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Dread Guards Nightmare overtuned


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BioWare -

 

If you delay a patch to buff an operation/fix bugs, please ensure that the fights are actually tuned. With a raid comp of 2 Marauders, 1 Merc, 1 Sniper (all pulling 2400-2600 DPS), we are hitting a hard enrage on Kelsara around ~40% HP.

 

Our guild has cleared NiM TFB on PTS, cleared all your HM raids the week upon release, and are fully capable players. The fights damage/healing requirements/etc are fine, but the ENRAGE TIMER is impossible with our current gear (full Underworld). I appreciate making the encounters more difficult, but you need to tune these fights.

 

Healers would have to pull 1.7k DPS in order to beat the current enrage timer, but that's impossible given the healing requirements on this fight.

 

Below please watch a VOD of what I am referring to:

 

http://www.twitch.tv/fridge_sa/c/2415629

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The Gray Order can confirm this bug. We did not test on the PTS however immediately upon seeing the enrage timer on Dread Guards, and the DPS parses, we deemed this fight mathematically impossible given the current gear level.

 

Regards,

KK

Edited by Krazy_Karl
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Well, we asked for a challenge and we got it.

 

The patch has been out for barely four hours, only European guilds and a few morning US guilds have tried it so far. One guild got it down to 80%, you got it down to 40% and I am sure there are guilds that will be able to get it down to 10-20%. By the way, in P1 healing does not seem as intense, so you may try to have your healers DPS a little bit then.

 

In any case, it is way too early to call for a hotfix nerf, before more guilds have spent a few raiding nights on it. I'm looking forward to the challenge. :)

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Well, we asked for a challenge and we got it.

 

The patch has been out for barely four hours, only European guilds and a few morning US guilds have tried it so far. One guild got it down to 80%, you got it down to 40% and I am sure there are guilds that will be able to get it down to 10-20%. By the way, in P1 healing does not seem as intense, so you may try to have your healers DPS a little bit then.

 

In any case, it is way too early to call for a hotfix nerf, before more guilds have spent a few raiding nights on it. I'm looking forward to the challenge. :)

 

You haven't experienced it, so you have no idea or basis for these comments.

 

The guilds who have attempted it are top tier in the world. And simply put, the difference in percentages for various attempts are irrelevant. It is easy to calculate the DPS required to beat the enrage timer. As it stands right now, our assessment is based on what is MATHEMATICALLY POSSIBLE given the current gearing.

 

Regards,

KK

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By the way, in P1 healing does not seem as intense, so you may try to have your healers DPS a little bit then.

 

I disagree. We run, and always have run, with a Scoundrel and Commando. The healing required is ridiculous without a sage healer, almost not doable.

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So, from what I can tell, 3-4 top 10 guilds have already attempted this boss, including my guild(Ewok). Everyone is in consensus that this boss is over tuned. We decided a few hours of sleep was better than banging our heads against a wall for a few hours of wipes in the wee hours of the morning after already attempting them for a few hours.
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Lol, when its easy you complain and when its finally difficults, you complain as well?

 

You need to work on your reading comprehension. Difficult is not the same as impossible. Let me break this down for you as to what we wanted:

 

Difficult = good.

 

Impossible = bad.

 

Regards,

KK

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Can you post the HP on each boss, the HP of the adds, the hard enrage time in seconds and the approximate amount of time required to break Ciphas's bubble (being over/under on this value by a little bit doesn't have much impact on the DPS minima).

 

Personally, I'm really glad the enrage timer is hard. Everyone was complaining about trivial DPS checks on the PTS, so it's good to see things have been retuned. Whether or not it is truly mathematically over-tuned is still up in the air since we haven't seen numbers.

 

Something to consider: with a Resolve stim and DPS relics, I can get almost 1.2k DPS on my tank on Styrak. I'm almost positive I can get quite a bit more on the Dread Guard as the fight is more static and has fewer debuffs. 40% of Kel'sara really isn't that much, relatively speaking (even assuming even HP levels, 40% is equivalent to enraging at 13% on a normal boss). You may be able to eke out that much just by having your healers drop Affliction once every so often and your tanks pull more damage.

Edited by KeyboardNinja
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I saw the VOD and have some thoughts

1. Your guild enter a 16 man version with 8 man( is possible)

2. BW switched the enrage timer from 16 man to 8Man (most likely)BUG

because that fight you guys did and the ones on PTS that enrage timer is for 16 man NiM

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I saw the VOD and have some thoughts

1. Your guild enter a 16 man version with 8 man( is possible)

2. BW switched the enrage timer from 16 man to 8Man (most likely)BUG

because that fight you guys did and the ones on PTS that enrage timer is for 16 man NiM

 

We checked the hp on 16man and its double what it is on 8man (kelsara has 3mil)

 

2 may actually be the case

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Can you post the HP on each boss, the HP of the adds, the hard enrage time in seconds and the approximate amount of time required to break Ciphas's bubble (being over/under on this value by a little bit doesn't have much impact on the DPS minima).

 

Personally, I'm really glad the enrage timer is hard. Everyone was complaining about trivial DPS checks on the PTS, so it's good to see things have been retuned. Whether or not it is truly mathematically over-tuned is still up in the air since we haven't seen numbers.

 

Something to consider: with a Resolve stim and DPS adrenals, I can get almost 1.2k DPS on my tank on Styrak. I'm almost positive I can get quite a bit more on the Dread Guard as the fight is more static and has fewer debuffs. 40% of Kel'sara really isn't that much, relatively speaking (even assuming even HP levels, 40% is equivalent to enraging at 13% on a normal boss). You may be able to eke out that much just by having your healers drop Affliction once every so often and your tanks pull more damage.

 

I would encourage you to go in and try for yourself as those of us already have so you too can waste your time attempting a broken encounter.

 

Regards,

KK

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Lol, when its easy you complain and when its finally difficults, you complain as well?

 

There's a difference between challenging and impossible. If I'm expected to kill a boss with 5 million health within 300 seconds and each dps does 3,000 dps, each tank 1,200 dps and both healers at 800 we can expect a maximum of 16,000 dps even at that maximum compactly you'll only do 4,800,000 so where does that extra two hundred dps come from? Same applies here, impossible is impossible if full 72 dps, tanks and healers can't do it when the game is meant to be balanced for ANY composition of classes to succeed.

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Can you post the HP on each boss, the HP of the adds, the hard enrage time in seconds and the approximate amount of time required to break Ciphas's bubble (being over/under on this value by a little bit doesn't have much impact on the DPS minima).

 

Personally, I'm really glad the enrage timer is hard. Everyone was complaining about trivial DPS checks on the PTS, so it's good to see things have been retuned. Whether or not it is truly mathematically over-tuned is still up in the air since we haven't seen numbers.

 

Something to consider: with a Resolve stim and DPS relics, I can get almost 1.2k DPS on my tank on Styrak. I'm almost positive I can get quite a bit more on the Dread Guard as the fight is more static and has fewer debuffs. 40% of Kel'sara really isn't that much, relatively speaking (even assuming even HP levels, 40% is equivalent to enraging at 13% on a normal boss). You may be able to eke out that much just by having your healers drop Affliction once every so often and your tanks pull more damage.

 

a tank's dps isnt going to make up for the dps check required and the healers >>>can not<<< afford to dps

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I would encourage you to go in and try for yourself as those of us already have so you too can waste your time attempting a broken encounter.

 

I will. My guild isn't running tonight due to scheduling, but we will be in there tomorrow. 2400-2600 DPS is high, but it isn't really the highest I've seen on that fight. We went in there last night and everyone parsed over a 2.7k. Granted, NiM has both red circles and adds, which significantly drop DPS levels, but still. I'm really curious to see exactly how tight this is.

 

In the meantime, I would encourage you to bring numbers whenever you claim something is "mathematically impossible" (as you have now on multiple threads). I would be more than happy to concede the accuracy of your statement if I was able to verify it with, you know, mathematics.

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Based on the streams it seems the enrage timer is 7 minutes (420 seconds) in 8 man nightmare.

 

HP is as follows (for 8-man):

Heirad: 1309032

Ciphas: 1716816

Kelsara: 1394913

Dread Guard Legionnaire: 47535

 

o-o

 

That's roughly 1.4* million more than pts. I think I found the issue here.

Edited by mastirkal
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Can you post the HP on each boss, the HP of the adds, the hard enrage time in seconds and the approximate amount of time required to break Ciphas's bubble (being over/under on this value by a little bit doesn't have much impact on the DPS minima).

 

I've been watching streams at work and the numbers for what I've seem to be as follows:

 

Heirad: 1309072

Ciphas: 1716816

Kel'sara: 1394913

 

Dread Guard Legionnaire: 47538

Dread Guard Legionnaire: 47535

Dread Guard Legionnaire: 47535

 

410 Second Enrage

 

12 Second Ciphas shield break

 

All of the numbers were from the OP's video.

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Based on the streams it seems the enrage timer is 7 minutes (420 seconds) in 8 man nightmare.

 

HP is as follows (for 8-man):

Heirad: 1309032

Ciphas: 1716816

Kelsara: 1394913

Dread Guard Legionnaire: 47535

 

1309032 + 1716816 + 1394913 + (47535 * 2 * 3) = 4705971

 

Note that I'm doubling the Legionaire to represent the AoE DPS loss due to the need to kill the remainder of the adds. I'm assuming you have enough AoE DPS that you don't need to single-target them down.

 

11204.692857143 DPS required

 

Tanks: 1.2k each

Healers: 0k each

DPS: 2202

 

Estimated Ciphas bubble delay: 12 seconds. Accounting for this delay:

 

420 - 24 = 396

 

11883.765151515 DPS required

 

DPS: 2371

 

This is not mathematically impossible.

 

I think what guilds are seeing right now is multi-fold. First, tanks are probably not pulling their weight. Second, DPS are unfamiliar with the NiM mechanics and psyching themselves out a bit, and thus losing a LOT of DPS due to mechanics. The numbers that people are posting (e.g. 2.6k DPS) are net over the whole fight and probably include a lot of incidental AoE on bosses that heal back up. The numbers I posted above are effective DPS, which means that you don't get to count incidental AoE on the other bosses toward your effective number.

Edited by KeyboardNinja
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