wadecounty Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 Why can nobody seem to grasp this? Yes, you can get through your average hard mode without following a kill order, but guess what, it just means more stress on your tanks/healers.... you know, the ones who had to enter group finder for your queue to actually pop? And then those tanks/healers get tired of having to work extra hard to babysit braindead DPS, and stop queueing altogether, or only queue with guildies. So please please please, respect the kill order. Its literally no extra work for a DPS, and it makes life far easier on your tanks and healers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beattle Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 Here here!!!!! Biggest pet peave of mine in any heriocs/fp's/ops. I think most dps should start off as healer or tank to really know how much of a difference it is to kill adds first. My tank once got called worse tank in game, because, dps decided to attack the gold i started on, which left the 3 nons, 2 silvers attacking the healer. I left gold, took agro off the healer, both dps died, healer and I lived, we got that fight. Hence, i'm worse tank in game. Some people don't want to learn, or, listen to other people that may know better. I leave groups now after fast wipes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardim Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 I grasp and understand the concept, but I am admittedly guilty of this. I usually kill strongs first because I can wipe then out in about 3 seconds flat. Elites and above though, I ignore until the weaker enemies are taken care of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSpectre Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 i am a Maruader and ive had other "DPS" character do what you're speaking of. have to admit, its a huge pain because we need to re-adjust out targets because of it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Darkstar Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 While I do understand this isn't it also a rule to attack the same target as the tank? So should the tank not be making sure they have these mobs targetted and only throw the occasional AoE or taunt at the gold instead of sitting on it's feet? You can't complain about DPS ignoring targets if you are doing the same thing. Also maybe take it upon yourself to mark a kill order and see if that encourages people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raekor Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 While I do understand this isn't it also a rule to attack the same target as the tank? So should the tank not be making sure they have these mobs targetted and only throw the occasional AoE or taunt at the gold instead of sitting on it's feet? You can't complain about DPS ignoring targets if you are doing the same thing. Also maybe take it upon yourself to mark a kill order and see if that encourages people. Other MMO's maybe, which is probably where the problems arise. In this game's HM's, take out the elite and maybe one strong you have pretty much a standard pack that one DPS would usually solo with a companion during normal game play. They are also usually too spread out for a tanks aoe to hit all. Not to mention normals are usually 2 or 3 hit, so not worth a tanks time hitting them. Following weakest to strongest in current flashpoints will result in the least amount of group damage taken. Does change a bit in some operations, but I had assumed we weren't talking about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DataBeaver Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 I do try to kill the weakest ones first, but sometimes that creates a problem where everyone targets the same mob and it dies so fast that time is wasted in aborted ability activations and re-targeting. In that situation I usually switch to a stronger one for a while. And sometimes I just don't notice all the weaker enemies, or one of them is behind an obstacle and I can't shoot it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kregora Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 A "weak to strong" order is fine in general. But it always depends on group and encounter composition. My expectation as a healer is, that the "most annoying" mobs are dealt first with. Like healers, guardians, stunnerm buffer, and mobs with large aoe's. Either use crowd control abilities on them (taunt, stun mezmerize), or kill them first. In my opinion Kaon under Siege and Lost Island have several good examples why "weak to strong" isn't always the best idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wadecounty Posted January 4, 2013 Author Share Posted January 4, 2013 A "weak to strong" order is fine in general. But it always depends on group and encounter composition. My expectation as a healer is, that the "most annoying" mobs are dealt first with. Like healers, guardians, stunnerm buffer, and mobs with large aoe's. Either use crowd control abilities on them (taunt, stun mezmerize), or kill them first. In my opinion Kaon under Siege and Lost Island have several good examples why "weak to strong" isn't always the best idea. Oh I'll agree on those, but in those cases you often need to explain about special NPC's beforehand, if they've never been there before. And if they have, then they got it, its fine. What I'm more referring to is your standard, average trash pack in a flashpoint... 1 elite, 2 strongs and 4 normals/weaks. As a tank, I will usually lead with some aoe, tap everything once or twice, then hold the elite/strongs... but when the DPS tunnel vision the elite or strong, and let the weak stuff go for the healer, that's when everything becomes more work than it should be. Now I have to burn taunts, or the healer has to heal more than they should be healing, all because DPS doesn't have common sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tromador Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 Unless there is some special tactical reason, take the mooks down first every time. As a gunslinger[1], the vast majority of normal mobs I can take down in two hits (even one shot on a big crit). As far as I can see, removing them quickly is simple common sense, reducing incoming DPS and allowing the tank to concentrate aggro buildup on less targets. Then again, I've been playing MMOs for years up to and including raid lead level. I think that most players, if one takes the time to explain *why* something is a good idea, will rapidly change their ways and learn to play better. DPS may be an easy choice for an inexperienced player, but good well executed DPS really does make all the difference. What never works is simply barking orders at people. No matter how good you are, treating people like idiots (or intolerance of newbies) will not get a positive response. [1] I also tank on an inquisitor and heal on a sage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sumuser Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 Kill order is dynamic. As one poster pointed out, Kaon is an exception. Another exception is the make-up of the DPS crew. If I'm playing my 20k marauder alt and there is a 20k sniper or merc in the group, I do expect them to use their AOEs to take care of trash that is grp'ed while I take down the 32k guys... there is no reason to force jump to something that will be dead by time i get there. Instead of getting overally particular of the order, the most important thing to always remember is the DPS'ers job is to kill all the trash BEFORE you start on what the tank is holding and to always pay attention for ADDs (as they will swarm and kill the healer). Also use your FREAKING CCs and map a marker icon to a keyboard key. A crew that uses CCs, doesnt break CCs, mops up the trash the tank isnt holding, and watches for ADDs is a good group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlanetLove Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 (edited) The problem is, in a all other MMOs with the "holy trinity" (tank, healer ,dps) it is a faux pas to attack another target than the tank or to take damage as a dps other than during unavoidable AOE. It would get you kicked out of the group very quickly. So people have to adapt in SWTOR and many DPS players don't even know that you are supposed to tag all the weak and normal ones so they don't go for the healer and kill them first, then the hard mobs, then elite. There are some exceptions as mentioned. Your tank cannot keep aggro on all the mobs because AOE aggro and AOE ability range in SWTOR is limited and mobs are spread out and mostly ranged, which makes it harder to keep aggro on all mobs. Normal mobs don't do much damage, your healer can heal the dps much easier than himself when 3+ mobs shoot at him (spell pushback! ). Edited January 4, 2013 by PlanetLove Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonkeyGobbler Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 So people have to adapt in SWTOR and many DPS players don't even know that you are supposed to tag all the weak and normal ones so they don't go for the healer and kill them first, then the hard mobs, then elite. There are some exceptions as mentioned. On my healer I love those fights where I spend the entire time healing myself while everyone else is oblivious... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joesixxpack Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 (edited) I'm seeing issues with this far more frequently lately. Seems to go along with other behaviors like loafing behind the group and saying "lulz I'm watching youtube" when asked WTH? New blood in the game, so I'm assuming we're getting more bads with the goods. Edited January 4, 2013 by Joesixxpack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furiel Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 Humbug, everyone knows that the proper attack order for DPS is... 1) CCed targets 2) anything attacking you 3) anything attaking the other DPS 4) the next group 5) anything the healer is still attacking beacuse they can't kill it themselves because thy weren't smart enough to roll a DPS toon 6) anything the tank can't kill because they weren't smart enough to roll a DPS toon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tromador Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 Your tank cannot keep aggro on all the mobs because AOE aggro and AOE ability range in SWTOR is limited. That's why I like tanking on Assassin/Shadow. Much more AoE threat building than the other tanking classes. With a bit of practice and inventiveness with AoE placement, one can hold at least most of the mobs, even in a scattered pull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt_Beers Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 I used to hate healing the second pull in Maelstrom (I think), the one where you fight some big droids in front of the door and then you walk in and there is 15 regular mobs and a few strongs. Everyone would always jump to the strongs meanwhile I have 15 mobs chasing me around the hanger bay and everyone wonders why the healer is dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlosBC Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 I grasp and understand the concept, but I am admittedly guilty of this. I usually kill strongs first because I can wipe then out in about 3 seconds flat. Elites and above though, I ignore until the weaker enemies are taken care of. Isaac you are who I think of when I hear the words "gold fever" haha. <3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DakotaDoc Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 Here here!!!!! Biggest pet peave of mine in any heriocs/fp's/ops. I think most dps should start off as healer or tank to really know how much of a difference it is to kill adds first. My tank once got called worse tank in game, because, dps decided to attack the gold i started on, which left the 3 nons, 2 silvers attacking the healer. I left gold, took agro off the healer, both dps died, healer and I lived, we got that fight. Hence, i'm worse tank in game. Some people don't want to learn, or, listen to other people that may know better. I leave groups now after fast wipes. Exaclty, there should be some kind of training that people have to read before they are allowed in HM FP's. I have four tanks, Two DPS and one Seer Sage healer. I have seen them all and understand the role they should be doing Still I see DPS that want to play tank all the time. DPS is so much easier then the other two classes. There are few rules. 1:. Kill adds first, weak to strong. then help Tank. More adds appear, attack them. 2. If you see adds attacking healer, get them. Do not wait for the tank to drop aggro off the champ to pull them off the healer. That is your job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleidlein Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 As a tank i have learned to adapt to these situations in pugs. I am a pt bounty hunter. First thing is to tell the group to mark targets. Jump to the toughest non cc'ed target and throw a single mob taunt on it. Then turn to the weakest target or healer target and pull them to me or just mosey on over to them while throwing attacks at them. As the gunslinger said, they can drop one of these in a couple hits. It may take me 2 or 3 more hits to drop them than a dps, but i can do it, so if i solo it then no big deal. then move to next toughest and so on till i get back to the strongest. While doing this i am watching the healers health bar to make sure they didn't draw aggro on something and if their hp are going down then i will move to them mid fight to beat on their mob. If a dps has stayed on the elite i originally hit with a taunt then by the time he takes aggro by doing damage, I can get back to it and we can kill it off before he dies and/or my single target taunt will be refreshed and i can easily take back aggro. This has been very effective lately and i have had virtually no issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlosBC Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 When I tank its explosive dart on a group of weeks, charge at main group, grapple if necessary, and lolpowertech aoe. Foundry is the most annoying one to tank imo, as those droid packs are all so spread out, and the first pull is rather large and staggered. When j heal, prebubble and kill the normals myself. Shock - force lightning will kill one, or force storm if aoe. When I tank on the guardian its full rage DPS in tank stance, nothing lives long enough to worry about. DPSing on all 3 I try to kill weeks as much as possible, usually by catching them in aoes directed at strongs if I can. Maybe this is why I have very very few bad experiences in group finder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khevar Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 Humbug, everyone knows that the proper attack order for DPS is... 1) CCed targets 2) anything attacking you 3) anything attaking the other DPS 4) the next group 5) anything the healer is still attacking beacuse they can't kill it themselves because thy weren't smart enough to roll a DPS toon 6) anything the tank can't kill because they weren't smart enough to roll a DPS toon I just spit coffee all over my keyboard. a) thanks for the lulz b) now I have to find paper towels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyesmindassassin Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 Couldn't agree more, OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladwar Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 Humbug, everyone knows that the proper attack order for DPS is... 1) CCed targets 2) anything attacking you 3) anything attaking the other DPS 4) the next group 5) anything the healer is still attacking beacuse they can't kill it themselves because thy weren't smart enough to roll a DPS toon 6) anything the tank can't kill because they weren't smart enough to roll a DPS toon i do hope ur joking, but i have ran into groups with this thought in mind and they didn't aoe the cc they aoe after everything else but the last mob was dead and u mixed 5 with 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theodulus Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 Why can nobody seem to grasp this? Yes, you can get through your average hard mode without following a kill order, but guess what, it just means more stress on your tanks/healers.... you know, the ones who had to enter group finder for your queue to actually pop? And then those tanks/healers get tired of having to work extra hard to babysit braindead DPS, and stop queueing altogether, or only queue with guildies. So please please please, respect the kill order. Its literally no extra work for a DPS, and it makes life far easier on your tanks and healers. It's amazing how bad the dps are in this game. I thought that most dps should have learned the correct kill order while leveling. Many classes don't get their healing companions until later in the game which should have taught them they will wipe if they aren't killing the hard hitting weak mobs first. When I queue my healers for flashpoints I usually stay in the same spot tanking 4-7 mobs while the entire group runs ahead to the next group of mobs. At that moment I get all the mobs I'm tanking to the tank and let them use an AoE and then I vanish. I watch them all die. If they don't learn after that I put them all on ignore and just leave. I can't stand bad dps and bad tanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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