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Lightning or Madness?


XenonParsec's Avatar


XenonParsec
01.03.2012 , 06:51 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Daellia View Post
You realize that Wrath procs about 2-3 times as often, and buffs Chain Lightning by 20%, right? Madness definitely has the advantage when it comes to instacast Chain Lightnings. Force Lightning also hits 2-3 times as hard as Lightning Strike, and has the mana efficiency built in (Force Lightning regens more force than it uses). Lightning is definitely not the PvP tree, Madness is definitely competitive, and arguably slightly superior in group PvP due to the massive AoE Deathfield + Wrath CLs can provide.
I find madness extremely weak in PvP because of the things you need most in PvP: front-loaded burst damage, defense and cc. Lightning is superior in all three areas.

Burst: insta-chain forks for double crit. Can't get faster or more frontloaded. If the proc gods frown on me, I affliction/TB and auto crit. Force Lightning is far better used for slowing and finishing a runner/low hp, the fact that you have to stand and channel a spell that's super lightningy so everyone knows where you are is not superior, nor does it hit "harder" (especially with the fact that LS can fork and double crit).

Defense and cc: 20% moar bubble, 3 second blind when bubble breaks, and 3 second stun from Overload. All before level 40, otherwise you wait until then. I guess you could lower your electrocute CD for 10 seconds in the meantime.

In regards to force efficiency, my first 5 points are in electric induction and reserves, with force effusion and subversion later on, you should never run out of force, ever, using Lightning assuming you're correctly using LS in your rotation. Like it matters, you will never go OOF in PvP because you'll likely die before then, especially with a 600 force pool and every cast being for less force AND regeneration with subversion up.

Lightning is PvP love.

Daellia's Avatar


Daellia
01.03.2012 , 07:27 PM | #22
Quote:
Burst: insta-chain forks for double crit. Can't get faster or more frontloaded. If the proc gods frown on me, I affliction/TB and auto crit.
If the stars align, you'll do amazing burst, yes, but the likelihood of a fork double crit is very low (slightly under 3% at 30% crit chance). Not really something to rely on, especially considering that Madness's CL just flat hits 20% harder by default, while you're looking at a 30% chance of 30% additional damage.

Quote:
nor does it hit "harder" (especially with the fact that LS can fork and double crit).
Except it does. Force Lightning does roughly 50% more DPS than Lightning Strike. That definitely qualifies as "hitting harder".

Quote:
Defense and cc: 20% moar bubble, 3 second blind when bubble breaks, and 3 second stun from Overload. All before level 40, otherwise you wait until then. I guess you could lower your electrocute CD for 10 seconds in the meantime.
The 20% more bubble is included in the Madness build, and the Overload snare is easily included as well. In addition, we get 10 seconds off Electrocute and an instant cast Whirlwind that stuns when broken. Honestly, I think defense is pretty much a wash between the two.

Quote:
In regards to force efficiency, my first 5 points are in electric induction and reserves, with force effusion and subversion later on, you should never run out of force, ever, using Lightning assuming you're correctly using LS in your rotation. Like it matters, you will never go OOF in PvP because you'll likely die before then, especially with a 600 force pool and every cast being for less force AND regeneration with subversion up.
I agree, running out of force in PvP basically never happens. However, that doesn't change the fact that Madness literally can't run out. Force Lightning is resource-positive, Lightning Strike just isn't resource-negative enough to really matter. If you find yourself in that rare long and drawn-out fight, eventually you'll be running on fumes, while Madness is still channeling away at 95% force. As above, a wash.

Basically, Madness holds it's own against Lightning just fine. I'm not saying Madness is superior, I'm just contesting your claim that Lightning is the end-all be-all of PvP for Sorcs. Lightning is potent, but Madness definitely has its advantages too, and overall it really comes down to a wash.
Even Angels must kill from time to time... ~Kaedis

KillyPCP's Avatar


KillyPCP
01.03.2012 , 07:51 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by XenonParsec View Post
I find madness extremely weak in PvP because of the things you need most in PvP: front-loaded burst damage, defense and cc. Lightning is superior in all three areas.


Lightning is PvP love.
All I have to say is lolwut?

Who are you outbursting in PVP? Can't be snipers, or operatives. Their openers do twice as much damage as you'll ever do. 4100 non crit ambush go go go.

Can't be bounty hunters either between heatseeking/tracer missile/rail shots they'll smash you before you get your second cast off.

Assassins have it a bit rougher, but if they are in position to backstab they will repeatedly hit you with 3-4k+ attacks.

So while you are turreting lightning strike and praying for a insta cast proc, they are smashing you or your teammates face in.

And when you finally get your lol burst off, you've what? Hit a single target for 5k over 3 casts?

Ashnazg's Avatar


Ashnazg
01.03.2012 , 08:11 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by KillyPCP View Post
All I have to say is lolwut?

Who are you outbursting in PVP? Can't be snipers, or operatives. Their openers do twice as much damage as you'll ever do. 4100 non crit ambush go go go.

Can't be bounty hunters either between heatseeking/tracer missile/rail shots they'll smash you before you get your second cast off.

Assassins have it a bit rougher, but if they are in position to backstab they will repeatedly hit you with 3-4k+ attacks.

So while you are turreting lightning strike and praying for a insta cast proc, they are smashing you or your teammates face in.

And when you finally get your lol burst off, you've what? Hit a single target for 5k over 3 casts?
He clearly doesn't play as madness. In another thread he said sorcs don't get instant whirlwind.

zYNNN's Avatar


zYNNN
01.03.2012 , 08:12 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by XenonParsec View Post
Burst: insta-chain forks for double crit. Can't get faster or more frontloaded. If the proc gods frown on me, I affliction/TB and auto crit. Force Lightning is far better used for slowing and finishing a runner/low hp, the fact that you have to stand and channel a spell that's super lightningy so everyone knows where you are is not superior, nor does it hit "harder" (especially with the fact that LS can fork and double crit).

Defense and cc: 20% moar bubble, 3 second blind when bubble breaks, and 3 second stun from Overload. All before level 40, otherwise you wait until then. I guess you could lower your electrocute CD for 10 seconds in the meantime.

In regards to force efficiency, my first 5 points are in electric induction and reserves, with force effusion and subversion later on, you should never run out of force, ever, using Lightning assuming you're correctly using LS in your rotation. Like it matters, you will never go OOF in PvP because you'll likely die before then, especially with a 600 force pool and every cast being for less force AND regeneration with subversion up.
Lightning is PvP love.
In madness i have 3 stuns, an insta CC, and way more mobility than you. If you are really unlucky and you meet me, when i'm in the mood to tunnel kids rather than play for the "W", and i'm in hybrid specc, I have 2 stuns, one insta CC and a baby Nuke every 8-10 secs.

This is all while you'r casually standing there trying to turret your Lightning Strikes.

And honestly Subversion isn't that great, considering it only pays for 80% of Lightning Strikes total cost. If you don't believe me, just force yourself to go OOF, and try to replenish your Force by just spamming Lightning Strikes, and let me knowhow that works our for you. Myself well, I could spam FL and be back and 600 Force in under a 1.30mins.

And we get your 20% extra bubble, and what makes you think I would be in range for your defense and CC's wouldn't even come into play.

XenonParsec's Avatar


XenonParsec
01.03.2012 , 08:29 PM | #26
Wow, I didn't realize I would offend people with my ludicrous claims, but I forget mmo forums are mostly populated by indignant neckbeards that think pvp is srs bzns, and not real people.

There's no burst in madness, and that's why madness specs never top the boards, unless they're 50 in champ gear then it's so-so damage, over 9000 kills with 2 deathblows. That spec crumbles in just about any 1-on-1 situation, cant do dmg fast enough, and your main spell is a channel that telegraphs your position to everyone unless they're blind, everything else is moar dots easily healed through or shrugged off. Whirlwind, utterly useless in pvp. It's like a ghetto electrocute, worthless to put points into. So yeah, your spreadsheet says all this math, but your damage doesnt happen fast enough. Great for boss mobs, not so much for the heavy trooper laughing at your slow damage, or the op that vanishes away, or the other sorc that bubbles through it.

Feel free to play how you like, I was giving input to the OP why I feel Lightning is better. Hope that doesn't make anyone mad.

hikotai's Avatar


hikotai
01.03.2012 , 08:59 PM | #27
...To put it simply, and more respectfully than the others have, let me summarize the answer to the original question like thus:

It depends on your playstyle. Period. Neither is explicitly better or worse; just that they are each better at certain tasks. It depends on which combat niche you're trying to fill, and how you make your attempt at filling it. The only correct way to choose your spec is to study up on the strengths/weaknesses of each, and decide which suits you better. Re-spec'ing is fairly cheap the first few times you do it, so experimentation is your friend when uncertainty rears its ugly head. But for the most part, study up, and go with your gut. If you play your spec skillfully, you can be successful at either.

The two trees are quite different in terms of the playstyles they're intended for, and that's why the opinions on the issue are so polarized to one or the other. People tend to be biased towards their own playstyle, and often forget that other styles do exist (and do work).

TL;DR version: Know your own role. Know your own skill level. Make your own call. Re-spec if it just doesn't work out.

Lucielo's Avatar


Lucielo
01.04.2012 , 12:02 AM | #28
Thanks to those guys for responding about 13.28 > 3.31.7. Will give that a go tonight I do prefer to play madness just wanted to ensure I had something viable before respeccing!

Still not entirely convinced want to see more number crunching :P but I guess this will have to do!
Phanto - Sorcerer
Freedon Nadd
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DJIzzy's Avatar


DJIzzy
01.04.2012 , 12:18 AM | #29
Frankly speaking, we're not a "burst" class, so I feel an argument about burst/consistent damage is a moot point. We're utility more than anything. I'm level 35 and still have yet to be *able* to get the pvp badge for a single attack doing over 2.5k, while easily cranking out over 75k throughout the match. Now this was both in Corruption and Lightning specs. I'm hitting heal crits over 4k and I can't pop 2k on the damage spells, so there's the "burst" for ya.

On the other hand, regardless of spec I come near the top, if not THE top, in every fight, for kills, heals, and damage done. I don't mind being near the top of multiple charts as opposed to being called "burst"; it's not damage per cast that wins you a match or anything other than one badge that I can do without

zYNNN's Avatar


zYNNN
01.04.2012 , 04:48 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by XenonParsec View Post
Wow, I didn't realize I would offend people with my ludicrous claims, but I forget mmo forums are mostly populated by indignant neckbeards that think pvp is srs bzns, and not real people.

There's no burst in madness, and that's why madness specs never top the boards, unless they're 50 in champ gear then it's so-so damage, over 9000 kills with 2 deathblows. That spec crumbles in just about any 1-on-1 situation, cant do dmg fast enough, and your main spell is a channel that telegraphs your position to everyone unless they're blind, everything else is moar dots easily healed through or shrugged off. Whirlwind, utterly useless in pvp. It's like a ghetto electrocute, worthless to put points into. So yeah, your spreadsheet says all this math, but your damage doesnt happen fast enough. Great for boss mobs, not so much for the heavy trooper laughing at your slow damage, or the op that vanishes away, or the other sorc that bubbles through it.

Feel free to play how you like, I was giving input to the OP why I feel Lightning is better. Hope that doesn't make anyone mad.
Resorting to having to insult people, because your "claims" got proven wrong is just silly tbh, nobody has even tried to insult you, just debated how wrong you were about lightning being the better specc.

Your argument for for our main spell being, channeled and showing everyone where we are is pointless, because electrocute and Lightning Strike both shoot Lightning from the caster to the opponent, just like Force Lightning. Unless the player has downs they will know exactly where you are.

And about madness not topping boards, sorry but if you honestly think this is true, then you are bad.

http://i.imgur.com/luQ1x.jpg

Again I emphasize my point, Lightning just isn't Force efficient, even if 3 stacks of Subversion are kept up at all times.

And again, What makes you think Lightning can last longer than a Madness specc'd Sorc against a Heavy trooper, or that an op won't vanish against a Lightning specc'd Sorc, and a bubble can be brought down in seconds by a chain lightning/shock combo at higher lvls where they absorb around 3k damage.

The mobility of madness, is what makes it better than lightning. Just duel a madness specc'd Sorc that knows what he is doing, and let me know if you even manage to get off 1 cast. The fact that you have a two second Thundering Blast cast and a three second Chain Lightning makes it almost impossible to retain viability.

It's obvious the game isn't based around 1v1, but even in 1v1's we are extremely difficult to kill, in 2v2/3v3 we are just unstoppable.

If you have Affliction on the target, you'r 2 snares become useless, because both are broken by damage, and against ranged classes your 2 snares won't even come into play.