Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Do snipers or Commandos have better dps right now lads?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Commando / Mercenary
Do snipers or Commandos have better dps right now lads?

Rahizm's Avatar


Rahizm
08.11.2013 , 07:35 PM | #21
You can't if you want to double dip in the alacrity talents (first transponder and the passive talent in assault tree)

Also, quoting Odawgg:

Quote:
Topping the dps charts is great and all, but if the raid wipes, and you could've help prevent it, whatís the point?
Which points towards any healing ability the commando has. Which is utility, because those abilities can make a difference and do make a difference in any fight if used. Utility is not just a scrambling field. It's anything that can either protect or heal the raid.

Healers can only cleanse one person at a time. Being able to cleanse yourself (and others) IS utility. It takes workload off the healers who can then focus on someone else / the rest of the raid. A good DPS isn't just about putting out numbers GOOD raids rather see people using whatever they have to survive while losing 50dps for a healing ability from a DPS than dying because of what could've been prevented.

A good example of this is on the Writhing Horror HM/NIM. Healers can focus on healing tanks while you can run to a safe spot and cleanse yourself (read: not near flowers)

Recharge cells can be used as an ammo replenisher, but if you're good at maintaining ammo then it can (also) be used as an Offensive cooldown (of sorts). Recharge Cells will allow you to burst DPS like a madman (i.e. spamming grav round till Curtain of Fire pops up). Burst after your opener, throw in a Plasma Grenade, Recharge Cells, Hammer shot, continue your rotation.
Nae'palm - Gunnery Commando | R‚h - Sentinel Deeps | Rev'movak - Shadow Tank | Sutchadik - Dirty Kicker
<Phobos> @ The Harbinger

Gyronamics's Avatar


Gyronamics
08.11.2013 , 08:10 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Rahizm View Post
You can't if you want to double dip in the alacrity talents (first transponder and the passive talent in assault tree)
There's that can't again.

There, just moved one point.

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#80...ffordokcrsZs.3
Hotwired

Niman, Tomb of Freedon Nadd, The Red Eclipse, Darth Malgus

2011 - The Immortals, The Lumberjacks, Nano, Not Good Enough, Disciples of Babylon, Salt Miners - 2018

ArchangelLBC's Avatar


ArchangelLBC
08.12.2013 , 12:45 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Rahizm View Post
Don't think you're playing 36/3/7 on your sniper then, since that spec requires energy management and currently parses higher than DF, hybrid and sab (without the wallbangs). Mess the rotation up, and you'll find yourself casting Flurry of Bolts.

Commandos bring utility, actually.

- Kolto Bomb. Because it might save your raid, even if it's not a HoT in DPS spec.
- Advanced Medical Probe. Gunnery commando's can save any player who's near death if they happen to have 5 Charged Barrels up. It makes that probe an instant cast, thus another heal utility.
- Medical Probe. Slow cast but it's still a heal. Which is, raid utility.
- Battle rez. Snipers don't have this.
- Knockback, stunts takes care of adds and of course, both are needed on Styrak NIM. it's considered utility.
- 1 mezz, you know, to cc a target (non-boss).

And as for offensive abilities

- Tech Override (gunnery). Making 2 abilities instant cast, can even be used in combination with 1 medical probe to provide raid utility.
- Reserve Powercell. Because it makes anything cost no ammo (read: Plasma Grenade or for AP/Hybrids Incendiary Round).
- Recharge Cells. You can deplete your ammo, cast this, throw in a Plasma Grenade, a hammer shot, and you've done some DPS while regaining full ammo.

As for defensive, Commando's only have Reactive Shield. If you're specced into Gunnery, you can get a nice Absorb chance which makes it a bit easier for healers, thus brings a bit utility. Or the Diversion absorb talent, it dumps aggro (tanks will love you) and absorbs some damage.

As for MM Snipers / SS Slingers, they'll have to watch their energy because of:

- Sab Charge. Using this is actually a DPS increase, but it has to be done while having high energy
- XS Flyby. Having low energy and then casting this will make you use either Cool Head or spamming Flurry of Bolts.
- Vital Shot. Eats energy, but having full durations and refreshing it does a lot for DPS.

Only a few (or maybe even 1 player) managed to use the above abilities and never used Flurry of Bolts in their rotation.

I do agree with the fact that Commandos need an ammo regen boost or reduced cost of some abilities. I handle my ammo well now thanks to some guides here on the forum, but there's a large group that doesn't read anything said on this forum, they just head to Noxxic and read up rotations there and end up with a depleted ammo bar and just spamming hammer shot 24/7 till they're able to cast something again.

I also agree with the fact that Snipers have pretty much everything better when it comes to offensive and defensive cooldowns.

But on topic, Snipers/Slingers do the most dps in this game. It isn't odd either, devs play them.
Eh, while 36/3/7 isn't nearly as braindead on energy management as 36/5/5, compared to gunnery commando it's still pretty hilariously easy. It's no coincidence that Flyby and Burst Volley both have 45s cooldowns (Sharpshooter exclusive for that Flyby cooldown obviously). NO ONE is doing good DPS as a commando in an extended setting without using a LOT of Hammer Shots. Sabo Charge is the only real thing that should be messing with your energy, and you can out DPS commandos pretty handily without it.

Mess your rotation up and that's why you have Cool Head/Adrenaline Probe. I don't think it's ever not been up when I needed it, whereas if I'm doing things right on commando I'm eying that cooldown for recharge cells very closely.

Outside of Kolto Bomb, I don't consider any of our heals to be true raid utility. Kolto Bomb costs a GCD, is usable on the move, hits multiple people, love it. My guild ended up commando heavy and you better believe I tell people to throw those out when they can. The other heals? Get MUCH less usage, and I honestly HATE when AMP takes up Charged Barrel stacks. 9 times out of 10, if you're actually making judicious use of any heals other than kolto bomb, sometimes even that, you're gonna wipe anyway.

Battle Rez is meh, I like to have it, but there's lots of battle rezzes around most of the time. Concussion Round IS nice, but mostly for trash packs, though I suppose it's pretty useful if you just wanna focus your DPS on Oolok. Snipers not only have a knockback, but a ranged root, which we don't have, and almost anything you can stun you can flashbang, and from full range instead of 10m.

Tech Override does nothing to increase our damage, and even the argument that it lets us cast on the move isn't very compelling given the cooldown. You're actually gonna try to tell me that MM Sniper isn't leagues ahead of Gunnery commando as a turret spec and cite TO? What are you smoking? Worst offensive cooldown in the game.

Reserve Powercell is nice but the cooldown is WAY too long for the benefit provides.

Honestly do you know what the best raid utility a commando brings? An in rotation spammable armor break. I know I always love seeing a gunnery commando when I'm on my slinger. Shatter Shot is a distraction.

Quote: Originally Posted by Zunayson View Post
A lethality operative does more damage. It's a fact lol. They're just squishier, have offheals, and are way more mobile.
You're late to the party. See the walls of text at the top of the page detailing all the fights where sniper is better period. Mobility realistically matters in two fights.

Quote: Originally Posted by Gyronamics View Post
When you say you can't do you mean you have fixations on trivial talents which you won't let go to get both Decoy and Reflexive Shield.

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#800McZrffordokcrsZf.3

I'd agree with you, but I'll take my 90 second TO and 45 second Concussion Round (just for Oolok, Dash, and Kephess) over my 1 hit resilienced Diversion. It may be a choice between mediocre talents, but one is definitely more mediocre than the other.
In update 2.9 the game will simply uninstall itself for you.

-Wnd

CommanderKeeva's Avatar


CommanderKeeva
08.12.2013 , 01:59 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Gyronamics View Post
When you say you can't do you mean you have fixations on trivial talents which you won't let go to get both Decoy and Reflexive Shield.

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#800McZrffordokcrsZf.3
I wouldn't call Overclock trivial. It gives you burst in burn phases, so it does more to increase your DPS than Decoy. But other than that, Cell Capacitor, Field Training, Target Lock and Weapon Calibrations all affect your DPS in some way. The only talent I would ever consider swapping Decoy with is Reflexive Shield, but I wouldn't do that either because the Energy Redoubt effect gives you essentially a passive defensive cooldown.

The problem with Decoy, for me that is, is that it's linked to the aggro dump mechanic. If you anticipate a large incoming Tech or Force attack and use it prematurely, you won't have anything left if you happen to pull aggro afterwards for whatever reason. I like to keep my aggro dump in reserve for times when I actually need it.

If Decoy was a separate skill, kind of like how Dodge works for Smugglers, I would be totally okay with it. But the only situation I would ever consider bringing decoy is PvP, where aggro is not an issue. But even then, I wouldn't give up Overclock and what little burst we have or the reduced cooldown on Reactive Shield.

TL;DR: Decoy is probably a bad design like Frontline Medic. Separate Decoy's effect from Diversion and make it a separate skill with a duration of 3 seconds, which can be increased to 4,5/6 seconds if you put points in the Decoy talent. Then you wouldn't have to worry about prematurely dropping aggro.
BEING A GOOD SOLDIER COMES DOWN TO ONE THING, ONE SINGLE QUESTION:
WHAT ARE YOU PREPARED TO SACRIFICE?

AMightyKnight's Avatar


AMightyKnight
08.12.2013 , 02:10 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Rahizm View Post
You can't if you want to double dip in the alacrity talents (first transponder and the passive talent in assault tree)
Also, quoting Odawgg:
Quote:
Topping the dps charts is great and all, but if the raid wipes, and you could've help prevent it, whatís the point?
Which points towards any healing ability the commando has. Which is utility, because those abilities can make a difference and do make a difference in any fight if used. Utility is not just a scrambling field. It's anything that can either protect or heal the raid. [Ö]
If it is on you have to save the raid your Tanks and Healers did something wrong. It is not your first job as a Commando DD to help out with healing. Your healers should be able to do that themselves without much support, including the NM encounters. As DD its your job to do damage and Commando or not, you are expected to pull your weight, meaning some 20 percent of total damage.
The thing is: We are doing badly compared to Slingers even when we focus entirely on DPS and use everything we have to maximize damage. And doing anything else on top of that makes the gap even worse! So, how can I use my ďgreat utilityĒ as Commando when I cannot do equal damage on a max dps setting? This just doesnít add up. If we are supposed to use utilities we need to be able to get the necessary damage in despite of using them. This is impossible, we barely do enough damage compared to Slingers and Sentinels.
Just ask yourself, what do you want? A Commando with 2.5k on Dread Guards or a Slinger with 2.8k? Iíd take the Slinger in a heartbeat even if that means that my healers have to heal alone without the help of a Commando doing 2.4k DPS / 100 HPS.
Anyway, healing in a boss fight, especially emergency healing is a great way to screw up not only your rotation but your energy levels. We can throw in the odd Advanced Medical probe and Kolto Bomb if we have to but anything beyond that costs us dearly. Cleansing and stuff, while great, at least costs us one global cooldown. Worse if we have to stop what we are doing, interrupting a cast to cleanse someone.
And recharge cells, if you generally donít use it as an offensive cooldown you shouldnít play NM IMO. But as others have said, almost every class has something like this.
Quote: Originally Posted by Gyronamics View Post
There's that can't again.

There, just moved one point.

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#80...ffordokcrsZs.3
Nice. With 2 points for Tech Override gone your dps will be even worse. You want the burst TO can provide.
Benaiah Abihail @T3M4 Ahdino Abishai
Gladio vivere, fusil perire!
KotFE 10/2015: RIP Endgame /unsubbed 02/16

CommanderKeeva's Avatar


CommanderKeeva
08.12.2013 , 02:16 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Rahizm View Post
Recharge cells can be used as an ammo replenisher, but if you're good at maintaining ammo then it can (also) be used as an Offensive cooldown (of sorts). Recharge Cells will allow you to burst DPS like a madman (i.e. spamming grav round till Curtain of Fire pops up). Burst after your opener, throw in a Plasma Grenade, Recharge Cells, Hammer shot, continue your rotation.
Maybe I'm bad at maintaining my Ammo, but any extended fight in my experience is a real Ammo nightmare. If there aren't short breaks in the fight, then it's an uphill battle as you watch your resources slowly dwindle. And when I run out, I use Recharge Cells and try to survive somehow for 2 minutes again until it comes off cooldown. It's not so bad if you can use Hammer Shots regularly to get back to 4 ticks whenever you go below it, but some of the Hard and Nightmare fights are really tight on DPS and you can't really afford to fire lots of Hammer Shots. Mind you this mostly happens due to the unreliable CoF proc, when you have to fire Grav Round after Grav Round to no effect.

The main difference between Adrenaline Probe and Recharge Cells is that Adrenaline Probe isn't really built into your rotations. You just keep it at hand in case you need it for whatever reason. But in any extended fight, you cannot afford not to use Recharge Cells. (Well, I cannot anyway, like I said, maybe I'm just bad at managing my Ammo.)
BEING A GOOD SOLDIER COMES DOWN TO ONE THING, ONE SINGLE QUESTION:
WHAT ARE YOU PREPARED TO SACRIFICE?

CommanderKeeva's Avatar


CommanderKeeva
08.12.2013 , 02:23 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by AMightyKnight View Post
And recharge cells, if you generally donít use it as an offensive cooldown you shouldnít play NM IMO. But as others have said, almost every class has something like this.
I very much agree with everything you said inb4 but I don't get this part. Using Recharge Cells is a great way to bring additional burst but it feels like a huge waste to me when you're already full on Ammo. Managing energy, especially on Nightmare is difficult enough without throwing Recharge Cells away.

I love burst but is it worth it when it means that at some point you will likely run out of Ammo and left nothing but Hammer Shots?
BEING A GOOD SOLDIER COMES DOWN TO ONE THING, ONE SINGLE QUESTION:
WHAT ARE YOU PREPARED TO SACRIFICE?

AMightyKnight's Avatar


AMightyKnight
08.12.2013 , 04:03 AM | #28
You shouldnt run out of ammo. You only run out of ammo if you make one or two mistakes in your rotation. If you cant keep your rotation straight (especially with the 63 set bonus which is totally adequate for NM content) you shouldnít do Nightmare Ops.
I always use Recharge Cells on cooldown (just like Reserve Powercell and TSO) or save it if a mandatory burst phase is coming up. I donít think itís a waste to be honest. Using Recharge Cells means max dps without any Hammershots in the rotation and thatís a definite dps gain. If I have it coming up, I burn thorugh my ammo. I often using Mortar Volley and Plasma Grenade as well since itís a challenge to burn your ammo with the old setbonusÖ

With regards to ammo management in general, I understand where youre coming from. The new set bonus is hard to play over longer periods of time without any dps stops.
Two things:
First, consider going back to the old set bonus if you are not drowning in 75 set items. Yes, you will lose some mainstat but the old set bonus still works very well compared to the new one when it comes to dps. To my knowledge even odwagg is still using the old bonus and he once said that he would prefer the 63 set to a full 75 set. I play both versions with two Commandos (both min max 72) and I do noticeably more dps with the old bonus. If you are struggling with your rotation, using the old bonus will help your dps output.
Second, you need to develop a feeling for your energy level to never drop below the magic 60 energy into negative regeneration. Its too late if you use Hammershots once you have allready screwed up your rotation. You need to use HS in order to avoid negative regeneration. Mercenarys have an advantage there since they have a percentage display of their heat. We donít, so you need to get good at guessing it or use a different solution to indicate critical energy levels. Wont go into this further here though.
Benaiah Abihail @T3M4 Ahdino Abishai
Gladio vivere, fusil perire!
KotFE 10/2015: RIP Endgame /unsubbed 02/16

CommanderKeeva's Avatar


CommanderKeeva
08.12.2013 , 05:25 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by AMightyKnight View Post
You shouldnt run out of ammo. You only run out of ammo if you make one or two mistakes in your rotation. If you cant keep your rotation straight (especially with the 63 set bonus which is totally adequate for NM content) you shouldnít do Nightmare Ops.
I always use Recharge Cells on cooldown (just like Reserve Powercell and TSO) or save it if a mandatory burst phase is coming up. I donít think itís a waste to be honest. Using Recharge Cells means max dps without any Hammershots in the rotation and thatís a definite dps gain. If I have it coming up, I burn thorugh my ammo. I often using Mortar Volley and Plasma Grenade as well since itís a challenge to burn your ammo with the old setbonusÖ

With regards to ammo management in general, I understand where youre coming from. The new set bonus is hard to play over longer periods of time without any dps stops.
Two things:
First, consider going back to the old set bonus if you are not drowning in 75 set items. Yes, you will lose some mainstat but the old set bonus still works very well compared to the new one when it comes to dps. To my knowledge even odwagg is still using the old bonus and he once said that he would prefer the 63 set to a full 75 set. I play both versions with two Commandos (both min max 72) and I do noticeably more dps with the old bonus. If you are struggling with your rotation, using the old bonus will help your dps output.
Second, you need to develop a feeling for your energy level to never drop below the magic 60 energy into negative regeneration. Its too late if you use Hammershots once you have allready screwed up your rotation. You need to use HS in order to avoid negative regeneration. Mercenarys have an advantage there since they have a percentage display of their heat. We donít, so you need to get good at guessing it or use a different solution to indicate critical energy levels. Wont go into this further here though.
Interesting, thanks for the advice. Now that you mention it, I remember that I rarely had energy issues with the old set bonus and free HiBs. I think I vendored the old armorings, though, unforunately. Is there still a way to obtain the old 63 set bonus?
BEING A GOOD SOLDIER COMES DOWN TO ONE THING, ONE SINGLE QUESTION:
WHAT ARE YOU PREPARED TO SACRIFICE?

AMightyKnight's Avatar


AMightyKnight
08.12.2013 , 05:30 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by CommanderKeeva View Post
Interesting, thanks for the advice. Now that you mention it, I remember that I rarely had energy issues with the old set bonus and free HiBs. I think I vendored the old armorings, though, unforunately. Is there still a way to obtain the old 63 set bonus?
The Classic Commodenation Vendor still has them. You should get the neccessary tokens in Denova. Nightmare i believe, maybe even hard mode. Never tried it since 2.0.
Benaiah Abihail @T3M4 Ahdino Abishai
Gladio vivere, fusil perire!
KotFE 10/2015: RIP Endgame /unsubbed 02/16