great if you need a sudden windfall of Focus for an AoE intensive rotation, for a Hybrid you will you this a lot more often, again you need to get a feel for this.

 

Focus Burners:

1 - Riposte (off GCD) (1 Focus)

2 - Blade Storm (4 Focus)

3 - Force Sweep (Full Defence) (4 Focus)

4 - Guardian Stlash (Full Defence) (4 Focus)

5 - Overhead Slash (Hybrid) (4 Focus)

6 - Slash (3 Focus)

X - Cyclone Slash (3 Focus)

 

With your Focus burners, you want to use Riposte and Blade Storm on CD to give you Blade Barrier and Blade Barricade. It is important to make sure you have enough Focus to be using them as soon as they come off CD as they both contribute to your survivability. Force Sweep should also be used close to CD but you need to be wary in a Full Defence build not to use Blade Storm and Force Sweep too close to each other or you won't be getting full benefit from Courage.

 

Guardian Slash is a nice "heavy" hitter with a smart AoE attached, it's best used when the target has 5 stacks of Sunder on them already to trigger the AoE. If used on a target with less than 5 stacks of Sunder, Guardian Slash will add up to 3 more stacks. Overhead Slash is the Hybrid alternative to Guardian Slash. It hits harder, generates more threat and costs the same Focus but only affects a single target. Slash should be used to burn focus if you are sitting near full so as to not waste any Focus generated from Soresu form. Cyclone slash is a focus burner but it is only useful for its AoE. It hits for less than Sundering Strike but will hit up to 5 targets in an arc in front of you.

 

Focus Neutral:

1 - Force Sweep (Hybrid)

2 - Master Strike

3 - Hilt Strike (Full Defence)

 

Each build has 2 Focus neutral attacks. That is attacks that don't cost and don't generate Focus. For Hybrid Guardians, Force Sweep is free and should be used on CD. Master Strike is a 3 second channel that hits 3 times total. It is one of the hardest hitting abilities in the game and a great way to generate threat. Should be used whenever you are below 3/4 Focus and your Riposte/Blade Storm/Force Sweet are on CD. Important to note that using Taunt or Riposte in the middle of Master Strike will break the channel and the last hit is the hardest. Hilt Strike is a hard stun that deals a little damage. Despite being "high threat" this is mostly useful for its stun. Use like Force Stasis if you are Full Defence.

 

AoE Priority:

1 - Force Sweep

2 - Guardian Slash (Full Defence)

3 - Cyclone Slash

 

AoE threat is pretty tough for a Guardian. If you can get everything close together you can usually hold it but if you are dealing with lots of spread out ranged mobs it can be a nightmare. I'd suggest learning to LoS pull to deal with these situations. TankingTOR and a few threads on these forums will cover that. Most of the above abilities have already been covered above. I'll just add that Cyclone slash strikes a ~120 degree arc in front of you. Make sure you are facing the mobs or its wasted.

 

Now that all that is covered. My single target opening rotation for the Hybrid Guardian is:

Saber Throw -> Force Leap - >Sundering Strike -> Blade Storm -> Force Sweep -> Sundering Strike -> Force Stasis -> Overhead Slash -> Sundering Strike -> Master Strike

Full Defence Guardian would look more like:

Saber Throw -> Force Leap - >Sundering Strike -> Force Sweep -> Guardian Slash -> Sundering Strike -> Blade Storm -> Force Stasis -> Sundering Strike -> Master Strike

Riposte is used as soon as it lights up and on CD thereafter. After that I go into my priority queues above.

 

Multiple target opening rotation is more like:

Saber Throw on ranged (change target to another ranged) -> Leap -> Sundering Strike -> Force Sweep -> (Guardian Slash) -> Cyclone Slash until out of Focus -> Combat Focus -> (Change target) Force Stasis -> Cyclone Slash until out of Focus

After that I go into a normal priority rotation just changing between to 2-3 biggest threats (aka strong/elites) in the pull every few attacks. Any remaining weaks and normals are the responsibility of the DPS but if they ignore them a taunt can be used to protect the healer.

 

In terms of gear, a Full Defence Guardians generally aim for:

- 30% Defence

- 50% Shield

- 50% Absorb

- 48% Damage Reduction

 

Hybrid Guardian will look more like:

- 30% Defence

- 46% Shield

- 50% Absorb

- 52% Damage Reduction

 

Guardian gear is a bit crazy. Rakata is very heavy on Defence and light on Shield/Absorb while Black Hole/Campaign has a lot more Shield/Absorb. One of the first things you should do with your gear is rip out all the Accuracy and replace it with mitigation stats. After that, you want to try and keep Defence/Shield/Absorb fairly balanced.

 

For BiS relics you can choose between:

- War Hero Defence

- War Hero Shield

- Campaign/Dread Guard Absorb Proc

- Campaign/DG Shield/Absorb click

- Campaign/DG Defence click

 

It's really up to you what fits your (and your healer's) play style when it comes to relics. The WH Defence/Shield ones give a nice constant boost of 113 points of the respective stat. The absorb proc relic gives really good mean mitigation but only affects attacks that would already have been reduced. The click relics give you an extra CD and in fights with tank swaps (which is most of the newer ones) they give great average up time if used proactively. Defence/Shield is all about preference, personally I like the Shield/Absorb one because its less spiky.

 

I'd recommend reading Camarius's sticky in the Guardian Forum as well as heading over to TankingTOR for some great videos that cover a few 'advanced' tanking tricks.

wow thx for the detailed info

so about stats fully buffed and stimed i end up with this

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/6df9335a-0ff1-43f5-b19c-6a53c6066275

again thx for the help !

Personally I'd drop a little Defence for some more Shield. Also as I mentioned, I don't like the Absorb proc relics so I'd swap that for an activation Relic.

Remember that spec will give you 3% Defence from Riposte so you've actually got 33%.

Personally I'd drop a little Defence for some more Shield. Also as I mentioned, I don't like the Absorb proc relics so I'd swap that for an activation Relic.

 

Remember that spec will give you 3% Defence from Riposte so you've actually got 33%.

so i swapped all the def augments with shield augments i end up with

Defense Chance 27.40% with riposte ill be at 30% def

Shield Chance 55.04%

Shield Absorption 50.74%

is that right ?

Hello, I'm a newly arrived player and I'm certainly interested in playing a PvE Jedi Guardian Tank.

First of all, thank you Grallmate for the useful post. It seems like I'll be following it closely. I have a question, though. When you say that full defense spec has lower single threat generation, how much lower? Enough to not be able to main tank a boss? Or is possible to MT with that spec?

When you say that full defense spec has lower single threat generation, how much lower? Enough to not be able to main tank a boss? Or is possible to MT with that spec?

It's entirely possible to MT with a full defense spec. My Guardian is full defense because I didn't want to deal with the hassle of resource maintenance the hybrid has to deal with and have never had a problem tanking with similarly geared players. The first 15 seconds of a fight, where threat is most vulnerable from being ripped from you, are a bit riskier, but you can easily deal with that with some taunt spam.

When you say that full defense spec has lower single threat generation, how much lower? Enough to not be able to main tank a boss? Or is possible to MT with that spec?

What he probably means that threat from damage is not as good, but that's not how tanking is generally done in SWTOR. You generate threat by doing your high threat moves, then taunting. Most threat generation is done via taunts. Taunting when you already have threat only increases your threat. High threat moves have a threat multiplier and do not rely solely on damage. If your taunts are constantly on cooldown, you are unlikely to lose threat.

Many main tanks are full defensive, and it certainly makes sense when doing difficult content. It's probably easier, in fact, because it was designed for tanking and includes some high threat generation moves. In general, hybrid specs can be made to work, but they frequently require more care.

Is it possible to get an ask mr.robot link with the 30(27 if specced into riposte)/50/50 that also has some comparable HP to `27k or higher. I have been trying but i am comming up a few percentage short. Keep in mind this is only in Campaign/black hole gear

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/e9312785-820e-48d4-9b89-81e01d889ed4

It's probably easier, in fact, because it was designed for tanking and includes some high threat generation moves. In general, hybrid specs can be made to work, but they frequently require more care.

Hybrid tank specs for Shadows and VGs would never be recommended for PvE progression; they lose too much survivability for whatever else they might gain. The only hybrid spec I ever see recommended for Shadows is exclusively for PvP, and I don't ever really see hybrid specs for VGs recommended.

Guardians, however, are different. A substantial number of top raiding Guardians roll as the Vigilance hybrid (18/23/0) specifically because, unlike the other hybrids, the Guardian tank hybrid actually manages better threat generation, damage, and survivability compared to full Defense: the damage and threat come from the combination of Overhead Slash (generates more threat per hit and is on a shorter CD) and Vigilance's Blade Storm buffs (additional DoT coupled with lower CD); the survivability increases are due to sacrificing 4% shield chance (when the class has the lowest Shield and Absorb of all the tanks, this means that Guardians care even less about it than the other tanks do) and 4% I/E DR for 4% total DR and a 9 second CD on Blade Storm (which means more Blade Barrier). The only "problem" with the spec is that it is *much* more difficult to play thanks to the incredibly tight resource management: it actually *requires* the use of Combat Focus with regularity, not just for emergencies.

The reason for this, overall, is due to some very strange design decisions concerning Guardians. The Defense tree focuses less on augmenting survivability and threat generation (which is what the other 2 tank trees focus on entirely) and more on overcoming the absurd negative effects of Soresu Form, which are functionally unique amongst the tank stances: Combat Technique's "negative effect" is 5% less melee bonus damage (which translates to something like 2.5% less damage overall on attacks that comprise roughly 10-20% of your total damage and threat for a total "nerf" of .25-.5% of total damage and threat) and Ion Cell has no negative effect. Soresu Form, on the other hand, reduces your resource generation by roughly 1/3rd (the fact that it provides you with 1 Focus every 6 seconds when you're hit by an attack is redundant because all of the stances get that with no negative effect to "counteract" it). Rather than being able to focus their tanking tree on actually tanking effectively by increasing threat generation and survivability, Guardians are forced to devote almost half of their major talents to overcoming the fact that they're saddled with the only stance that has a substantial negative effect (Momentum, Lunge, Victory Rush, Stasis Mastery, Courage, and Cyclonic Sweeps, with the possible inclusion of Hilt Strike since it's not a spectacular attack and is only really useful as a high threat attack when you're out of or low on Focus) and, of the survivability talents that remain, only 2 are outside of the "hybrid" range (tier 3/4), and pretty much everyone in the top 3 tiers of the tree is mediocre at best (Guardian Slash is either too expensive, too long of a CD, or too weak to really be particularly useful, especially when compared to what the other 2 tanks get with their 31 pt; Cyclonic Sweeps is, mechanically, weaker than either One With the Force or Shield Cycler based on the other classes' resource generation without them; Hilt Strike is on too long of a CD to be especially useful; Inner Peace would be a decent talent except that the hybrid talent it competes with blows it out of the water). In short, pretty much all of the most useful stuff for Guard tanks is in the first few tiers and nothing at the top stands out enough to be "must have", unlike for Shadows and VGs (any Shadow tank without Slow Time, Harnessed Shadows, Stasis, Force Pull, or Bombardment is pretty much crippling themselves and Storm, Ion Screen, and Energy Blast are all incredibly useful to VG tanks, not to mention getting 6% Shield chance from the Shield Chance talent as opposed to just 4%, especially on a class that gets substantially more out of Shield and Absorb due to higher native values from the spec).

Honestly, the Guardian shows the most obvious flaws in its design compared to what the "standard" design of the game has been shown to be. Shadow and VG tanks both adhere to a very crisp and well defined style of play and design. Shadows are tanks that grew out of a DPS spec and are demonstrative of such a design (a lot of proc watching and attacks that increase survivability with a cohesive attack priority that revolves around a central set of mechanics). VGs are tanks that were designed from the ground up, to be passive and simple, with little complexity beyond ammo management, which shows insofar as they can tank effectively by just smashing their attacks on CD most of the time with a large number of well spread out passive survivability talents. Guardians are effective but behave more as a patchwork jury-rigging based on after-the-fact changes to the original design to make them competitive/sensible/effective. Rather than designing them with a style of play and cohesive mechanical system, it's apparent that Guardians were designed with the idea of "tank" without considering what *kind* of tank they were supposed to be or *how* that tank was supposed to play. Really, they could use a large-scale overhaul to their entire design (remove the resource reduction for Soresu Form or include some of the resource generation talents as baseline; spread out the survivability through the entire tree; make Hilt Strike and Guardian Slash more effective tanking attacks, potentially by switching Guardian Slash's place in the tree with Hilt Strike and tying Blade Barrier to it rather than Blade Storm coupled with a damage increase, possibly tied to dealing damage based on number of Sunder stacks on the target, and a CD reduction; remove Hilt Strike from the GCD, reduce the stun duration, and reduce the GCD or simply make it an improved version of Riposte that stuns the target for a shorter duration). All of the changes should reinforce a central design concept (in my mind, that concept would be a barrier based reciprocal tank: Blade Barrier and Riposte would be the defining attributes of their playstyle that are present across multiple abilities rather than only being present in 1-2 talents, similar to how Stockstrike and Ion Pulse are relied upon for VGs and HS+TkT and Kinetic Ward are for Shadows).

Since it's known that the FP&Ops lead dev plays a Defense Guardian as his main, I wonder what the general developer thoughts of the Guardian, specifically Defense but also potentially Vigilance, are? Do they see a problem with the largely patchwerk and chaotic design of Guardians or the lopsided value of the tiers within the tree, especially since there were a lot of design decisions made quite a number of months ago that let it be known that the developers really weren't fond of the idea that a hybrid could be almost universally better a pure spec?

What he probably means that threat from damage is not as good, but that's not how tanking is generally done in SWTOR. You generate threat by doing your high threat moves, then taunting. Most threat generation is done via taunts. Taunting when you already have threat only increases your threat. High threat moves have a threat multiplier and do not rely solely on damage. If your taunts are constantly on cooldown, you are unlikely to lose threat.

 

Many main tanks are full defensive, and it certainly makes sense when doing difficult content. It's probably easier, in fact, because it was designed for tanking and includes some high threat generation moves. In general, hybrid specs can be made to work, but they frequently require more care.

Actually threat generation in SWTOR isn't built around taunting. Taunting just provides a 30% boost to current threat. As such it provides a way to build threat and once sufficient threat is on a boss it makes everything else largely irrelevant. This is why most people only care about the first 20-30 seconds of a fight.

The difference between Hybrid and Full Defence Build at Campaign level is about 150 DPS and about 100 TPS (threat per second). Combined with the higher survivability from Commanding Awe and reduced CD on Blade Barrier, the Hybrid really comes out ahead. However, the learning curve of the Hybrid is much steeper. You need to learn not only how to tank, but how to manage your much sparser resources. However the payoff is worth it.