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I do not agree with the inclusion of SGRs.


TheBBP

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People seem to fail to understand one basic thing about development.

 

Money is a Finite Resource.

 

It does not matter if there are different teams in charge of divergent facets of development.

 

Any $ allocated to one department for a specific project is $ not allocated to another.

 

The argument that SGRA does not detract from other development cycles is fundamentally wrong.

 

We can debate as to the significance of that allocation and what specifically it detracts from, but you people hiding behind this particular strawman need to give it up.

 

 

The argument that because a small number of players what something, then NO development time should be allocated to it is petty and mean.

 

Is it not fundamentally fairer to say we should have time allocated in proportion to the proportion of people asking for it?

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People seem to fail to understand one basic thing about development.

 

Money is a Finite Resource.

 

It does not matter if there are different teams in charge of divergent facets of development.

 

Any $ allocated to one department for a specific project is $ not allocated to another.

 

The argument that SGRA does not detract from other development cycles is fundamentally wrong.

 

We can debate as to the significance of that allocation and what specifically it detracts from, but you people hiding behind this particular strawman need to give it up.

 

And you are making it seem like the overall budget is like $2,000 and by them taking time to include SGR NPC Flirts, which as stated, is a Small Fraction of the overall Rise of the Hutt Cartel Expansion. You & others who keep pointing it out seem to be implying that by them doing that, that it took $1,999 out of the $2,000 Budget.

 

NOTE = I am not saying that the Budget was $2 Grand or that SGRA's takes $1,999 to create, though I would be shocked by the coincidence if I was actually correct on how much it ended up costing, but I used those two prices as an example of how it seems that those that are saying that SGRA's should have continued to sit on the bloody back burner for another 2 or 3+ years are conveying that them taking the time to add SGRA Flirts which would be an approximate equivalent of 5% of the overall Expansion caused them to spend the majority of the Expansion Budget on just that one Feature.

 

Any $ allocated to one department for a specific project is $ not allocated to another.

 

Oh, you mean like them allocating money to the department that was set up specifically for the Secret Space Project and not allocating any of that money to other departments. Allocating $ to SGRA's will not be the only sole reason that any other project got put onto the Back Burner. Cause if you or anyone else were to say that them adding in the SGR Flirts caused them to not release the SSSP are really wrong and completely exaggerating things.

Edited by Altyrell
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I'm beginning to suspect the real motive of the people speaking in this thread against SGR - no not that one.

 

I suspect they are the kind of people who are not happy with dev time being spent on a feature they have no interest in and are using the old, Argumentum ad populum device to try to delay it.

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It isnt about what laws theyre bound to, I never said that so please dont put words into my mouth.

I was aiming at what the humane/social standard was regarding SGR's in the countries that this game is played in (more specifically the "Western" countries)

So you made it into politics, not me.

I didnt attempt anything, I think I made it quite clear that you consider this as a US issue when this is a worldwide game with players from all over the world.

You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding in which you fail to see how the concept of "humane/social standard" is merely another way of saying socio-political norms, ergo political in nature.

 

So yes, broaching on the political.

 

Even if I agreed that still leaves Juhani. And if you are arguing something like this, is there ever room for SGR's in the EU or even the new movies? Youre saying "It hasnt been done in the passed so it shouldnt happen now" then interspecies relations shouldve never happened either and theyre everywhere

You know, I cannot seem to find the post in which I stated that particular point.

 

Enlighten me, please.

 

Switching back to ToS discussions is fine with me

Sounds good.

 

Out of curiosity, how does one engage in a pro/anti- SGRA discussion in SW:TOR without resorting to social, political, et al concerns?

 

SGRA exists in exactly two places in all of C-Canon.

So while it exists it is also on the far end of rare, insofar as the current canon is concerned.

 

Also, why would spending time and money to put a token SGRA-flirt option into an already limited expansion be a priority?

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I'm beginning to suspect the real motive of the people speaking in this thread against SGR - no not that one.

 

I suspect they are the kind of people who are not happy with dev time being spent on a feature they have no interest in and are using the old, Argumentum ad populum device to try to delay it.

 

I would say you are half correct.

I highly doubt anything is being delayed and considering what Bioware is, the forums could literally be in unison and against SGRA and they would still include it. Also, I doubt most of the forums understand what an Argumentum ad populum is without opening a new browser for google...

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Also, why would spending time and money to put a token SGRA-flirt option into an already limited expansion be a priority?

 

Ok, then why should an equally "token" size feature be more of a priority then SGRA's? But to answer your question, because those that have been waiting for the SGRA's to be added had to wait over 1 year of game time and more then that when the development time gets added. And don't say that Space People had been waiting an equal amount of time because Same Gender Romances and Space Combat are no where near the same thing.

 

Not saying that you would've brought up Space Combat, but I was simply using it as an example.

Edited by Altyrell
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It should not be nor have I ever claimed otherwise.

Items that I have listed in the past that should be given priority over SGRA-content include basic Client Optimization, Known Bug Fixes, PVP-Balance Patches, and the extension of existing individual class storylines. (and if we get really wild, perhaps some attention to Crafting Professions and the RE-issues)

 

Same-Gender Romance Arcs, an expansion of Space Combat, new Mini-Games, New Companions, et al exist in a non-prioritized list of future content that Bioware should get to eventually, but not at the expense of fixing what we have.

 

Quite frankly I think the inclusion of an SGRA flirt option is little more than token gesture of accommodation to this highly vocal and oftentimes aggressive pro-SGRA community. I also find it rather interesting that its mention, and the subsequent controversy it sparked on the forums, just happened to coincide with the complaints over Makeb's cost and other content.

 

But of course, Bioware never times its statements for the purpose of changing the course of debate (DA3 I am looking at you)...;)

Edited by -IceHawk-
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and the extension of existing individual class storylines.

 

Bioware should get to eventually, but not at the expense of fixing what we have.

 

Then you don't want SGRA's to ever be added then if you want them to constantly take the backseat to that. Do I want more Chapters to be added, sure but not at the expense of other features. And since no MMO ever has everything 100% fixed, SGRA's and everything else will end up never getting added.

 

Why force things to take a backseat when they very well can be created AND added along side each other?

Edited by Altyrell
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Uh, this Game is Rated T for TEEN using the ESRB Game Rating, not EC (Early Childhood), E (Everyone) or E10 (Everyone 10+). T for Teen is 13+ so stop with TOR being aimed at "kids" cause this day & age, 13+ already know about sex & stuff. Also, SGRA's WILL NOT INCREASE the Game Rating NOR does it mean it should be. SGRA's can be added without making it "Adult Oriented" any more so then the Romance Arcs that we currently have do.

 

Also, you talk about others supposedly pushing their Agendas, um isn't that exactly what you, yourself, is trying to do?

 

I'm not advocating for something a small majority wants added to a game, so I'm not pushing a agenda.

Edited by Pvtcarnage
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Then you don't want SGRA's to ever be added then if you want them to constantly take the backseat to that. Do I want more Chapters to be added, sure but not at the expense of other features. And since no MMO ever has everything 100% fixed, SGRA's and everything else will end up never getting added.

 

Why force things to take a backseat when they very well can be created AND added along side each other?

 

In short this is your fear, not my argument.

Like Mini-Games and an expansion of Space, SGRA are the concern of a portion of the population.

If you do not get them because primary game content such as PVP and the Bioware 4th Pillar of class story need attention, oh well.

 

I often see the argument in this thread that anti-SGRA posters simply need to "deal with it or leave," because the content is coming.

 

Well, the pro-SGRA people will need to do much the same if all they ever get is a token Flirt Option.

 

As much as threads like this may serve as force multipliers for opinion the reality is that Romance Options are only a make-or-break concern for a minority of the subscription base.

 

We lost a million subscriptions due to a Endgame Content that was not engaging enough, PVP imbalance, and persistent bugs, not because my FemSW cannot romance Vette.

 

I would prefer that additional special-interest group items only show up after Bioware has addressed the principle issues of the game.

 

Romance options are your priority.

Recognize however that to the vast majority of the player base it exists only as a corollary to one third (leveling) of a tripartite focus for this game (Endgame PVE, Endgame PVP, Story Arcs).

 

If we never get to SGRA, SSSP, and Pazaack but in exchange Lag drops, the ability delay disappears, Frame-Rates improve, and I can enter a Warzone without having to run a Bubble-Spec or get Smashed for 7K in my full WH gear I will be fine with that.

 

So would, I would venture a guess, the vast majority of this community.

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That goes both ways, because gun control is a politically charged issue, so should BioWare not add firearms to the game? Oh and there are 2 Gay Mandalorians in the Lore and they were NOT added by BioWare. Also, SGRA's are Story Content, and them adding SGRA's weren't the sole reason for them not including Chapter 4's to the RotHC Expansion. Plus, SGRA's doesn't mean that they won't add Chapter 4+ to the Classes.

 

Those are only really issues in America.

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It is about agenda's, and it's being pushed into everything possible. My problem is when it's pushed at Kid themed media. Put a adult rating in and I'm fine.

 

lol homophobe, you guys need new material. I have gay friends and they can handle conversations without trying that one.

 

Equality is just such a terrible agenda... :rolleyes:

 

Personally, I would prefer it if Bioware stopped introducing politically charged issues into the canon and actually dedicated its Story Content Funding into the extension of individual class stories.

 

It's only politically-charged because you make it so by making it political.

 

People seem to fail to understand one basic thing about development.

 

Money is a Finite Resource.

 

It does not matter if there are different teams in charge of divergent facets of development.

 

Any $ allocated to one department for a specific project is $ not allocated to another.

 

The argument that SGRA does not detract from other development cycles is fundamentally wrong.

 

We can debate as to the significance of that allocation and what specifically it detracts from, but you people hiding behind this particular strawman need to give it up.

And how convenient that all the things YOU like are what should be at the top of the priority queue...

 

Quite frankly, politics should be jettisoned from Star Wars unless we are talking about the balance of power between Borsk and Ackbar or the legitimacy of Thrawn's Shogunate...

Then stop making it political by trying to deny that gay people exist. YOU are politicizing it.

 

I'm beginning to suspect the real motive of the people speaking in this thread against SGR - no not that one.

 

I suspect they are the kind of people who are not happy with dev time being spent on a feature they have no interest in and are using the old, Argumentum ad populum device to try to delay it.

You're more generous than me. I think it's plain old homophobia hiding behind the money argument.

Edited by Caelrie
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It's only politically-charged because you make it so by making it political.

Lovely tautology; I most enjoy the part where it included a reasoned, coherent, and logically consistent argument.

 

And how convenient that all the things YOU like are what should be at the top of the priority queue...

I know. I am a terrible person wishing that Bioware would address issues like Endgame Content, Bugs, Optimization Concerns, et al.

 

I can truly think of no-other posters on these forums who think these are important issues that need to be addressed. That PVP-Forum for instance is filled with satisfied individuals falling over themselves in appreciation of the balance achieved in modern-Warzones....

 

Then stop making it political by trying to deny that gay people exist. YOU are politicizing it.

Yeah. That post in which I denied the existence of gay people and demanded they have never existed and should never be included in Star Wars Canon was uncalled for.

 

Says who? Why is that you repeatedly think you get to speak for everyone?

My apologies.

 

Star Wars: The Old Republic is obviously a battleground for Civil Rights on par with Stonewall!

 

I mean, the moderators and the Forum TOS make that abundantly clear.

 

I think I covered everything.

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Take it to PMs you two.

 

How about we instead jettison the political aspect of the debate altogether?

 

I would think the discussion of content priority, as the original opinion of the poster who started this thread, is actually quite applicable and more on target here.

Edited by -IceHawk-
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How about we instead jettison the political aspect of the debate altogether?

 

I would think the discussion of content priority, as in the original opinion of the poster who started this thread, is actually quite applicable and more on target here.

Then stop calling it a political agenda.

 

The majority has already been catered to 99% of the time in SWTOR. It won't kill us (yes, I'm not gay either) to learn to share.

 

Take it to PMs you two.

Why? It's completely on-topic.

Edited by Caelrie
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Actually, he is right.

 

It is not on-topic and I am done with it.

No, he's not right. The thread is about whether SRGA content should be included or not. That's what we're arguing about. In fact, that's what HIS posts 1 page ago are arguing about too.

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Back on topic folks. There is already a giant thread debating whether or not SGRs belong in the game. This thread is not about that.

A reminder, perhaps.

 

I would target three items as higher priority than SGRA:

 

First, PVP-Balance.

The Rage-Specialization for Juggernaughts and Marauders, the Static-Barrier Backlash Effect for Sorcerers, and the DPS builds for both Sorcerers and Mercenaries need to be addressed.

 

Second, Client Optimization & General Bug Fixes

Whether it be infrequent but highly intense moments of inexplicable lag, ability delays, persistent Flashpoint Bugs, et al, Bioware needs to optimize this thing. 11 FPS next to the GTN is annoying.

 

Third, Endgame PVE Expansion.

I consider Makeb a mini-expansion at best and the abandonment of individual class stories is not something I support. If Bioware is to extend the PVE story it should do so with a real expansion pack.

 

Given an extra, Crafting needs attention.

Between the undercutting of the Cybertech Ship Part market or the Artifice Crystal Market and the annoying state of the Re-system crafters in general need to be resituated as indispensible components of the economy. At this point I literally have no use for any crafter unless I want to skip the BH Com grind for one item.

 

SSSP, SGRA, Mini-Games, even World PVP can be moved higher into priorities after the core gameplay is addressed.

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