I'm sure by then the playing field will be leveled out. A few Imperial-class Star Destroyers and Venators would give Xizor the edge in capital ship firepower, then combine that with the Black Market tech (notable Mass Drivers, but Xizor's devious mind could upgrade them with other tech).

I feel bad about this, but I've just thought of an awesome(ish ) scenario. In the opening stages of the battle, Revan invades and takes over (stealthily) various tech factories such as the IG-86 factory and MandalMotors. Under these new guises he supplies Xizor with the tech and floods the black market, but its all rigged. Weapons explode when fired, droids turn on there owners, starships malfunction etc etc. whats most important here is the IGs, they'll all be rigged to turn on Xizor. So once Xizor starts buying them they infiltrate his powerbase, track him down, and assassinate him - all the while foiling his own assassination attempts on Revan.

P.S. No Aurbere, feel free to do a VS thread (I'd actually encourage it, been a long time since I can properly get into a good debate) I have other things planned... company secrets I'm afraid

The arguments for Xizor's fleet are beginning to get rather farcical. Even if Kuat builds a few capitol ships for him, it's going to take a very long time before he has enough capitol ships to even hope to match Revan's armadas in open battler. As it's been stated, Revan can bottle up that shipyard in short order, long before Xizor has built an entire Navy.

On top of this, once he's bought the ships... who will crew Xizor's fleet? He doesn't have the personnel or officers to man capitol ships. While it's plausible he could gather up a few capable crews, certainly not enough to wage all out war against Revan's fleets.

As for the black market tech, of course he'll be gathering it up and trying to use it, but it's not going to magically tip the tides in his favor when the raw military power of Revan's forces is overwhelming their defences at every point.

Also, the argument that Xizor's intel networks could magically permit him to make Revan use bad strategies, or blunder into traps, is fairly absurd. The purpose of an intelligence network is to gather information. Xizor would find out from his spies that Revan was gunning for him, and probably which bases were about to be hit. From there, what would he do? Run? Abandon those bases?

Every time Xizor flees from Revan, ducks and hides, he loses face with the rest of Black Sun. Where they abandon their strongholds and warehouses, other criminals will move in and take over. Revan isn't fighting the entire underworld, just Xizor, and Black Sun to the extent that it supports him. Pretty soon, things are going to start looking very bleak for him, and his lieutenants (greedy criminals, who are pretty devious) will start looking for safer alternatives to conflict.

I foresee an endgame with Xizor fortified in his hidden Mustafar base, issuing orders to his Vigos by holocommunications. He's fairly safe from assassins because he's hidden, but he's losing touch with his organization because only a select few are allowed direct contact with him. While he's out of the galactic arena, Revan is tearing around crushing every Black Sun base he finds, slaughtering anyone who helps Xizor, and locking down the shipyards of the galaxy to prevent Xizor from building or purchases any large military vessels. Meanwhile, his troops keep recruiting and training more troopers and officers, his fleets grow at his shipyards, and Czerka pumps a steady stream of weapons and supplies over to him.

Sure, pirates will harass and attack some convoys, but most of Revan's transports will be well guarded by escorts, and the pirates will seek easier prey rather than die in one-sided space battles. As for mass drivers, if Xizor puts them on his ships, why wouldn't Revan? They're hardly difficult to design, just that they were experimental weapons not commonly in use. The first time Xizor uses one in combat, it's likely Revan will start putting them onto warships as well. The same goes for the IG-86's, if he doesn't just capture the factory and use them for himself, Revan (the designer of HK-47, who was pretty much the original mass-murdering assassin droid) would probably produce HK-50's en masse and unleash them to infiltrate and destroy Black Sun operations and black markets.

The "game" being played here is not what Aurbere thinks it is. The shadow war only works if both players are in the shadows. In this case, Revan can fight confidently in the open, while Xizor cannot. This game is far more direct and violent, one that Xizor is not equipped to fight. The strengths of Black Sun lie in being able to blackmail police and governments, manipulate senators, customs officials, and strong arm the other criminal syndicates out of their way. They make money, and use it to grease the wheels of government in their favor. However, they cannot challenge a military power without taking considerable losses. It is not in their nature to wage war, but rather to stand aside and let events unfold, selling their services to both sides.

I'm not sure that will level the playing field very much at all. I mean Revan's ships are powerful in there own right, and superior numbers can overwhelm those sort of odds. And the problem with ugrading them with tech is that stuff is unlikely to be illegal, and I doubt ship upgrades are sold on the black market, that's the sort of stuff he's going to be sourcing from factories and the like, which Revan will be destroying and taking over.

 

I feel bad about this, but I've just thought of an awesome(ish ) scenario. In the opening stages of the battle, Revan invades and takes over (stealthily) various tech factories such as the IG-86 factory and MandalMotors. Under these new guises he supplies Xizor with the tech and floods the black market, but its all rigged. Weapons explode when fired, droids turn on there owners, starships malfunction etc etc. whats most important here is the IGs, they'll all be rigged to turn on Xizor. So once Xizor starts buying them they infiltrate his powerbase, track him down, and assassinate him - all the while foiling his own assassination attempts on Revan.

 

P.S. No Aurbere, feel free to do a VS thread (I'd actually encourage it, been a long time since I can properly get into a good debate) I have other things planned... company secrets I'm afraid

I don't know if that scenario would work. Xizor's intel network would alert him to such things (I believe, I'm not the person to answer that question as my knowledge of Black Sun is limited). I think I'll leave the debate here. I'm sure Warren will be able to handle the rest.

I'm giddy with anticipation for your future endeavors.

The "game" being played here is not what Aurbere thinks it is. The shadow war only works if both players are in the shadows. In this case, Revan can fight confidently in the open, while Xizor cannot. This game is far more direct and violent, one that Xizor is not equipped to fight. The strengths of Black Sun lie in being able to blackmail police and governments, manipulate senators, customs officials, and strong arm the other criminal syndicates out of their way. They make money, and use it to grease the wheels of government in their favor. However, they cannot challenge a military power without taking considerable losses. It is not in their nature to wage war, but rather to stand aside and let events unfold, selling their services to both sides.

I'm not going to respond to everything (because you don't have all of the facts).

A shadow game works in favor of the one in the shadows. Shouldn't Darth Sidious be a reminder of that?

Revan will be out in the open while the Black Sun is hidden. They have secret bases hidden across the galaxy, not to mention the ones hidden in plain sight on planets like Corellia or Anaxes. Xizor's bases aren't easy to find.

And stop underestimating the Black Sun forces. Seriously. They have Venators, they can crew capital ships. They have access to Black Market technology. And they have the advantage of being invisible. Plus Xizor has bottomless pockets.

You underestimate the advantages of being in the shadows. You underestimate the resources that Xizor has.

I said I was done before, but when you get called out... Anyway, now I'm done. You can call it now, Beni. Unless others have something to say.

I'm not going to respond to everything (because you don't have all of the facts).

 

A shadow game works in favor of the one in the shadows. Shouldn't Darth Sidious be a reminder of that?

 

Revan will be out in the open while the Black Sun is hidden. They have secret bases hidden across the galaxy, not to mention the ones hidden in plain sight on planets like Corellia or Anaxes. Xizor's bases aren't easy to find.

 

And stop underestimating the Black Sun forces. Seriously. They have Venators, they can crew capital ships. They have access to Black Market technology. And they have the advantage of being invisible. Plus Xizor has bottomless pockets.

 

You underestimate the advantages of being in the shadows. You underestimate the resources that Xizor has.

 

 

I said I was done before, but when you get called out... Anyway, now I'm done. You can call it now, Beni. Unless others have something to say.

Not to mention, Revan is used to fighting a full scale war not a shadow war, so really its a disadvantage for him and an advantage for Xizor.

Not to mention, Revan is used to fighting a full scale war not a shadow war, so really its a disadvantage for him and an advantage for Xizor.

If anything its Xizor who does not know how to wage a shadow war, as far as I'm aware the only time Xizor actually 'waged war' with anyone was Battle over Coruscant, and he lost.

Nonetheless Xizor is still skilled in operating in the shadows and disappearing etc. he also has hundreds of hideouts, bases, strongholds and safe houses scattered across the galaxy. Revan can feasibly go around blowing them up, but he has to play clever if he want's to corner Xizor.

However Darksaber makes a very good point, if Xizor keeps running and his bases keep getting destroyed - his underlings may lose faith in him and start to see the benefits of switching sides... because lets face it the Black Sun didn't really operate with an iron fist, it was a cut throat world of backstabbing and power grabbing.

EDIT: The thing his Aurbere, this situation is different. Revan isn't a 'war mongerer' like Malak. His cold and cunning, and more than capable of adapting to shadow tactics, after all he did have a legion of shadow assassins.

Not to mention, Revan is used to fighting a full scale war not a shadow war, so really its a disadvantage for him and an advantage for Xizor.

That's something that I have noticed in these past battles. Shadow types () have an advantage over the 'war-monger' types because they don't play that game. They make the 'war-monger' play the shadow game, a game they can't play well. And if the 'war-monger' doesn't conform, they lose because they make it too easy for the shadow types to play to their strengths.

I can't contribute a lot to this debate since I don't know a lot about the Black Sun. But, since everyone likes scenarios with Revan being assassinated, I'd just like to point out that Revan's precognitive abilities work just fine, so he can since impending danger. (It's not necessary to go "Hey, there's droids on the ship that shouldn't be!" to get a feeling through the Force that there was imminent danger.)

 

So, at least in my opinion, it seems reasonable to me to assume that Revan would have some sense that a trap was imminent, or if an assassination attempt was underway. He wouldn't have lived long as a dark lord of the Sith otherwise. (And in case Malak's betrayal is brought up as a counterpoint, having played Kotor it seemed to be implied that it was a spur of the moment decision by Malak to betray Revan, and it was done while Revan was preoccupied by the Jedi. So assassination attempts during battle might be easier, but I wouldn't assume Revan will just walk his fleet into a trap for Xizor's convenience before that.)

 

(if any of this doesn't make sense let me know and I'll try to edit it later, posting at 1:30 AM after doing a bunch of homework, so I cannot guarantee it's 100% coherent)

I have to agree with you on this.

I'm going to also point out to people that a space battle with capital ships duking it out is likely to favor Revan, not Xizor. Revan knows how to command a fleet, a squadron of starfighters, etc. Xizor in all honesty does not know how to do this, Xizor also doesn't have superior military geniuses at his disposal...

If I were someone like Revan, I wouldn't choose the biggest ship in my fleet to be my flagship (simply because everyone would assume it is the flagship), so in theory the IG-86 droids would be attacking the wrong ship. Furthermore even if Revan did use that ship, there were several force powers from that era that we didn't see by the clone wars era.

Stun Droid, Disable Droid, Destroy droid

The idea of the IG-86 droids getting very far with a couple of force wielders present that are skilled in one of those three powers (especially destroy droid), is rather unlikely. It's like having a bunch of people packing portable ion canons, those droids are not getting very far.

Revan would also be sending troops onto ships in Xizor's fleet as well, if Xizor is on one of his ships, then he's going to be contending with assassins boarding his ship, just like Revan would.

The key thing people need to consider is the ships in Revans fleet as someone pointed out, were ridiculously over-armored due to the era's technology limitations. If we equalize the technology, there is still no reason to get rid of the armor, so it could stand to reason that boarding actions might actually be less effective when it comes to trying to storm Revan's ships.

While Xizor would send assassins after Revan, chances are Revan would be dispatching Sith Trained assassins to hunt down Xizor. I think force wielding assassins whom are also fanatics are far more dangerous than a bunch of hired killers that are doing it for the money. A fanatic doesn't care whether they live or die while taking out their target; someone whom is only in it for the money on the other hand will not do anything that would simply get them killed in the process because they won't get paid.

Well not quite, during the Jedi Civil War Revan flooded the Republic with assassins and spies designed to destabalise its infrastructure. He also waged a shadow war against the Jedi, capturing and killing many and turning others to the dark side.

 

If anything its Xizor who does not know how to wage a shadow war, as far as I'm aware the only time Xizor actually 'waged war' with anyone was Battle over Coruscant, and he lost.

 

Nonetheless Xizor is still skilled in operating in the shadows and disappearing etc. he also has hundreds of hideouts, bases, strongholds and safe houses scattered across the galaxy. Revan can feasibly go around blowing them up, but he has to play clever if he want's to corner Xizor.

 

However Darksaber makes a very good point, if Xizor keeps running and his bases keep getting destroyed - his underlings may lose faith in him and start to see the benefits of switching sides... because lets face it the Black Sun didn't really operate with an iron fist, it was a cut throat world of backstabbing and power grabbing.

 

EDIT: The thing his Aurbere, this situation is different. Revan isn't a 'war mongerer' like Malak. His cold and cunning, and more than capable of adapting to shadow tactics, after all he did have a legion of shadow assassins.

Right but he didn't engage in a full shadow war, it was mostly just a full scale war. Sure he sent assassins and the like, but he still was doing actual battles. Though Xizor knows how to operate in a shadow war, I mean he had a plan all laid out to kill Luke and would have succeeded if it weren't for Vader coming in at the moment.

But anyway, stopping here.

Well not quite, during the Jedi Civil War Revan flooded the Republic with assassins and spies designed to destabalise its infrastructure. He also waged a shadow war against the Jedi, capturing and killing many and turning others to the dark side.

 

If anything its Xizor who does not know how to wage a shadow war, as far as I'm aware the only time Xizor actually 'waged war' with anyone was Battle over Coruscant, and he lost.

The thing about that is the Black Sun isn't a galactic government. It hides in the shadows. The Republic isn't like the Black Sun.

Nonetheless Xizor is still skilled in operating in the shadows and disappearing etc. he also has hundreds of hideouts, bases, strongholds and safe houses scattered across the galaxy. Revan can feasibly go around blowing them up, but he has to play clever if he want's to corner Xizor.

 

However Darksaber makes a very good point, if Xizor keeps running and his bases keep getting destroyed - his underlings may lose faith in him and start to see the benefits of switching sides... because lets face it the Black Sun didn't really operate with an iron fist, it was a cut throat world of backstabbing and power grabbing.

 

EDIT: The thing his Aurbere, this situation is different. Revan isn't a 'war mongerer' like Malak. His cold and cunning, and more than capable of adapting to shadow tactics, after all he did have a legion of shadow assassins.

These bases aren't easy to find. If they were, the Republic would have wiped them out long before Xizor came along. They hide in the shadows. They aren't out in the open.

Isn't betraying the Black Sun basically a death sentence?

By 'war-monger' I don't mean "MOAR WAR! NOW!!!!!!" I mean someone built for waging full scale wars. While Revan does have a shadow tactic, it was built to go after a visible enemy. The Black Sun is invisible (mostly).

Personally, I think the best strategy for Revan is to send the assassins out right away. Don't go out and attack the Black Sun directly, just send assassins after Xizor. This may not work if Xizor decides to pick up and leave Coruscant. But even if he doesn't, how likely is it for an assassination attempt to work? (Serious question for those that know the Black Sun better than I do)

Anyway, I'm gonna stop here.

The thing about that is the Black Sun isn't a galactic government. It hides in the shadows. The Republic isn't like the Black Sun.

 

 

 

These bases aren't easy to find. If they were, the Republic would have wiped them out long before Xizor came along. They hide in the shadows. They aren't out in the open.

 

Isn't betraying the Black Sun basically a death sentence?

 

By 'war-monger' I don't mean "MOAR WAR! NOW!!!!!!" I mean someone built for waging full scale wars. While Revan does have a shadow tactic, it was built to go after a visible enemy. The Black Sun is invisible (mostly).

 

Personally, I think the best strategy for Revan is to send the assassins out right away. Don't go out and attack the Black Sun directly, just send assassins after Xizor. This may not work if Xizor decides to pick up and leave Coruscant. But even if he doesn't, how likely is it for an assassination attempt to work? (Serious question for those that know the Black Sun better than I do)

 

Anyway, I'm gonna stop here.

Depends, Xizor survived an assassination attempt before and killed the assassin.

Xizor walks in a luxury hall while a man, Hoff, makes an assassination attempt against him; Xizor kills him single-handedly. The event is watched by Palpatine and Vader, who suspects that Palpatine orchestrated the attempt, only to test Xizor.

Noting that Hoff was also skilled in H2H combat.

So it isn't like Xizor can't handle himself, however it all really depends on how the assassination is planned out though I don't see Xizor not being well prepared due to the prior event.

Right but he didn't engage in a full shadow war, it was mostly just a full scale war. Sure he sent assassins and the like, but he still was doing actual battles. Though Xizor knows how to operate in a shadow war, I mean he had a plan all laid out to kill Luke and would have succeeded if it weren't for Vader coming in at the moment.

 

But anyway, stopping here.

After losing his palace and his fleet suffering heavy losses at the hands of two freighters and 12 X-Wings...

I don't think that bodes well against someone that would have an entire fleet at his disposal.

But even if he doesn't, how likely is it for an assassination attempt to work? (Serious question for those that know the Black Sun better than I do)

If I'm not mistaken Darth Maul successfully infiltrated a Black Sun base more than once, and had important (maybe even leading) members assassinated more than once. Other Force sensitive individuals might be capable of the same.

I think people are also underestimating the morale issues (ha, as if they'd have "moral issues") the Black Sun will face, that were brought up earlier but left without efficient counter argument. In fact a lot of points in Revan's favour were left without detailed responses from Xizor sympathizers. This could be because such things were countered early in the thread, however, as haven't read it's entirety.

If I'm not mistaken Darth Maul successfully infiltrated a Black Sun base more than once, and had important (maybe even leading) members assassinated more than once. Other Force sensitive individuals might be capable of the same.

 

I think people are also underestimating the moral issues the Black Sun will face, that were brought up earlier but left without efficient counter argument. In fact a lot of points in Revan's favour were left without detailed responses from Xizor sympathizers. This could be because such things were countered early in the thread, however, as haven't read it's entirety.

Theres a distinct difference here though with Maul, Maul was crafted into being a weapon, pure and simple an attack dog if you will. Not sure the Dark Jedi under Revan's command, would be trained to that extent otherwise why wouldn't they try to kill Revan themselves?...This isn't to say that they wouldn't do damage just not to the extent of Maul's doing.

Ok now I am really done here, and will wait for the results.

Theres a distinct difference here though with Maul, Maul was crafted into being a weapon, pure and simple an attack dog if you will. Not sure the Dark Jedi under Revan's command, would be trained to that extent otherwise why wouldn't they try to kill Revan themselves?...This isn't to say that they wouldn't do damage just not to the extent of Maul's doing.

 

Ok now I am really done here, and will wait for the results.

The assassin that tried to kill Xizor was an emotionally distraught individual, not a Sith-trained Force Sensitive...

Alright, I'm debated out, which is bad if this is called soon and we're on to the finals. I'm sorry if I missed some arguments. Some of the recent Revan arguments have been:

a. already been debated earlier in the thread

b. exaggerated and/or underestimate many key factors

c. one-sided

d. passive-aggressive (for example, calling debaters out)

But.

I'm almost positive that with all things considered, Xizor can still win this.

How does Revan find Vigos? Well every time Revan invades a Black Sun base, he's going to get more and more intel on their whereabouts and the locations of other bases, as well as the location of Xizor.

Does anyone else find this to be circular reasoning? "How does Reven find the bases? He captures Vigos. How does Reven capture the Vigos? He attacks the bases." Or at least it seems that way to me. I'm being serious as well. It may just be me, I don't know.

OK, just to summarize death scenarios - in case anyone wants to raise some counter arguments:

Revan: Xizor provides false information as to his whereabouts (some sort of isolated space station) and that it is heavily guarded. Revan decides to deal with Xizor personally to ensure no room for failure. However its all a trap, a large fleet converges on Revan's forces and IG-86 assassin droids infiltrate Revan's ship or Xizor has his fleet concentrate maximum firepower on Revan's flagship - either way it its destroyed and him with it.

Problems:

• Revan may not take the bait, he is cold and calculating and not one to fall into traps easily.
  
• Xizor's fleet may not be enough to overwhelm Revan's forces, allowing Revan to escape (after destroying the gravity well generator) - this is possible given the fact that Revan may well have crippled Xizor's powerbase, and given that Revan and his underlings are far more tactically superior to Xizor's.
  
• The IG-86 droids may fail to assassinate Revan, his ability in precognition and the heavily guarded nature of his flaghship (with droids designed to tackle boarding parties) may be enough to either facilitate Revan's escape or defeat the attackers.
  
• Xizor has no way of knowing which ship is Revan's, all Interdictor's looked the same and Revan wasn't known to have commanded a Centurion at any point.
  

Xizor: Revan attacks and takes over a the IG-86 factory on Holowan and supplies Xizor with hacked droids (perhaps a 'new' model to ensure Xizor buys them) these droids flood Xizor's powerbase and locate the Prince then have Revan move his forces in to destroy him, undermining any attempts to escape.

or

Revan wages all out war on Xizor's powerbase, laying waste/capturing anything he can get his hands on, including Xizor's Palace on Coruscant. This has a detrimental effect on morale with Xizor's Vigos no longer liking the prospect of war with Revan. Revan approaches these Vigos and offers them money/power whatever if they usurp their leader. The Vigos, with Revan's help, have Xizor assassinated.

Problems:

• Xizor has an extensive intelligence network at his disposal which he could likely use to monitor the status of his suppliers, and the loyalty of his Vigos, alerting him to either one of Revan's schemes.
  
• Xizor has survived assassination attempts before and could evade both attacks successfully, after which success would decrease dramatically.
  
• The Vigos may be hesitant to betray there leader, knowing the repercussions will be harsh if they fail.
  
• Xizor could ensure his location was not even known to his Vigos, so even if they did turn, they would be useless in helping Revan track down Xizor.
  

P.S. Oh and Aurbere the Vigo scenario is a possible one, the Black Sun was actually pretty cut throat. Xizor for example battled with another for the position of Vigo, all the while Xizor was planning to usurp the Black Sun leader and become leader himself. Meanwhile the Black Sun leader was scheming against Xizor because he saw him as a potential threat. Pretty cut throat, lots of scheming and backstabbing. After all how do you think the Black Sun Leader is chosen?

Does anyone else find this to be circular reasoning? "How does Reven find the bases? He captures Vigos. How does Reven capture the Vigos? He attacks the bases." Or at least it seems that way to me. I'm being serious as well. It may just be me, I don't know.

Xizor can't possibly hide the location of all of his bases. Central bases in particular will likely also be rather well known, in experiences playing the TOR series major crime bases after often known by the locals. I've inflitrated my fair share. And if we recall TCW, Maul has no trouble finding the Black Sun base on Mustafar, nor did he have trouble finding the Black Sun Fortress on Ralltiir or tracking down the Vigos Morn and Darnada. Remember that Black Sun isn't completely hidden, else they could never do buisness. They have 'shopfronts' if you like and well a fortresses designed to act as symbols of authority to the people they controlled (like Jabba's Palace on Tatooine) and that's where Revan would start.

Also if Revan moved fast enough, (he has forces in the Core Worlds) he could invade Xizor's Palace on Coruscant before the Prince has time to erase data on other bases, which could be a very powerful resource.

So that's the starting point, then the cycle begins.

Beni I really am just done, I am actually more curious about what else you have after Kaggath.

Same here on both accounts.

Beni: I think you should hold off on the finals for a bit. I'm pretty much debated out.

Same here on both accounts.

 

Beni: I think you should hold off on the finals for a bit. I'm pretty much debated out.

OK I think with exhausted every avenue of argument. So I'm going to call this soon, if you've got any final statements to make, make them.

"To contend with Xizor, is to lose." As my final statement.

OK I think with exhausted every avenue of argument. So I'm going to call this soon, if you've got any final statements to make, make them.

The only last statement I can make is for everyone to not underestimate the size and scope of the Black Sun, and the devious mind of its leader.

I'll be ready for the finals (and the possible second Kaggath series?)