For all those of you aren’t aware, the Kaggath is an ancient rite of the Sith, ‘one part duel, one part large-scale dejarik-match’. The two combatants have full use of their power bases, be it armies, strongholds or fleets, in order to outwit and outmanoeuvre their opponent. But the Kaggath is no simple lightsaber duel, although it can come down to one, and the arena can be anywhere: a planet, star system or the entire galaxy.

 

Before we begin, let’s go over the ground rules:

 

 

• The arena: Ord Mantell – see the faction rundowns for BOEs.
  
• #1 The Kaggath is won or lost when the leader of either faction is killed.
  
• #2 No outside help of any kind, the combatants cannot call upon assets outside their power base or influence.
  
• #3 No outside involvement, other powers will not and cannot interrupt or affect the battle, for the purpose of argument they are non-existent.
  
• #4 No surrender, fight to the death!
  
• #5 Apathy is death. Factions are not allowed to hide or wait. They must act.
  
• #6 Technology level is universal (unless considered archaic or advanced at the time): blaster fire, armouring, lightsabers etc. are all the same regardless of period, all that matters is size, quantity and power.
  
• #7 Factions are autonomous – players have no control over their faction’s decisions, this is instead determined by the nature of their leadership.
  

 

Read the full rulebook here.

 

So, the combatants: Forged from the flames of war and hatred, Karadron’s Galactic Alliance has united Empire and Alliance alike under a single flag, dedicated to spreading peace and justice throughout the galaxy they have come to Ord Mantell to cleanse the world of darkness and corruption. And in their way stand my very own Phantom Hegemony, a shadowy organisation helmed by Vader’s dark apprentice, they seek to induct another world into their fold as they seek to build a new Empire.

 

Behold the factions!

 

Galactic Alliance of Free Imperiums

Base of Operations: Fort Garnik

 

Leadership

 

Head of State: Supreme Commander Gilad Pellaeon

Second-in-Command: Garm Bel Iblis

Allies: Tholme & Jaina Solo

Supplier: Yutrane-Trackata [Aridus]

Organisation: Bothan Spynet [bothawui]

 

Ground Forces

 

Major Ground Force: Stormtroopers/501st Legion [2,304]

Minor Ground Force: Rebel SpecForce Troopers [640]

 

Light Vehicle: All Terrain Scout Transport (AT-ST) [43]

2nd Light Vehicle: TX-130T Fighter Tank [53]

Heavy Vehicle: All Terrain Tactical Enforcer (AT-TE) [11]

 

Naval Forces

 

Fighter Classes: A-Wing

Bomber Class: TIE Bomber

Elite Class: TIE Phantom

 

Light Capital Ship: Dreadnaught-class heavy cruiser [13]

Heavy Capital Ship: Nebula-class star destroyer [7]

Flagship: Chimaera [imperial II-class star destroyer]

 

Naval Officers: Rebel Alliance

 

vs

 

The Phantom Hegemony

Base of Operations: Separatist Stronghold

 

Leadership

 

Head of State: Lumiya, Dark Lady of the Sith

Second-in-Command: General Grievous

Allies: Savage Opress and Ziro the Hutt

Supplier: Baktoid Industries [Geonosis]

Organisation: Imperial Intelligence [bastion]

 

Ground Forces

 

Major Ground Force: B2 super battle droids [5,460]

Minor Ground Force: Storm Commandos [40]

 

Light Vehicle: All Terrain Missile Platform (AT-MP) [40]

2nd Light Vehicle: Carbonite war droid [20]

Heavy Vehicle: Octuptarra magna tri-droid [14]

 

Naval Forces

 

Fighter Classes: Droid tri-fighter

Bomber Class: Hyena-class bomber

Elite Class: HMP Predator

 

Light Capital Ship: Munificent-class star frigate [7]

2nd Light Capital Ship: Escort carrier [12]

Heavy Capital Ship: Recusant-class light destroyer [16]

Flagship: Malevolence [subjugator-class heavy cruiser]

 

Naval Officers: Confederacy of Independent Systems

 

Edited October 13, 2014 by Beniboybling

OK, given that I am participating in this Kaggath not only will Aurbere be arbitrating but my powers will be diminished.

 

To remind everyone of what that entails, I'll post the relevant section from the Rulebook here:

 

Anyway I solemnly swear not to bribe Aurbere with Wookieeookies blah blah blah, lets move on to important notes:

 

 

• The Malevolence does not possess its ion cannon, consider it a non-superweapon variant.
   
   
  
• Karadron's SpecForce Troopers consists of SpaceOps, Pathfinders, Urban Combat Specialists, Wilderness Fighters and Heavy Weapons Specialists divided into equal parts i.e 128 troopers per regiment.
   
   
  

And that's basically it, I would note though that although I don't have arbiter powers I'm still around to be consulting on the rules and what not, so fire away. However game changing decisions are entirely in Aurbere's hand.

 

Unless I decided to Rule 66 him.

 

EDIT: Map of Ord Mantell below.

 

http://potshot.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/ord-mantell.png

Edited October 18, 2014 by Beniboybling

I'm busy with school at the moment so I'll invite everyone to pick a side and get to debating. I'll post some topics to consider when I am available.

 

On another note, I would advise keeping ground discussions to a minimum during the space debate. I am taking tallies of both at once, but I do plan on a recount, so going back through space to recount ground tallies would be a major pain.

Unless I decided to Rule 66 him.

 

You can't! I must stand trial!

*Grabs Darth Sidious mask from Beni's hand* No order 66 for you mr!

 

Also, love the name Phantom Hegemony....

 

Looks to be a good match, I won't lie to you, I'm going to support the underdog the entire way, whoever that is. I have a feeling you're just going to barrage Karadron with walls of text so I'm here to help him

Do we have any idea on how many star fighters of each kind the GA has?

 

Also, this might just be my opinion of the fighter, but isn't the Tri-Droid more of an elite fighter than a standard fighter?

 

I will say though that I think that the GA has the tactical edge due to Gilad Pellaeon and Garm Bel Iblis.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Silenceo

You can't! I must stand trial!

LOL!

*Grabs Darth Sidious mask from Beni's hand* No order 66 for you mr!

 

Also, love the name Phantom Hegemony....

 

Looks to be a good match, I won't lie to you, I'm going to support the underdog the entire way, whoever that is. I have a feeling you're just going to barrage Karadron with walls of text so I'm here to help him

Give that back!

 

I spent ages thinking of it lol.

 

I won't lie when I say I have some walls of text in hand, but I'm going to give Karadron the opportunity to prepare some arguments, and let everyone trash my fleet its windows before I start debating.

Do we have any idea on how many star fighters of each kind the GA has?

 

Also, this might just be my opinion of the fighter, but isn't the Tri-Droid more of an elite fighter than a standard fighter?

 

I will say though that I think that the GA has the tactical edge due to Gilad Pellaeon and Garm Bel Iblis.

I classed the tri-droid as a space superiority fighter, but I don't think it has the versatility of an elite fighter which should excel against capital ships and fighters as well as be exceptional in other categories were the tri-droid is lacking.

 

And I think that's reflected by the fact that they were used in equal numbers with Vulture-droids on CIS cruisers.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Beniboybling

LOL!Give that back!

 

I spent ages thinking of it lol.

 

I won't lie when I say I have some walls of text in hand, but I'm going to give Karadron the opportunity to prepare some arguments, and let everyone trash my fleet its windows before I start debating.

 

Ship to Ship firepower actually seems pretty equal, if not actually leaning in the GA's favor, albeit a bit more spread out. However, I do not see much star fighter defenses, which could be crucial to the space battle. Luckily there are so few Hyenas, so it is possible for that to still squeak by. Further pondering, initiate!

Most important thing to note about Space: MUNIFICENT's SUCK.

 

So bad.

 

Like.... really really bad. A single venator could take out 8, which is believe it or not more than beni's current compliment. Dreadnaughts are a far superior Vessel and would eat a munificent for breakfast.

 

On the other side of things, the Malevolence is a beast of a warship. I'd estimate about 600-700 batteries in total, Ion canons however would likely be a minimum, because of it's primary weapon. This leave's the ship a bit off on the Capital ship to Capital ship firepower, and Beni's fleet does indeed lack Ion weaponry, but to be honest the diversity isnt much and probably wont make much of a difference.

 

The Malevolence has some incredible forward firepower, if that ship bears down on something it won't last long. This splits Karadron's forces into either picking apart Munificents and retreating, to later attack the malevolence (The ***** is slow) or Ganging on the Malevolence and hoping to come out on top.

 

The Chimaera would at least provide a valid distraction.

 

The Escort carrier is a good source of fighters though won't make a difference in the Light ship to Light ship battle, Karadron comes out on top.

 

The Recusants and Nebula's would be a good match up, but the superior design of the Nebula I feel would allow them to come out on top here. Combine this with the fact that Recusants don't have a good track record with large fleet battles (many collisions) I think the Heavy Capital ships fall to Karadron too. The malevolence however will be the deciding factor here.

 

All the fighters are pretty average, so I'm going to go ahead and just skip those.

 

Tacticians wise, the Galactic Alliance stomps. No offence Beni, but grevious sucked. His idea of strategy was throwing ships, in the style of "More. MORE. MORE. MORRREEE... MOOOOAAARRRRR" hoping to overcome his enemies. Pellaeon and Garm Bel Iblis would eat him alive.

 

Again though, Malevolence. And Grevious knows his fleet, it's weaknesses, and he's not adverse to leading his own boarding parties...

Some vague star fighter numbers for the GA

 

Dreadnaughts: 156

 

Nebula's: 420

 

Chimera: 72

 

Total: 648

 

I hope Karadron brings forth something to help counter enemy star fighters, or at least the Hyenas, because numbers wise and quality wise he is outgunned.

 

Though, the Tie Phantom could do quite a bit of damage with the tactics of their commanders being what they are. Perhaps they could be crucial here...

Edited October 6, 2014 by Silenceo

Some vague star fighter numbers for the GA

 

Dreadnaughts: 156

 

Nebula's: 420

 

Chimera: 72

 

Total: 648

 

I hope Karadron brings forth something to help counter enemy star fighters, or at least the Hyenas, because numbers wise and quality wise he is outgunned.

 

Though, the Tie Phantom could do quite a bit of damage with the tactics of their commanders being what they are. Perhaps they could be crucial here...

 

This is what I found as well.

So I would like to advise Beni and Karadron start with opening arguments/faction breakdowns. Give us an idea of what you think your faction will do and how it will deal with the enemy.

 

In addition here are some space topics to consider:

 

1. General Grievous vs. Gilad Pellaeon/Garm Bel Iblis (Whoever is in space). Who is the superior tactician and what impact will that have on the battle?

2. Tactics both sides will use.

3. Jaina Solo in a starfighter.

4. Impact of the Malevolence

5. Assassinating Naval Commanders

6. Boarding Parties

7. Ship-to-Ship Comparisons

Edited October 6, 2014 by Aurbere

Who is the superior tactician?

 

That is the single most ridiculous question I've ever heard you ask.

I'd hold on my space write up for now, but I will dispute this notion that Grievous is somehow an inferior tactician. I certainly wholeheartedly reject the notion that Grievous somehow "sucked" - this is plainly non-canonical.

 

Instead lets look at the facts:

 

...Their military assets formed a droid army of seemingly limitless size -- a weapon that needed a military mastermind to be wielded effectively.

 

From within the ranks of the Confederacy came General Grievous, a brilliant strategist unhindered by compassion or scruples. His lightning strikes and effective campaigns caused his reputation to grow in the eyes of a frightened Republic. To many, he eclipsed the threat posed by Count Dooku, the charismatic leader of the Confederacy's political battlefields -- Grievous was the face of the enemy.

 

…

 

Before rebuilt as a cyborg warrior, General Grievous was one of the greatest military masterminds the Kaleesh people had seen.

 

…

 

Following that bloody debut, scattered reports along the HoloNet told of numerous successes in the Office of the General's campaigns against the Republic. Grievous led a stab into the Republic's inner systems along the Corellian Trade Spine, conquering world after world. When Duro fell to a concentrated Confederacy attack, the insulated Core Worlds trembled in fear of what the General was able to achieve.

 

--Taken from the Databank (archived)

 

Grievous is a military genius, and crushed the Republic time and time again. Let's not be swayed into thinking the General Grievous, the highest ranking military leader in the CIS, was incompetent due to his portrayal in the TCW show.

 

In regards to the competition, though I don't doubt the abilities of the opposition, when the Clone Wars began Pellaeon was a mere Captain while Grievous was cracking skulls as the Supreme Commander of the Droid Army. He may have turned into an excellent strategist after years of experience and hard work, but Grievous was brilliant from the start.

That is the single most ridiculous question I've ever heard you ask.

 

Is it? I think there can be a debate to be had there.

Is it? I think there can be a debate to be had there.

I'd argue Grievous is superior, and that post-ROTJ tacticians are overhyped.

I'd argue Grievous is superior, and that post-ROTJ tacticians are overhyped.

 

Most post-ROTJ tacticians, right? Right?

Edited October 6, 2014 by Aurbere

Most post-ROTJ tacticians, right? Right?

Well, Thrawn does take the ticket.

 

No, but really, I I do believe that the likes of Pelleaon, Nek, Wedge etc. are massively overhyped. Clearly these tacticians have skills yes but they one battles, not wars, they are pieces of a whole. I don't put them up there with the real era heavyweights i.e. Grievous, Revan, Thrawn, Ackbar. The kinds of tacticians who masterminded galactic scale conflicts, and single-handedly turn the tides, the sort of tacticians whose very mention left their opponents cowering in fear.

 

Well, Imperials don't cower, but you get the idea.

Well, Thrawn does take the ticket.

 

No, but really, I I do believe that the likes of Pelleaon, Nek, Wedge etc. are massively overhyped. Clearly these tacticians have skills yes but they one battles, not wars, they are pieces of a whole. I don't put them up there with the real era heavyweights i.e. Grievous, Revan, Thrawn, Ackbar. The kinds of tacticians who masterminded galactic scale conflicts, and single-handedly turn the tides, the sort of tacticians whose very mention left their opponents cowering in fear.

 

Well, Imperials don't cower, but you get the idea.

 

I get it, certainly I do. I've felt similarly.

Is it possible for the Head of State to be assassinated in the space battle, provided they participate?

Well, Thrawn does take the ticket.

 

No, but really, I I do believe that the likes of Pelleaon, Nek, Wedge etc. are massively overhyped. Clearly these tacticians have skills yes but they one battles, not wars, they are pieces of a whole. I don't put them up there with the real era heavyweights i.e. Grievous, Revan, Thrawn, Ackbar. The kinds of tacticians who masterminded galactic scale conflicts, and single-handedly turn the tides, the sort of tacticians whose very mention left their opponents cowering in fear.

 

Well, Imperials don't cower, but you get the idea.

 

Nah.

 

The thing with Post ROTJ tacticians is the well of Knowledge they could draw on, their ingenuity etc. The Rebellion era was born out of a dark age where no one had command experience, new styles arose that were really ingenious and devastating.

 

The thing is, Wedge, Pellaeon, Nek, all of them were the Revans, Thrawns, Ackbars of their ages. They were born out of the Naval renaissanse that was the post ROTJ era...

 

Also, if you ever put Grevious in the same list as Revan, Thrawn, or Ackbar again, you'll find yourself joining LeGenD on my ignore list.

Is it possible for the Head of State to be assassinated in the space battle, provided they participate?

#117 Neither Heads of State can perish in the initial space battle, however Second-in-Command's and Allies from both sides can perish - ultimately who if any members of Leadership are killed will be decided by the Arbiter.

 

So in this case Pellaeon is protected by plot armor, Grievous is not.

Nah.

 

The thing with Post ROTJ tacticians is the well of Knowledge they could draw on, their ingenuity etc. The Rebellion era was born out of a dark age where no one had command experience, new styles arose that were really ingenious and devastating.

 

The thing is, Wedge, Pellaeon, Nek, all of them were the Revans, Thrawns, Ackbars of their ages. They were born out of the Naval renaissanse that was the post ROTJ era...

 

Also, if you ever put Grevious in the same list as Revan, Thrawn, or Ackbar again, you'll find yourself joining LeGenD on my ignore list.

A good point, but they still lack the naval achievements of those others mentioned.

 

And if you continue to fail to provide proof, I will stop taking you seriously.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Beniboybling

I'd hold on my space write up for now, but I will dispute this notion that Grievous is somehow an inferior tactician. I certainly wholeheartedly reject the notion that Grievous somehow "sucked" - this is plainly non-canonical.

 

Instead lets look at the facts:

 

...Their military assets formed a droid army of seemingly limitless size -- a weapon that needed a military mastermind to be wielded effectively.

 

From within the ranks of the Confederacy came General Grievous, a brilliant strategist unhindered by compassion or scruples. His lightning strikes and effective campaigns caused his reputation to grow in the eyes of a frightened Republic. To many, he eclipsed the threat posed by Count Dooku, the charismatic leader of the Confederacy's political battlefields -- Grievous was the face of the enemy.

 

…

 

Before rebuilt as a cyborg warrior, General Grievous was one of the greatest military masterminds the Kaleesh people had seen.

 

…

 

Following that bloody debut, scattered reports along the HoloNet told of numerous successes in the Office of the General's campaigns against the Republic. Grievous led a stab into the Republic's inner systems along the Corellian Trade Spine, conquering world after world. When Duro fell to a concentrated Confederacy attack, the insulated Core Worlds trembled in fear of what the General was able to achieve.

 

--Taken from the Databank (archived)

 

Grievous is a military genius, and crushed the Republic time and time again. Let's not be swayed into thinking the General Grievous, the highest ranking military leader in the CIS, was incompetent due to his portrayal in the TCW show.

 

In regards to the competition, though I don't doubt the abilities of the opposition, when the Clone Wars began Pellaeon was a mere Captain while Grievous was cracking skulls as the Supreme Commander of the Droid Army. He may have turned into an excellent strategist after years of experience and hard work, but Grievous was brilliant from the start.

 

None of these quotes dismiss what I'm saying, hell, the first one even agrees with me.

 

Grevious was good on the whole, his genius was taking fleets, keeping their location secret or coming up with Crazy *** ideas. He however sucked in ship to ship combat, was out moved constantly by the likes of Kenobi, Skywalker and others. He was inconsistent in his feats because his enemies were unconventional.

 

But yes, his tactical genius was galactic scale, moving fleets into the right planet right as the enemy had vacated, or resupplied. His fleet was the definition of stealth, no one ever knew where he was.

 

It's entirely different here, in this round it's only done on the basis of Fleet to Fleet battles, and that's where Grevious is sorely lacking.