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Lost Island HM should have better loot.


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I'm not against difficulty, but the drop should match its difficulty for the majority, the drop should give upgrade to the majority who can do it, that's being fair. And that's most of the good games are doing.

 

Also LI is different than some OPS, its difficulty of the 3 bosses are around the same level, all of them are significantly more difficult than all the Tier 1 HM bosses and very hard for Tionese groups. So it's not like most of the people with Tionese can at least clean 1-2 bosses, get the upgrade and try to do more next time.

 

And I don't understand what are you people against? Would the LR-5/Sav Rak fight have less fun if they drop Rakata? No. Will the majority try it with Tionese right now? No, but with better gears, more people will be willing to do it.

 

You don't understand, because you don't want to understand. It has been said by numerous people lots of times that the reason why this wouldn't be feasible is how the flashpoints are infinitely repeatable to obtain full rakata gear rather than through the traditional way of weekly operation attending. The reward already offered in HM LI is well in accordance with it's difficulty. Rakata Chestpiece is among the most difficult to obtain Rakata item in the game, and I know a lot of people who have even BH gear but no weapon, that Columi weapon given there is also quite often sought for. I am not even adding the pet and the mount, not to mention the 8 additional BH comms to your already 5.

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I'm not against difficulty, but the drop should match its difficulty for the majority, the drop should give upgrade to the majority who can do it, that's being fair. And that's most of the good games are doing.

 

...

Here's the thing, saying that the drops don't match the difficulty is just another way of saying it is too difficult.

 

If Bioware actually changed the drops in HM LI to all Rakata, this sets a precedent. Why stop at HM LI? SM TfB is harder than HM LI. That only drops Rakata except for the last boss. Should that be changed to drop Black Hole on every boss? HM EC is harder than SM TfB, but that only drops Campaign. Should that be changed to drop Hazmat and Dread Guard?

 

You're arguing in favor of gear escalation by an entire tier (56 to 58). Bioware hasn't done that on ANY of their content tweaks. On the other hand, they HAVE nerfed content and made it easier. Your insistence that HM LI is too hard will result in:

 

1) The level designers ignore you and leave it untouched, or

2) HM LI get's nerfed yet again.

 

This is why I press my case. I don't want it to be nerfed.

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You don't understand, because you don't want to understand. It has been said by numerous people lots of times that the reason why this wouldn't be feasible is how the flashpoints are infinitely repeatable to obtain full rakata gear rather than through the traditional way of weekly operation attending. The reward already offered in HM LI is well in accordance with it's difficulty. Rakata Chestpiece is among the most difficult to obtain Rakata item in the game, and I know a lot of people who have even BH gear but no weapon, that Columi weapon given there is also quite often sought for. I am not even adding the pet and the mount, not to mention the 8 additional BH comms to your already 5.

 

So what? Rakata is no big deal now, and its implants/earpieces/relics can be obtained with daily com. Only SI/JC could not get their MH with strip out offhand weapon's mods.

 

And you get none of these(beside the pet) unless you beat Lorrick, but the 3 bosses share the same difficulty. Which means you get none of these after the hard work against LR-5 and Sav-Rak.

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...

 

Would the LR-5/Sav Rak fight have less fun if they drop Rakata? No. Will the majority try it with Tionese right now? No, but with better gears, more people will be willing to do it.

(emphasis added by me)

 

On my first level 50 (the one I had so much trouble with HM LI and wiped over and over and over again), I wanted to do HM LI for four reasons:

 

1. I wanted the satisfaction of beating LR-5, who had caused me so many repair bills.

2. Despite several HM EV pug runs, I had yet to win the Rakata Chestpiece off of Soa.

3. Being a Commando dps I couldn't get the offhand off of Battle of Ilum and rip out the barrel, so I still needed the Columi mainhand.

4. The Midnight Rakling is one of the rarest pets in the game and I thought it would be awesome to have it.

 

The day that I FIRST finished HM LI, I was wearing 4 pieces of Black Hole (BH comms from the group finder) and Rakata ear/implants from daily comms.

 

So despite being massively overgeared for HM LI, I still had rewards awaiting me for finishing the instance. The risk vs rewards aren't so great as you are describing.

 

Note that on my third level 50, I went through HM LI wearing 1/2 Columi and every single drop was an upgrade. I didn't actually WIN every drop, but had I done so, each would have been an upgrade.

 

This is far. Fair fair fair fair fair. Fair.

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Here's the thing, saying that the drops don't match the difficulty is just another way of saying it is too difficult.

 

If Bioware actually changed the drops in HM LI to all Rakata, this sets a precedent. Why stop at HM LI? SM TfB is harder than HM LI. That only drops Rakata except for the last boss. Should that be changed to drop Black Hole on every boss? HM EC is harder than SM TfB, but that only drops Campaign. Should that be changed to drop Hazmat and Dread Guard?

 

You're arguing in favor of gear escalation by an entire tier (56 to 58). Bioware hasn't done that on ANY of their content tweaks. On the other hand, they HAVE nerfed content and made it easier. Your insistence that HM LI is too hard will result in:

 

1) The level designers ignore you and leave it untouched, or

2) HM LI get's nerfed yet again.

 

This is why I press my case. I don't want it to be nerfed.

 

Bioware did, they added Exotech and Columi implants/earpieces to Tier 1 HM, that's what I'm asking them to do for LI.

 

And yes, they will nerf TFB and possibly EC HM once new OPS and Tier is out to avoid huge gear gap between characters.

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(emphasis added by me)

 

On my first level 50 (the one I had so much trouble with HM LI and wiped over and over and over again), I wanted to do HM LI for four reasons:

 

1. I wanted the satisfaction of beating LR-5, who had caused me so many repair bills.

2. Despite several HM EV pug runs, I had yet to win the Rakata Chestpiece off of Soa.

3. Being a Commando dps I couldn't get the offhand off of Battle of Ilum and rip out the barrel, so I still needed the Columi mainhand.

4. The Midnight Rakling is one of the rarest pets in the game and I thought it would be awesome to have it.

 

The day that I FIRST finished HM LI, I was wearing 4 pieces of Black Hole (BH comms from the group finder) and Rakata ear/implants from daily comms.

 

So despite being massively overgeared for HM LI, I still had rewards awaiting me for finishing the instance. The risk vs rewards aren't so great as you are describing.

 

Note that on my third level 50, I went through HM LI wearing 1/2 Columi and every single drop was an upgrade. I didn't actually WIN every drop, but had I done so, each would have been an upgrade.

 

This is far. Fair fair fair fair fair. Fair.

 

1. And once you beat it's over, also too many wipes with pugs could let many people stop think of it, especially it does not drop good gear.

2. Get BH chest piece.

3. No, as Commando(Same as Mercenary right?) you can do it, buy a offhand blaster and strip out the mods, just it won't be tank MH.

4. Not everyone likes it, I saw it drop last week and passed on it.

 

So you admit even you have to overgear it when you firstly finish it. Then why shouldn't Bioware change it? So it's your 3rd char and you need at least half Columi for pugs, but others need at least full Columi.

Edited by Slowpokeking
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And I don't understand what are you people against? Would the LR-5/Sav Rak fight have less fun if they drop Rakata? No. Will the majority try it with Tionese right now? No, but with better gears, more people will be willing to do it.

 

There are already plenty of people that do it. The problem is that a lot of people go into it undergeared and not knowing what they're doing. Improving the gear that drops from successful runs isn't going to do anything about either of those. In fact, making it drop all Rakata gear would probably make it get *more* undergeared people running it because it would let them completely skip over EV KP and the SM version of EC and TfB from a gear progression standpoint.

 

HM LI is *not* a hard instance. The gear requirement for it is nowhere *near* what most people run it at and the gear it drops is appropriate for the *gear that is required to complete it*. Just because most people can't run it without vastly overgearing it because they're largely incompetent and have no idea how to do basic research or follow strats beyond the simplest of tank/spank doesn't mean that the said players should be *rewarded* for having to overgear the content in question *especially* when doing so would fundamentally screw up character gear progression.

 

Improving the drops for HM LI isn't needed: plenty of people already run it without problem, and it's not going to make the fights spontaneously easier for those people that have problems with the mechanics because they've got to actually finish those fights to get that gear.

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There are already plenty of people that do it. The problem is that a lot of people go into it undergeared and not knowing what they're doing. Improving the gear that drops from successful runs isn't going to do anything about either of those. In fact, making it drop all Rakata gear would probably make it get *more* undergeared people running it because it would let them completely skip over EV KP and the SM version of EC and TfB from a gear progression standpoint.

 

HM LI is *not* a hard instance. The gear requirement for it is nowhere *near* what most people run it at and the gear it drops is appropriate for the *gear that is required to complete it*. Just because most people can't run it without vastly overgearing it because they're largely incompetent and have no idea how to do basic research or follow strats beyond the simplest of tank/spank doesn't mean that the said players should be *rewarded* for having to overgear the content in question *especially* when doing so would fundamentally screw up character gear progression.

 

Improving the drops for HM LI isn't needed: plenty of people already run it without problem, and it's not going to make the fights spontaneously easier for those people that have problems with the mechanics because they've got to actually finish those fights to get that gear.

 

I had groups with a lot of people and I don't see the "plenty" as you claimed, Tionese groups I've met never beat LR-5 or even get close. Even these people in the thread could only do it with really good groups and that's mostly after they did it with better gear. We need at least Columi to beat it. And the game should balance the drop base on its majority rather than a few elite runners.

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And the game should balance the drop base on its majority rather than a few elite runners.

 

No, the game should drop what is appropriate for the intended gear level that the content was designed for. The content was *designed* such that it can be completed by a group in Tionese if executed exactly as intended. The fact that most people *can't* execute the content exactly as intended (interrupting asap, killing adds asap, not standing in bad stuff, blowing CDs to survive burst damage phases) and have to overgear it because they've got poor execution has no bearing upon what the drops should be.

 

The difficulty of HM LI is completely separate from the gear requirements. It requires a reasonably skilled *player* behind the keyboard, not just a keyboard smasher with a well geared character. Tweaking the gear rewards won't make people more likely to do it (most people will *still* wipe continually when they're first learning it while the people that already know it will still just laugh their way through), and it would only screw up the existing progression that's *already* been heavily compressed by the addition and prevalence of BH comms and is getting compressed even more with 1.6 providing full Tionese to every 50 immediately.

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I had groups with a lot of people and I don't see the "plenty" as you claimed, Tionese groups I've met never beat LR-5 or even get close. Even these people in the thread could only do it with really good groups and that's mostly after they did it with better gear. We need at least Columi to beat it. And the game should balance the drop base on its majority rather than a few elite runners.

I believe that what is really needed is a clear explanation of strategy. This is most effectively done in vent by someone who really knows what to do.

 

I had been unable to pass the fight in Black Hole/Rakata despite reading strategies and watching videos. It only took ONE TIME in vent with another player who walked us through every encounter and we finally mastered the fights. I have done the same for other people, people who previously thought the encounters were practically impossible. One of the players I taught went on to teach other players the same way. She actually spent most of of a weekend doing about 10 runs with different people in her new guild who hadn't been able to master HM LI.

 

So I've personally seen at least 20 players who went from "HM LI is too damned difficult" to "Wow, I can do HM LI!"

 

I wish you were on Begeren Colony, because I firmly believe that I could get you into vent and take you through the fights in such a way that you would know how to run them cleanly and this would change your mind about how difficult it is (or isn't).

 

Edit: Pro tip. If you are on interrupt detail for LR-5, are you catching incinerate within 0.7 seconds of the cast? If you are, good. If not, here's what I suggest to people having troubles.

 

1. Turn on "Focus Target"

2. Make it nice and big so you can see the cast bar.

3. Bind your Interrupt to one of your mouse buttons closest to your thumb. For me I use my "Browser Forward" mouse button.

 

If I'm on interrupt detail I can catch incinerate before the 1-stack mark 95% of the time with this method.

 

This works as a tank, dps or healer. If you're a healer on interrupt detail (even though I don't recommend it) you can still catch it before one-stack by hitting tab (left pinky)+interrupt (right thumb) as soon as you see the cast bar, then go back to healing.

 

Edit Edit: Pro Tip #2, There is an exact pattern to the flaming grates. And the energy coils drop at regular intervals. A correctly executed strategy will allow you to move in such a way that the players hardly ever have to be standing in a flaming grate.

 

Pro Tip #3, the adds don't do a lot of damage. Often times the tank will AOE taunt them to the middle to reduce stress on the healer.

 

Just these three things above, executed properly, will reduce healing from "OMGWTFBBQ" to "We Did It!"

Edited by Khevar
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If you're a healer

 

A lot of healers also don't realize that you can cleanse said incinerate DoT. Even if the tank misses the interrupt, you're going to do a *lot* better just cleansing the DoT rather than trying to heal through it, considering how hard it hits.

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A lot of healers also don't realize that you can cleanse said incinerate DoT. Even if the tank misses the interrupt, you're going to do a *lot* better just cleansing the DoT rather than trying to heal through it, considering how hard it hits.

Yeppers. I remember one time healing HM LI and I cleansed missed incinerate off the tank. After the fight, he said, "No healer has ever done that for me before"

 

!

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No, the game should drop what is appropriate for the intended gear level that the content was designed for. The content was *designed* such that it can be completed by a group in Tionese if executed exactly as intended. The fact that most people *can't* execute the content exactly as intended (interrupting asap, killing adds asap, not standing in bad stuff, blowing CDs to survive burst damage phases) and have to overgear it because they've got poor execution has no bearing upon what the drops should be.

 

So the content is Tier 2, the bosses are all on the Tier 2 level, why shouldn't it drop better gear?

 

If only very few can do it with Tionese, then that means it should not, the game is for most of the people, not a few. Some people can do OPS boss with 4, does that mean those OPS should be 4 men FP? No. In WOW people can do Onyxia with blue gears, does that mean it should not drop T2? No.

 

The difficulty of HM LI is completely separate from the gear requirements.

 

Not at all, the difficulty with Tionese and Columi and BH are not on the same level. Sav-Rak is much much easier with a Rakata or higher level healer, not to say Lorrick, with good gear he would go phase 2 before the 3rd kolto tank. Even Columi could bring him to the 5th, not to say Tionese.

 

 

It requires a reasonably skilled *player* behind the keyboard, not just a keyboard smasher with a well geared character.

 

I don't think the majority are keyboard smasher, even if they are, the drop should balance for them since they are the ones who are giving Bioware most of the profit.

 

 

Tweaking the gear rewards won't make people more likely to do it (most people will *still* wipe continually when they're first learning it while the people that already know it will still just laugh their way through), and it would only screw up the existing progression that's *already* been heavily compressed by the addition and prevalence of BH comms and is getting compressed even more with 1.6 providing full Tionese to every 50 immediately.

 

Yes it will, since they get good after 1 boss rather than need to beat all 3 to get something useful.

Edited by Slowpokeking
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A lot of healers also don't realize that you can cleanse said incinerate DoT. Even if the tank misses the interrupt, you're going to do a *lot* better just cleansing the DoT rather than trying to heal through it, considering how hard it hits.

 

With Tionese gear, the healer need to do a lot of things such as

 

Get away from adds

 

Move from growing bubbles

 

Run away toward lava

 

It's not like they could just stand there and watch the tank all the way, and that's what made LR-5 difficult.

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With Tionese gear, the healer need to do a lot of things such as

 

Get away from adds

Recommended solution: AOE taunt from tank

 

Move from growing bubbles

Recommended solution: Follow a set pattern and move the same positions as you move around the room.

 

Run away toward lava

Recommended solution: Find places as you move around where the lava doesn't appear and stand in them as you move around. This is primarly dependent upon following a set pattern as above.

 

It's not like they could just stand there and watch the tank all the way, and that's what made LR-5 difficult.

This is 100% correct. There are more things happening then standing in one place and watching the tank.

One of the more interesting things about LR-5, is that it requires the group of 4 to be in coordination.

 

If the group is uncoordinated, it results in wipes.

 

Some of the solutions I've mentioned above result in less damage being taken by the group, helping the group survive.

 

...

 

I don't think the majority are keyboard smasher, even if they are, the drop should balance for them since they are the ones who are giving Bioware most of the profit.

 

...

I do understand your viewpoint, this is just where we differ.

 

The Tier 1 flashpoints and Tier 1 operations should be tuned to the majority. The Tier 2 flashpoints and Tier 2 operations should be tuned to the skilled players. This is just my opinion after all, but being that it is mine, I tend to like it. :)

 

The Tier 2 stuff can still be conquered by the majority, it just takes overgearing.

 

OR, the average player joins group of like-minded people to master end-game content. That is a common solution in mmos, after all.

 

OR OR, the average player decides "I want to be a better player", and reads strategies on how to improve their playstyle, gets advice from other players, etc.

Edited by Khevar
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One of the more interesting things about LR-5, is that it requires the group of 4 to be in coordination.

 

If the group is uncoordinated, it results in wipes.

 

Some of the solutions I've mentioned above result in less damage being taken by the group, helping the group survive.

 

I'm not saying it's impossible to avoid, just the healer and dps has to take care of a lot of stuff, so the healer might not be able to cleanse it right after.

 

I do understand your viewpoint, this is just where we differ.

 

The Tier 1 flashpoints and Tier 1 operations should be tuned to the majority. The Tier 2 flashpoints and Tier 2 operations should be tuned to the skilled players. This is just my opinion after all, but being that it is mine, I tend to like it. :)

 

The Tier 2 stuff can still be conquered by the majority, it just takes overgearing.

 

OR, the average player joins group of like-minded people to master end-game content. That is a common solution in mmos, after all.

 

OR OR, the average player decides "I want to be a better player", and reads strategies on how to improve their playstyle, gets advice from other players, etc.

 

No, Tier 2 FP are just a higher level of Tier 1, and do it with columi, which are Tier 1's drops is not overgearing.

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From what I experienced.

 

LR-5 is the least gear relied boss of the 3, but with better gear still allow people to make more mistakes and have a shorter fight.

 

Sav-Rak relies on healer unless others can avoid all the avoidable damage, Lorrick is DPS.

 

So as long as people know the boss mechanic, Rakata or higher Tier groups can smash it through unless they make some huge mistake such as get smashed by Sav-Rak, not turn Lorrick away from DPS/healer. Columi Groups have challenge but they can make a few small mistakes, take some avoidable damage and still get it done. Tionese has to do almost everything right otherwise-GG.

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From what I experienced.

 

LR-5 is the least gear relied boss of the 3, but with better gear still allow people to make more mistakes and have a shorter fight.

 

Sav-Rak relies on healer unless others can avoid all the avoidable damage, Lorrick is DPS.

 

So as long as people know the boss mechanic, Rakata or higher Tier groups can smash it through unless they make some huge mistake such as get smashed by Sav-Rak, not turn Lorrick away from DPS/healer. Columi Groups have challenge but they can make a few small mistakes, take some avoidable damage and still get it done. Tionese has to do almost everything right otherwise-GG.

I agree with everything you've stated here 100%.

...

 

No, Tier 2 FP are just a higher level of Tier 1, and do it with columi, which are Tier 1's drops is not overgearing.

Perhaps this is where our opinion differs. Prior to Lost Island being introduced in 1.2, many players found the T1 HM FPs extremely easy and were asking for harder flashpoints. I have pugged (on 5 different level 50s) several hundred T1 flashpoints. Of these, the vast majority of the players I ran into could tackle all of this content.

 

This includes brand new players as well. There were many times I was with groups that said "I've never done this flashpoint before" and simple explanations in chat sufficed to tackle just about everything.

 

There were also groups that failed miserably. But in almost every case this was due to players not listening to advice, or making egregious mistakes (Guardian tank in Shien form, a healer only doing dps, nobody running out of Vokk's circles, etc). But this was (for me anyway) a minority.

 

There are few I've ever pugged with that found T1 flashpoints challenging.

 

Enter T2. Lost Island was created and added after the complaints of players bored with T1 flashpoints and finding no challenge. It's more than just a higher than T1. It's a significant increase in difficulty.

 

Because I've taken players who cannot finish HM LI, brought them into vent and turned them into a player who can (with no new gear), I keep insisting that it is a mechanics issue, not a gear issue. And I believe that the majority can learn these mechanics issues.

 

I wish this majority would reach for the solutions to becoming better, rather than reaching for solutions that don't require them to.

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No, Tier 2 FP are just a higher level of Tier 1.

 

Sorry, but I'm really going to have to disagree here. Tier 2 FPs are a SEPERATE level than Tier 1.

 

We can debate whether it should drop more than 1 piece of Rakata all you want. But that it should be considered a seperate Tier than HM Taral V, Maestrom Prison and D7 isn't debatable. It's a seperate Tier.

 

Now maybe it should drop 2 pieces of Rakata instead of 1, but if they changed it to drop more Rakata I'd expect them to un-nerf the bosses.

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I don't think it should drop any more than 1, but that 1 should have more variety, to give people more incentive to run it more than once per week.

 

Leave the Rakata only on Lorrick during a HM run, but have it randomized between pieces and class types.

 

Having it only drop the chest piece, and knowing that 9 times out of 10, it's going to be what you already got last week when you ran it, is meh.

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So what? Rakata is no big deal now, and its implants/earpieces/relics can be obtained with daily com. Only SI/JC could not get their MH with strip out offhand weapon's mods.

 

And you get none of these(beside the pet) unless you beat Lorrick, but the 3 bosses share the same difficulty. Which means you get none of these after the hard work against LR-5 and Sav-Rak.

 

Ok, you are clearly saying it is no big deal, so we naturally come to the conclusion,

 

Why do you want a change of gear where the ends is described by yourself as "no big deal"

 

You are starting to contradict yourself, after all you are wrong and it is being shoved up your face, keep being in denial.

 

Also I do not how retarded it is to kill 2 bosses and leave the 3rd unkilled. Every FP in this game revolves around additional rewards when completely cleared, if you choose not to do that then naturally you won't get the best loot offered by the FP, and you may as well move into other MMO's as this system has been in place in Tier 1 FP'S as well.

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Ok, you are clearly saying it is no big deal, so we naturally come to the conclusion,

 

Why do you want a change of gear where the ends is described by yourself as "no big deal"

 

You are starting to contradict yourself, after all you are wrong and it is being shoved up your face, keep being in denial.

 

Also I do not how retarded it is to kill 2 bosses and leave the 3rd unkilled. Every FP in this game revolves around additional rewards when completely cleared, if you choose not to do that then naturally you won't get the best loot offered by the FP, and you may as well move into other MMO's as this system has been in place in Tier 1 FP'S as well.

 

It's not a top Tier, not anymore, but it is still useful to players with Columi.

 

Some people couldn't kill Lorrick, either they wipe too many times or could not do Lorrick due to tank/dps issue. Or they beat LR-5 through hard try but the healer could not handle Sav-Rak. Then they wipe but if the bosses drop some Rakata level stuff they still get something useful for their hard work against LR-5/Sav Rak. And like Tier 1 HM, previous bosses should drop something useful to the majority who can do it(Tionese), especially since the 3 bosses are not skippable.

Edited by Slowpokeking
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  • 2 weeks later...
I personally think that Columi/Rakata gear should be ops-exclusive. Columi is too easily obtained from Hard Mode flashpoints, making Story Mode operations practically useless. If anything, they should take out the Columi loot from all the other HM flashpoints and leave Lost Island the way it is. This would give some value back to the now useless Tionese gear and would give people a reason to do story mode operations (besides for weekly Black Hole Commendations) rather than farming HM flashpoints for Columi and going straight for the HM operations.

 

i agree way to easy to get columi gear.

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It's not a top Tier, not anymore, but it is still useful to players with Columi.

 

Some people couldn't kill Lorrick, either they wipe too many times or could not do Lorrick due to tank/dps issue. Or they beat LR-5 through hard try but the healer could not handle Sav-Rak. Then they wipe but if the bosses drop some Rakata level stuff they still get something useful for their hard work against LR-5/Sav Rak. And like Tier 1 HM, previous bosses should drop something useful to the majority who can do it(Tionese), especially since the 3 bosses are not skippable.

 

Ok but leaving the FP early is also their choice, whether through frustration or lack of more time. I mean it's not Bioware's fault if you guys decide you don't want to have more tries on bosses anymore, it's not Bioware's fault that the bosses wiped the floor with you. This is like demanding the Dread Guard Headpiece drop from Colonel Vorgath, the boss before him. All bosses reward differently -- to be entitled to that loot you need to be killing the bosses.

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