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Melee vs range and burst vs sustained do not need to influence DPS spread

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Public Test Server
Melee vs range and burst vs sustained do not need to influence DPS spread

DarthEndonae's Avatar


DarthEndonae
09.22.2019 , 11:08 PM | #1
Right now, the DPS ranking roughly goes: Melee DoT > Melee Burst = Ranged DoT > Ranged Burst. The spread is absolutely massive right now as well, the highest parsing spec, Pyro PT does 2k more damage than the lowest parsing spec, Arsenal Merc. That's a 15% difference in damage output! The result is that many specs rarely get used in nightmare raids because so much damage is just given up and often the reason for this spread to exist doesn't even matter or can be handled without needing such a massive spread.

Melee vs Range Damage Output
The conventional thinking right now is that melee needs to do more than ranged because melee has gaps to close and can potentially have less uptime while ranged can do DPS all the time. At launch, melee movement was far more restricted and only Warriors and PT tanks had the leap. Now, every single melee class now has access to an instant gap closer ability/leap and a movement speed ability or two like a roll. It's very easy to stay close to your target these days and the removal of channeled and casted abilities has made it easier to stick to moving targets. If damage output for the instant gap closers/leaps was increased to match or even slightly surpass the strong filler (Vicious Slash, Flame Burst, etc.) or kept off the GCD like it basically is for Holotraverse and Phantom Stride (these abilities should not provide a DPS increase via utilities though), there wouldn't (and isn't) much of a DPS loss than there is when a ranged DPS needs to move or otherwise has a cast get interrupted. Target swapping capability further blurs this line, some specs like Lightning Sorc have to put Affliction on whenever they switch to a new target and if that new thing isn't staying alive for very long, it's just as harmful to DPS as having to waste a GCD on a leap.

Number of abilities that have 10m range vs 4m also has a massive impact on damage output. PT DPS and Lethality are almost entirely at 10m range and this makes a massive difference in their ability to maintain high uptime, but this is completely ignored in the current spread as those three specs are among the highest parsing in the game likely also because they have the least defensive capabilities (though this will no longer be the case in 6.0, so their DPS should be lowered). Deception is in a similar boat thanks to frequent use of Ball Lightning and Discharge, but that isn't the entire rotation, and Assassin in general is performing the lowest DPS wise.

PvP isn't much of a concern either in my opinion since there's a whole host of things that both enable melee to better stick on their targets and ranged to stop gap closers from happening or otherwise escape melee range. This can easily be rebalanced to accommodate equal DPS, likely meaning that ranged would have less escapes or melee have more ways to stick on the ranged.

Burst vs Sustained
The conventional thinking is that burst is better than sustained because you get your damage out right now as opposed to later, so something that needs to die quickly will die faster you don't lose DPS when something dies and you still have DoTs ticking and it's harder to mitigate in general and are less hurt by frequent periods of downtime. The biggest issue right now is that this distinction isn't being respected in raids, many of the DoT specs will do just fine in phases that require burst. A classic example is an IO merc being able to do the orb on Calphayus because you have 15 seconds which is the same as a single cycle of IO.

Only about half of the classes have a significant distinction between their burst and sustained specs, and yet a lot of room is created in the spread for this distinction. The other specs don't have very much difference and which one to use comes down to preference or smaller differences. On the one hand, this is fine in nightmare raiding because the demands are already high enough that these smaller distinctions can be enough to warrant choosing one over the other without needing the overall damage output to be different. There are ways to further differentiate sustained and burst so their use cases are more separate as they should be so that their distinction makes sense in practice, and many of these traits are present already on at least one of the sustained specs.

Longer duration DoTs and dependency on those DoTs are the first thing that needs to happen. Virulence and Lethality are the major examples where this occurs, though it's also relevant for Pyro with Scorch. With both the agent specs, the DoTs last for 24 seconds (and the extra weakened duration for Virulence) and are required to be active in order for the agent to deal any sort of significant damage. 24 seconds is usually too long for most burst windows so Virulence up being pretty unhelpful in those situations but they still need the DoTs to be active which really isn't helpful if something needs to die quickly. It would probably be better to lean more into this effect for ranged DoT specs since they have longer DoTs inherently.

Stronger execute (sub 30% damage increases) and a small reduction in above 30 damage output will also help to make sustained specs worse in burst situations because that sub 30 damage increase doesn't work very well over shorter timescales but is very good over longer periods of time like burn phases and will even out in standard fights. Hatred is currently functioning like this and while many specs do have very strong execute windows, they aren't quite as extreme as Hatred where it's almost bad above 30%. They could also throw in a gravely injured state for enemies where the execute damage increase could trigger outside of the sub 30 instances so that DoT specs could still be useful in fights where burn phases happen with the boss above 30% like Brontes burn or Kell Dragon 2. For example, Relentless Ordnance on IO would now say "Increases damage dealt by periodic effects by 30% on targets that are below 30% max health or gravely injured" and the debuff that would appear on the boss would say something like "Gravely Injured - Vulnerable to executions". It would be better to lean into this effect for melee DoT specs since they have shorter duration DoTs.

IO
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Madness
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Vengeance
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Pyro
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Annihilation
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Hatred and Engineering
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ThePsyEagle's Avatar


ThePsyEagle
09.23.2019 , 02:00 AM | #2
Just answering a few points you mentioned:
- You pointed out Holotraverse as an advantage, but it is the most unreliable skill which gives you actually a disadvantage 50% of the time or more. Usually I either don't move anywhere and just loose a second or I get ported even further away.
- Lethality range = 10m. Lethalities biggest hit is 4m range and one of your TA gaining skills is 4m as well.

mrphstar's Avatar


mrphstar
09.24.2019 , 04:35 AM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthEndonae View Post
PvP isn't much of a concern either in my opinion since there's a whole host of things that both enable melee to better stick on their targets and ranged to stop gap closers from happening or otherwise escape melee range. This can easily be rebalanced to accommodate equal DPS, likely meaning that ranged would have less escapes or melee have more ways to stick on the ranged.
giving melee more gap closer abilities or reducing the mobility of ranges to compensate your suggested DPS changes in PVP, would ultimatly reverse these changes because this would lead to more uptime for melee and less uptime for range in PVE again.

so whats your point exactly?

when i last checked, the meta already was merc>sniper>any melee.
why would anyone want to give them even more damage.

same goes for DoT vs. Burst.
you cant reduce the gap between DoT and Burst specs because no DoT spec would be viable in PVP anymore (DoT specs are rarely played already anyway).

unfortunaly for the most PVE players, balancing is bound to both PVE and PVP. you didnt take that into account while posting these ideas.

Benirons's Avatar


Benirons
09.24.2019 , 11:59 AM | #4
This dps range needs to exist, although how wide exactly is subject to scrutiny.

There is no sense in having different DPS specs if they all do the same dmg, cause then the optimal one would be to run burst since they dont rely on dots per say.

The only reason IO can kill the orb on caly is because that merc is probably way overgeared in 258s. IO also has a stupid amount of burst with net and supercharge. It should not be possible. Caly in particular is a fight where most dps should be running burst specs because that is what is needed.

And tanking nim caly, i routinely see the affliction add almost get its cast off with 2 dot specs (both agent dot specs).