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Shadow PVP....?

Jeckll's Avatar

01.07.2012 , 07:18 AM | #11
I'm doing very well soloing in Ilum.

In Warzones, I'm with my group and my role is obviously to kill ^^ Further, I migrate the damage on our healer with taunts and slow grenates. I do well at solo defending objectives in stealth as well as taking them (mind maze solo defenders etc.)

In Huttball, i stealth behind enemy lines so my teammates can pass the ball.
Jeckll Cradlesong
Skald (Logres/Midgard) || Rogue (Gorgonnash/Horde)
Witch Elf (Carroburg/Destruction) || Rogue (Trübkopf/Defiant)

JinxOcculte's Avatar

01.07.2012 , 08:02 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Elkingoh View Post
And I know it's not just me as I keep track of other shadows stats in wz's and not to toot my own horn, but I would say I do better then most other shadows 85% of the time in general. Which if I feel almost useless, then how must they feel?
Hmm, if you're just doing 100k-110k in damage as a DPS Infiltration spec, you're likely doing something wrong. Even without PvP gear, I (as a fairly average Shadow tbh) was doing more damage than that when I was put on a bad team or spent much of the match outside of the main action (defending a turret on Alderaan, frequently being the ball carrier in Hutt Ball, etc.). With an ok team (AKA you're not getting focused all the time), a decent (and decently geared) Shadow should be able to put up at least 200k damage.

Quote: Originally Posted by Jesmcalli View Post
3.7k crits...I see Ops/Scoundrels...hell, pretty much everyone else gets crits like those, while with better survivability/healing/etc. Backstab is horribly inefficient, especially given the innate lag and ability delay in WZs right now. I've actually spammed Backstab on a Sorc and he outhealed it, while being interrupted/stunned. It's a one trick pony that more often than not hits for 1100-1200 and now you're out in the open and they're laughing at you.
In regards to 3.7k crits, I suggest you look at everyone's biggest hit after each WZ. I guarantee you that most of the people in the warzone will have a biggest hit lower than that, most likely in the 2k range.

As for "backstab" (Shadow Strike) spamming, this also means you're doing something wrong. You should not be opening with or using Shadow Strike if your Find Weakness has not proc'd. The force usage to damage ratio simply is not worth it. Clairvoyant Strike has a better ratio with the additional benefit of adding +15% damage to project (stacks twice). That, in my opinion, is a much better opener, and will in turn give Find Weakness a chance of proc'ing.

A sorcerer is not that hard to beat in a 1v1 if you have the jump on him. It obviously isn't a piece of cake, either, but we have enough CC and an interrupt with a fairly short cooldown (10s for Infiltration Shadows) to manage the situation. In fact, any 1v1 should be manageable if you get the jump on the person. People engaging you whilst you're out of stealth around 30m or Ops/Scoundrels from stealth, however, is an entirely different story. That will be a much tougher fight to win.

I use Low Slash and Spinning Kick all the time, to set up what, exactly? Our massive burst damage? Sure, if the target is below our level. Equal level and gear though? Not so much.I just feel at a loss, like I should have rolled something else. Ops/Scoundrels do the whole "harassment from stealth" thing much better than we do. We're a poor, non-ranged facsimile of them at the moment.
I'll admit that an Infiltration Shadow isn't as straightforward of a class as it probably appeared when you chose it (I certainly wasn't expecting it to play like it does), but I do find it to be a very powerful class that has good sustained damage, very good burst occasionally (every 1.25-1.5 minutes), and lots of useful CC (low slash, force stun, force wave, force slow, mind maze, etc.). The damage is not as high as an Op/Scoundrel, but we do have more options once a fight is in progress, rather than just coming out of stealth. Just as an Op/Scoundrel can annihilate us coming out of stealth (if you don't force cloak or pop resilience/deflection right off the bat), we too can absolutely destroy them if we get the drop on them.

As for our burst, I am assuming that you're making use of force potency when it is available? Clairvoyant Strike x2 -> Project -> Force Potency (before the projectile hits) -> Force Breach is an incredible source of burst, and in all likelihood your Find Weakness will have proc'd during it, giving you even more damage (with an increased crit chance from Force Synergy). To top it all off, you've got Spinning Strike as the person will likely be below 30%. I can't tell you how many times I've absolutely decimated opponents using this.

Anyways, I'm rambling now, but my point is this: an Infiltration Shadow is very powerful, both in terms of damage and utility in PvP. It is not, however, a backstabbing machine that many Shadows play it as. It also isn't a tank as a Kinetic Shadow is, thus you have to take preventative measures if you don't want to be focus fired in no time (sometimes it just can't be helped). Pay attention to your procs, know when and how to utilize CC, and know when to swallow your pride and Force Cloak on out of there. Don't forget to use your cooldowns either. I know of many Shadows that completely forget about Resilience, Blackout, Deflection, Force Potency, Battle Readiness, etc.

Anyways, enough rambling. Try out another class if you wish, but I guarantee you that you can have success as a Shadow if you stick with it and work to learn the class. I still have a long ways to go, but I know I have significantly improved from what I've learned on the forums.

Amhartan's Avatar

01.07.2012 , 08:44 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by NO_Walking View Post
Our biggest advantage isn't our damage, but our utility. Nobody should pvp alone in a wz, and in a group we really shine. I can remove all debuffs and vanish if it gets too sports, easily get enemies off of friends who are being focused, and bust out some huge single target burst when needed. I can't count how many times I've won a wz for the team cause im the only one assaulting doors or capping turrets. And don't forget stealthing in the endzone for huttball passes. May not be the best alone, but we are invaluable as part of a team.
I strongly agree with this. To the gentleman who said "Who isn't good with a team?" I would like to point out that there is never a time you do not have a team in a warzone. As a class, shadows are awfully useful. Stealth is hardly necessary for us, it is almost exclusively a tool (since we don't have smuggler/Op openers)

As infiltration, your goal isn't to roll in, 4 shot a dude and leave (Though with proper target selection and trinketing, it's not -that- difficult), your role is to harass. Find a healer and stick to them like glue. Our Burst dps is fantastic, yes, but so is our pretty high sustained DPS in between our burst cycles. With enough crit/surge you can keep the pressure on a healer and force them to move (Which, in many cases, means they aren't healing as much) or force them to heal themselves (Which means that remarkably irritating Jugger/Guardian isn't getting heals.)

As KC/Balance you become this ridiculously efficient point defender. The Force in Balance and your pure durability enables you to keep an alderaan point for an exceptionally great amount of time.

People play Shadows because they want options and utility. People play scoundrels because they want to shotgun people in the back. They all but require stealth to be able to burst as hard as they do, I just need a target.
Aim to please... Shoot to kill...

Jesmcalli's Avatar

01.07.2012 , 11:49 AM | #14
Again, thanks for insights everyone. For the record Jinx, I don't spam SS per se, I know it's pretty terrible as far as cost per damage ratio. I was trying it out, and of course it proved that it......was pretty inefficient,ha ha.

kckkryptonite's Avatar

01.07.2012 , 03:36 PM | #15
Pure Infil specs are relative garbage in WZ's since other classes DPS better than you. It's more of a utility spec, but you don't get trophies for objectives; and the hybrid builds are just as useful in that regard. That said, the Upheavil infil spec is probably the least bad.

Maxxacre's Avatar

01.07.2012 , 04:02 PM | #16
The Shadow is what I would consider to be a more advanced class requiring more skill to play effectively. It's not straight forward really. The Shadow's role is not very well defined because it is versatile. You can get in the thick of it and brawl on a pretty sustained level, or you can burst down a critical target and disappear before you get focused, or you can ninja objectives. Either way, it's a really reactive class. You won't always be playing the same way... it depends on the situation you're in. Sometimes you'll need to move around the map and other times you'll be better off stealth defending an objective. It's basically a matter of learning what to do and when to do it so you can best serve your team a win.

I feel like I dominate on my Shadow... and I play really differently depending on my situation. If I try to lock myself in to doing one particular thing during a warzone, I will likely fail. I have to always have the mentality that I am going to see what the team needs and then adjust my play accordingly. I love it when I'm grouped up with people for PvP and they always ask me at the beginning of the round "which way you going?" My answer is always the same... "that depends on where everyone else goes!"

If you're the type of player that starts a round of Voidstar thinking "I'm going to the left door" before the round even starts and you don't know where everyone else is... then you're not the kind of player who will have a lot of success as a Shadow.

To improve, you simply need to adopt the mentality that you're versatile and that you must adapt to the situation you're in. That's really the key to success with this class.
"Paper is fine, nerf rock!" --Scissors

Maxxacre's Avatar

01.07.2012 , 04:03 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by kckkryptonite View Post
Pure Infil specs are relative garbage in WZ's since other classes DPS better than you. It's more of a utility spec, but you don't get trophies for objectives; and the hybrid builds are just as useful in that regard. That said, the Upheavil infil spec is probably the least bad.
Pure Infiltration specs in warzones are only as garbage as the player behind the keyboard makes it.
"Paper is fine, nerf rock!" --Scissors

kckkryptonite's Avatar

01.07.2012 , 05:01 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Maxxacre View Post
Pure Infiltration specs in warzones are only as garbage as the player behind the keyboard makes it.
Cop-out/denial answer, surely I must be bad if I don't like the spec.

AriasImmortal's Avatar

01.07.2012 , 05:14 PM | #19
Upheaval Infil has insane burst potential, especially if you use Project's delayed animation to your advantage. If you open on someone (use your preferred opener, shadow strike/spinning kick/force slow/clairvoyant strike), clairvoyant strikex2, and then potency>project>force breach, the Project and Force Breach will hit at nearly the exact same time, plus if you proc upheaval that's even more burst.

With my surge Relic and power stim up I've seen Project/Breach crits of 5.5k each, add an upheaval proc/crit to that and you've got an INSANE amount of damage. Not to mention that shadow strike with the proc up will crit for 4k+ easily, and spinning strike even higher.

At 50 with PvP gear our damage is just as good, and our burst is more reliable than Op/Scoundrel as it doesn't require stealth at all. Also, in 1v1 situations don't be afraid to use low slash to create some breathing room, regen force, or even cast a Mind Crush.

Make sure you're using both your taunts constantly in group PvP as well, 30% damage reduction to all your teammates even for 6 seconds is amazing.

DF-Syn's Avatar

01.07.2012 , 05:27 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by NO_Walking View Post
Stealth capping objectives
Use your knockdown
Backstab gives me 3.7k crits
clairvoyant strike UPS your Dps a ton
12 second slow

Sorry, but I pwn in pvp. 1v1 I can kill mostly anyone my level. I can stealth around and cause havoc. I can CC and knockdown from stealth. I can protect others, I can get some insanely high single Target DPS.

Shadows are great in pvp.
I am the same way... I stream me pvping and you can talk to my viewers, i don't lose... I can 1 v 1 just about any class and i do INSANE bursts and high crits.... I love my shadow pvp and the only other class i would roll would be a Sith Marauder, but once again I love my shadow. Then again, I'm full champion PVP gear.For those of you who feel otherwise, its the player not the class. Feel free to watch me anytime, here's my link