With the number of bugs and other issues, and given the lean resources allocated to this game, isn't it time for BW/EA to lift the block on the modding community and allow other willing coders to help out the game? BW doesn't even have to accept all mods -- they could and QC an approve the ones they like, and pass on others. What am I missing here? Everyone wins....

This isn't the first time this suggestion was made. Under my moniker Xordevoreaux, I have published mods for Sims4, Skyrim, Skyrim SE, SimCity 4, SimCity 2013, and I might be forgetting one or two games.

 

While I support the idea of modding SWTOR (the first thing I'd do would be to create a DLC megapack for high-resolution textures on old parts of the game like Tython and Taris), I'll raise the same 2 issues that I did when modding SWTOR was brought up a previous time:

 

1. Bioware's employee base is purposefully stretched thin. We know this by the speed and volume of updates, new releases, and bug fixes. If Bioware had bodies to spare, we'd see more content with more depth, faster. As it is, with the employees they have coding and testing, I can't imagine Bioware burning salary on yet more employees to play mod police, an investment which would produce an expense, but no income.

 

2. The game's code is EA's intellectual property, the Star Wars franchise is not. Ensuring player mods aren't antithetical to the wishes of Disney as far as what Disney wants mixed in with its content would indeed require the aforementioned mod police.

Edited March 31, 2020 by xordevoreaux

I don't know much about coding but I believe them when they say the engine they use causes the issues. They posted awhile ago or it was during a live stream that the player base would rather have more content then pause content and upgrade the engine. When I heard that I couldn't believe it. As a player from beta I would be more than happy to put a pause on content so they can upgrade this game. With a better engine we could get more content sooner and with fewer bugs. But what do we the payers know ?

I don't know much about coding but I believe them when they say the engine they use causes the issues. They posted awhile ago or it was during a live stream that the player base would rather have more content then pause content and upgrade the engine. When I heard that I couldn't believe it. As a player from beta I would be more than happy to put a pause on content so they can upgrade this game. With a better engine we could get more content sooner and with fewer bugs. But what do we the payers know ?

 

Focusing on the engine doesn't really apply to mods that much. True, there are definitely a ton of scripting mods out there, but the majority of mods are simply texture/geometry replacements, and various games accommodate those replacements (mods) in various ways.

 

If the OP is in fact calling to expose the code base to be an open source community effort, that's not happening.

EA is not going to let its player base to run away with its content, either in terms of engine fixes or quest update (scripting) mods, especially in a multi-player game in which such changes could easily affect class balance, create nefarious ways to make huge amounts of credits quickly, etc.

 

The deepest dive into the game's content any mod system for a multi-player game would never include anything that touches the game's engine or involve any scripting, but merely mods, as I mentioned above, that replace geometry and textures, and perhaps sound files. That's it.

Edited March 31, 2020 by xordevoreaux

This isn't the first time this suggestion was made. Under my moniker Xordevoreaux, I have published mods for Sims4, Skyrim, Skyrim SE, SimCity 4, SimCity 2013, and I might be forgetting one or two games.

 

While I support the idea of modding SWTOR (the first thing I'd do would be to create a DLC megapack for high-resolution textures on old parts of the game like Tython and Taris), I'll raise the same 2 issues that I did when modding SWTOR was brought up a previous time:

 

1. Bioware's employee base is purposefully stretched thin. We know this by the speed and volume of updates, new releases, and bug fixes. If Bioware had bodies to spare, we'd see more content with more depth, faster. As it is, with the employees they have coding and testing, I can't imagine Bioware burning salary on yet more employees to play mod police, an investment which would produce an expense, but no income.

 

2. The game's code is EA's intellectual property, the game's content is not. Ensuring player mods aren't antithetical to the wishes of Disney as far as what Disney wants mixed in with its content would indeed require the aforementioned mod police.

 

I agree that there will need to be some policing. But these aren't insurmountable issues, and IMO the benefits outweigh the costs. BW could specify the game variables and assets it wished to expose. For example, it could be that image assets aren't connected to the main game code, or could be separated. BW could pre-select the first batch of modders and require strict ToS. Someone submits a mod that makes players nude, ban 'em. Other things too--just saying, there are ways to make this resut in less work for them while letting the community fix some issues. Let's start with "unofficial patches" addressing long-time bugs, and let's go from there.

 

But I think it's past the time where they can say (by implication) "we're stretched too thin" and then also say "no mods"....

 

EDIT: by the way, I took a look at your stuff - nice!!!

Edited March 31, 2020 by Joonbeams

...

The deepest dive into the game's content any mod system for a multi-player game would never include anything that touches the game's engine or involve any scripting, but merely mods, as I mentioned above, that replace geometry and textures, and perhaps sound files. That's it.

 

More or less this. We don't need access to the engine files -- very few games allow that. Point is, there are issues (just as an example, clipping on certain robes) that lend themselves very well to mods. Not asking for new mod content, maps, worlds, or the like (at least I'm not)....

I don't know much about coding but I believe them when they say the engine they use causes the issues. They posted awhile ago or it was during a live stream that the player base would rather have more content then pause content and upgrade the engine. When I heard that I couldn't believe it. As a player from beta I would be more than happy to put a pause on content so they can upgrade this game. With a better engine we could get more content sooner and with fewer bugs. But what do we the payers know ?

 

Can't believe people are so shortsighted.

and IMO the benefits outweigh the costs.

 

As many people in many threads on this forum have alluded to in the past, the first entity any change must benefit is EA. Witness how fast bugs are fixed on the cartel market versus anywhere else.

 

Convince the bean counters in the back room that a change is worth the added expense, and that revenue lost to increased salary expenses will somehow be magically recouped later down the road, and maybe the idea will fly.

 

Convince Charles that he wants to burn money on yet more employees to make sure modders don't introduce creepy / sexually exploitative / disruptive / inappropriate mods or cheat mods, and maybe the idea will fly.

 

Convince the EA programmers who've toiled to take a pile of smelly afterthoughts from ages gone by to make a functional system, such as it is, that suddenly it's in everyone's best interest to fling the doors open wide to every half-baked self-educated sloppy undisciplined programmer out there, and maybe the idea will fly.

 

Convince the content creators that years of their efforts to remain within Disney's requirements (no Yoda species, etc.) and the carefully crafted narratives they've generated (regardless what you think of those narratives) would now somehow be subject to the content whims of any Joe Schmo waltzing in with new content.... and maybe the idea will fly.

 

Good luck with that.

Edited March 31, 2020 by xordevoreaux

EDIT: by the way, I took a look at your stuff - nice!!!

 

Thanks

More or less this. We don't need access to the engine files -- very few games allow that. Point is, there are issues (just as an example, clipping on certain robes) that lend themselves very well to mods. Not asking for new mod content, maps, worlds, or the like (at least I'm not)....

 

Taking scripting out of the equation certainly helps.

 

I don't see how to get past the problem of convincing EA that it's in their best interest to burn money on modding police, even when we're talking just geometry and textures, but I'll leave an opening for EA to be be smarter than players as to how they could get by on the resources they have to make it happen.

Edited March 31, 2020 by xordevoreaux

It would be nice if modders could at least submit fixes to graphics bugs. I bet the modder community could fix the Scourge/Vector in a bra bug very quickly!

It would be nice if modders could at least submit fixes to graphics bugs. I bet the modder community could fix the Scourge/Vector in a bra bug very quickly!

 

For mods, mod creators don't submit anything to the software company running the game.

Individual players download the creator's mod off an unaffiliated third-party site, and the mod only affects the content of whoever downloads it.

 

That would be the best way to set up mods, as overrides to content installed on player machines, rather than being something submitted to an approval committee at EA (which would affect the game for everyone), as everyone might not necessarily like a given mod's solution for something.

Edited March 31, 2020 by xordevoreaux

Can't believe people are so shortsighted.

 

I honestly don't know if that comment is in agreement or just snide attitude. But either way like I said I don't know much about coding. All I do know that this game is severely broken and it would be nice to open things up for competent people to fix issues who actually care about the game

The biggest issues you deal with are contracts , license, and a ton of legal matters to deal with … more than likely that could potentially include Disney.

 

My son worked with a group on a Modded version of SFC-3 years ago: Empires at War. It was very nicely done... models were even to scale. However … the company that was responsible for the approval and with all of the license and legal stuff was already about to break up. So that company gave approval for the Mod... there were even a couple of the original development team members that helped with the MOD.

 

That said... IMO .. while there might some benefits to the project of creating MODS for SWTOR ...the legal stuff involved would probably prevent this sort of thing from happening.

 

I DO wish that some of the development companies could and would hire freelancers in art / coding / modeling etc. BUT from what I have seen and heard (directly from those experiences in the past) Gamers are not hired or their work utilized (or too many suggestions taken seriously) . It's kind of an unwritten rule that is never violated. Or at least that was the case back then. And YES this is the testimony from those contacts that both my son and I had back several years ago. I don't necessarily agree with it … but it seems to be the case all too often.

 

Which is kind of ashamed really. There are a lot of younger folks that are really talented.

(What I wouldn't give to be better at 3-D modeling)..

 

At any rate. Please don't take this as a rant or an indictment against the idea or suggestion. IMO … just a lot of obstacles to over come.

 

Me …. personally... I've learned to appreciate the talent that it takes to put together a game like this. And I'm not about to be overly critical of those who are working to keep this game going.

 

I hope this makes sense.

Edited April 1, 2020 by OlBuzzard

lol, while there are some very good business/manpower/legal points mentioned here for why this is infeasible, I feel people are seriously underestimating the massive amount of technical effort it would take to allow code mods to be possible, not to mention safe for people to use. Even if they could convince EA it should be done, there is no real practical way to actually do it.

 

The game was not designed for modding. To add this feature, it would take a near re-write of the entire client. No, I am not exaggerating that.

 

This will never happen. Sorry

 

 

That being said, client side asset modding is possible (what I mean by that is mods to alter models/textures etc. that are only visible on the client the mod is installed on). This would require almost no effort to setup (really all it requires is for BW to relax the rules in regards to talking about game files/modding) and as it would be entirely opt-in would require no real policing.

I honestly don't know if that comment is in agreement or just snide attitude. But either way like I said I don't know much about coding. All I do know that this game is severely broken and it would be nice to open things up for competent people to fix issues who actually care about the game

 

It was indeed meant as an agreement.

lol, while there are some very good business/manpower/legal points mentioned here for why this is infeasible, I feel people are seriously underestimating the massive amount of technical effort it would take to allow code mods to be possible, not to mention safe for people to use. Even if they could convince EA it should be done, there is no real practical way to actually do it.

 

The game was not designed for modding. To add this feature, it would take a near re-write of the entire client. No, I am not exaggerating that.

 

This will never happen. Sorry

 

 

That being said, client side asset modding is possible (what I mean by that is mods to alter models/textures etc. that are only visible on the client the mod is installed on). This would require almost no effort to setup (really all it requires is for BW to relax the rules in regards to talking about game files/modding) and as it would be entirely opt-in would require no real policing.

 

Not that this is wrong per se, but it is exaggerated. The issues here are not technical, and a "re-write of the entire client" (whatever that means; here I'm assuming it means source or server) is not required. Any game can be modded. I want to make that clear: from a software perspective any game can be modded. Just as an example, keep in mind that any time you see "hackers" in this or any other game, they are just modders with bad intentions.

 

That said, some games (likely this one) are harder than others, especially those where modding was never factored into the original design (or, was intentionally attempted to be factored out). And I agree with you and Xordev and others that dev support and resources are very important (how much, and moreso how much relative to the value added, is really an open question). But even without any dev support or tools, the game could be modded. For example GTA V had no official toolset and was heavily modded for years by an active open-source community (helps to have millions of active players too...)

 

Being technically feasible doesn't end the inquiry, I agree. We'd need EA/BW/Disney approval. And, to be valuable, there would need to be some dev support. Also a community is needed. Perhaps all of that sinks the notion entirely--and I understand that cynicism. But IMO, that's an entirely insufficient argument from the devs (I could elaborate if needed).

 

FWIW, my cynical hat suspects that it's different motives (namely CM which rakes on cosmetic items) that are the blockers in the end. But as long as we're seeing visual glitches and bugs that have persisted for years and aren't being addressed, this option should be kept on the table....

 

FWIW, my cynical hat suspects that it's different motives (namely CM which rakes on cosmetic items) that are the blockers in the end. But as long as we're seeing visual glitches and bugs that have persisted for years and aren't being addressed, this option should be kept on the table....

 

Probably the most salient point in this entire thread. EA wouldn't want recolors of mounts / armor / etc. made by modders competing with its own cartel market, which contains tons of recolors of the same 3D mesh.

Excellent point.

This probably won't be entertained right now, since EA is all about the money and modders can do things for free that are as good or better than the devs they pay, but I wonder if it would be an option if/when the game is finished. Are defunct games still accessible after they stop supporting them or do they delete everything? I hope they don't, even if this ends up turning into just another single player RPG.

but I wonder if it would be an option if/when the game is finished. Are defunct games still accessible after they stop supporting them or do they delete everything?

 

TLDR: When this game goes defunct, it will stay defunct.

 

The question of continued support for the game after it runs its course is a bit off-topic from this thread, but this wouldn't be the first thread on this forum to be derailed, so here's my answer:

 

I've witnessed the end of Warhammer Online, Archlord, SWG, The Matrix, Pirates of the Burning Sea, Vanguard, and several other MMOs.

 

EA, one day, just like Sony did with SWG, will stop supporting SWTOR and shut it down. We all know this. It's not something I say to taunt EA or frighten players. It's been in black and white in a contract with Disney now for almost ten years, which was the original stipulated time frame for the contract. That contract needs renewal or needs to be converted to a perpetual agreement for the game to continue.

 

So, barring either, the game will one day end, and we'll all deactivate our light sabers for the last time. Hopefully it will have been a good run.

 

That said, before I go further, please understand that supporting a game must be distinguished from owning its intellectual property. Do not conflate the two. Just because EA will one day shutter SWTOR doesn't mean that the company will suddenly cease to own it or suddenly have no regard for what happens to it. The source code to run the game belongs to EA. It's EA's intellectual property.

 

Once EA shuts the game down, any attempt to resurrect the game on another set of servers somewhere by a third party risks the wrath of EA's lawyers. Even *IF* by some great magnanimous decision on EA's part at the end of SWTOR's life the company willfully tosses the source code to the game's fans and says here folks, have it, good luck, enjoy...

 

...there's Disney. The Star Wars franchise is Disney's intellectual property. To make use of, indicate, suggest, borrow from, etc., any intellectual property without signing an intellectual commercial licensing agreement risks a court-ordered shut-down of those third-party servers (and expect Disney to file not only a cease-and-desist order but piracy charges).

 

Fan-supported SWG is well-known for having emulators.

And lawsuits.

 

The second Disney decides what anyone is doing to support SWTOR would muscle in on anything Disney wants to do, game over. It's not news to see a SWG server pop up only to die after a cease-and-desist letter:

 

"Of course, the Death Star hanging over the whole endeavor is still Disney. If the project gains more users or too much of a large profile, they could easily receive a cease and desist." -- Daryl Baxter, Tech Radar

 

The issue of IP aside, the second issue is cost.

 

How much will Rack Space or another co-location data center charge anyone to run a set of servers? How will those people keeping the game running (legally or illegally) defray the cost? When it comes to running a server with the expectation of supporting SWTOR's current fan base, it's either go big or go home. There's no in between. Not if you expect to serve the entire player base.

 

IP and cost are just two issues among a broad spectrum of considerations.

 

Follow-through on bug fixes that people start and abandon is another. In an open-source project, which is what the game would be at that point, people might talk big and say yeah I'll fix that, toss a few lines of codes at it, then disappear when their final exams start. I have no fewer than 6 bugs that are approaching a year old that I logged with LibreOffice. They are confirmed by the LO team as legitimate bugs, and the bugs are still rotting unassigned all this time because apparently LO's main graphics guy either burned out or flaked out and stopped making comprehensive changes. My bugs have blocks on them from 20+ other bugs from other people that must be addressed first, and he hasn't touched any of them. So goes the world of open source.

 

I wrote this just to expose some of the more prevalent issues. There are many.

Good luck.

Edited April 2, 2020 by xordevoreaux

With the number of bugs and other issues, and given the lean resources allocated to this game, isn't it time for BW/EA to lift the block on the modding community and allow other willing coders to help out the game? BW doesn't even have to accept all mods -- they could and QC an approve the ones they like, and pass on others. What am I missing here? Everyone wins....

 

If that happens I will contact old friends I worked with before modding Mass Effect.

You have my support.

I guess some people don't get that there are only about 3 bugs that could be fixed by modders.... because those are the client side bugs... they'd never let the public touch server side code, and that's where all the bugs are.