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Why should I feel bad about wanting to faceroll fresh 55's?


BalphoWan

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You shouldn't, only Failware should feel bad. This is a game, if players can kill they have the right to and enjoying it is the whole point of the experience!

 

I remember a term from Non-carebear PvP games, "red = dead", now its "pvp on old the republic = dead"

 

It's Red = KoS (kill on sight)

 

Meh, i already gave up with MMORPGs as pvp games. They just plainly suck, most of them are warzone/battleground based, and they don't even work a little to make them really work (balancing classes/roles/matchmaking before the game even starts). Over the years, and playing other games which are not MMORPGs, you see how It's a watered down PvP experience to catter PvE'rs who enjoy carrots.

Edited by Keldaur
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Assuming completely mirror matchups (otherwise class matchup can be a much bigger factor) with equal gear, skill is what lets you win maybe 6 out of 10 or 3 out of 4 instead of just 1 out of 2 against your opponent.

 

It's because skill actually doesn't get you very much in this game that people need gear as a crutch. With EWH gear, WZ adrenal, and WZ medpack on my back I can comfortably win 9 out of 10 in some matchups. Now that the gear advantage is lessened it's only about 3 out of 4. It you take away my medpack and adrenal it's going to go even closer to 1 out of 2. This is supposed to be a good thing. I shouldn't be winning because I have better/more drugs than the enemy.

 

You don't have better/more drugs than the enemy. They have access to the same drugs as you. I didn't want this thread to turn into a skill vs gear debate. But i guess it was unavoidable. What you are saying reminds me of something alot of people used to tell me when I was in school, "I am really smart, I just don't study." Well guess what, if you don't study, you are not as smart as you think you are. Skill and preaparation for a WZ, i.e., acquiring gear and medpacs/adrenals, go hand in hand. I would argue that a skilled player that doesn't adequately prepare for a WZ is not as skilled as he thinks. Gearing and preparation and knowing your rotation and the weaknesses of other classes are all part of being skilled. The distinction between skill and gear is less clear than many of you think, in my opinion. That is not really what this thread is about. The means by which you acquire an advantage over lesser players is not the issue in this thread. The issue is that I think that advantage should exist, and should be determined by the time and effort a player puts into obtaining that advantage. Accordingly, that player should not feel bad when he takes advantage of that advantage (sorry if that was confusing).

Edited by BalphoWan
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Sigh... It's hard to get mad at a well written, eloquent (is that redundant?) post. That said I can't really agree with the sentiment of enjoying face rolling... Just because or justifying it because, we went through it. In 2004 they (the Joint Commission) implemented a rule that resident physicians could only work 80 hrs per week and no more than 30 consecutive hours with no new patients the last 6. People were pissed. They were like we did it why can't they! I came in the middle of that... And I can tell you thank god for the limits.

 

The point is just because "we" did it, or went through it doesn't mean that's the way it should be. Wouldn't it have been more enjoyable for you in the beginning if yiu didn't get lol stomped? The biggest joy I get is when I play against a premade in a mostly pug and either win or give them a go of it. The only thing, IMHO, good about fighting lower/under geared players is that I got dailies/weeklies done faster.

 

I like the carrot at the end of the stick too. I just think the carrot should be non game changing, like better titles, better looking shells, weapons with cool affects, stuff like that. Then I can show up in a WZ with my sparkly gun and glowing helmet and they opponents will go "damn that guy has logged some pvp time". Hopefully at the end of the match they aren't thinking "dang all that pvp time and he still sucks!"

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Until recently when the price of WZ adrenal/medpack crashed, they were absolutely a 'gear' part. They're not even usable optimally (which would be chugging as many as you reasonably can) even for fairly hardcore players and not usable strategically for any casual player. If something can be bought with credits it's not skill. Preparing for the enemy would be skill if it's like say, "I know these guy like to hit this spot with these guys so we need to be ready for it". Running an alt to do dailys for more WZ adrenal/medpack is not skill. It's like saying being level 55 instead of level 54 before you try to gank someone is skill because obviously being at level 55 gives you a better chance to successfully gank someone.
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Until recently when the price of WZ adrenal/medpack crashed, they were absolutely a 'gear' part. They're not even usable optimally (which would be chugging as many as you reasonably can) even for fairly hardcore players and not usable strategically for any casual player. If something can be bought with credits it's not skill. Preparing for the enemy would be skill if it's like say, "I know these guy like to hit this spot with these guys so we need to be ready for it". Running an alt to do dailys for more WZ adrenal/medpack is not skill. It's like saying being level 55 instead of level 54 before you try to gank someone is skill because obviously being at level 55 gives you a better chance to successfully gank someone.

 

I don't want to get into a semantic debate about what it means to be "skilled." What I am saying is that taking the time to get every advantage you can when going into a WZ is something that I think skilled players do. That is just my opinion. I think there is skill in looking for the best ways to make sure you are prepared to have every edge you can in a WZ. If that means researching the cheapest/fastest ways to replensih you stock of medpacs/adrenals, then I think that is part of being a skilled player. All I am really saying is that gear, whether it be gear you wear or consumables, and skill are inseparable. And when two players face off in PVP, the combination of both play intertwined roles that are difficult to disseminate. And I will say this, I have met geared players that are unskilled, but I have met very few skilled players that are not geared. In other words, when you are talking about PVP vets, separating skill from gear is moot, because more often than not they have both, and it is difficult to discern how much of each was responsible for him facerolling an opponenent with neither. Thus, again, whether it is skill or gear that creates the advantage, is not the issue. Whether you think the advantage should exist and whether you think players should revel in the advantage is the issue.

Edited by BalphoWan
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Just because skilled players are almost certainly well geared does not imply the reverse, namely well geared players are skilled.

 

There's nothing 'skill' about preparing in ways that are constrained by resources. You can hand any bad player 5 stacks of WZ consumables and he'll be able to use them fine, probably even better than a skilled player since he's not concerned about replenishing them to begin with.

 

Undergeared characters almost certainly do not have time, because otherwise they wouldn't be undergeared. Therefore it is also impossible for them to gain any advantage that is a function of time investment. I don't particularly have a problem with that, but I have never heard of skill being defined as 'having more time than the other guy'.

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I'm sure by now, everyone has moved on to bashing whoever they imagine is supporting their pet peeve, but to address the original topic a bit:

 

I enjoy PvP. My wife enjoys PvP. After some reluctance, we both jumped into the sub-50 PvP while leveling a pair of our many characters. With a little practice, we got fairly good. We have our off matches and some characters just aren't set up for certain matches, but in general we find ourselves in the top half of pretty much all the matches we play. On our higher level characters, we're reliably near the top. We're usually maxed on our Valor rank. We are regularly shopping comms for gear because we have loads of them. But for over a year: We stopped as soon as we hit Lvl 50.

 

Why?

 

Because reaching 50 was like crawling onto a highway. After a long journey, you reach your goal... only to be steamrolled with no hope of survival.

 

For a long time, we just assumed that this was because the Lvl50 PvPers had been at max level for a while and were just more practiced and skilled than we were. We have jobs and other hobbies and no real desire to treat the game like some sport, so we're very unlikely to join in on that sort of gameplay. When our most recent pair hit 50, we (for some reason) planned it out to max out our WZ comms and buy up a number of WH pieces. Somewhat cautiously, we tossed them on our characters with a bunch of the recruit gear and gave Lvl50 PvP another try.

 

And it was still disappointing. But in a different way.

 

We were in mixed Recruit/War-Hero gear.... and doing well. We could see that the people around us were in better gear than we were, but we were still making kills. We ninja-capped two pylons. We 2-vs-2'ed another pylon, killed them both and capped the pylon. We defended a pylon against 4 other players. And it became clear why we hadn't done well in the past.

 

Gear was everything.

 

Many of the people we were playing with weren't actually all that good --at least, no good enough to warrant any particular respect. We remembered way better players from the sub-50 bracket. There were still the PvP Monsters, but they existed in sub-50, too. It became really clear that a lot of the people in the Lvl50 bracket were totally dependent on their gear advantage, and the moment you removed that, they were just average players.

 

Why should you feel back about wanting to faceroll fresh 55's? The greater the chance that you faceroll them, the fewer of them that will be willing to even join in. And if you care at all about PvP, then that should be something that concerns you.

 

More importantly: You should feel bad because many of them are better than you, and the only reason you can stand up to them is because you've got your gear protecting you.

 

I'm still not going to be playing WZs to prove my skill. I'm not going to practice to be the best I can be. I'm going to enjoy myself. But its going to be easier to do that now that I won't be sucker-punched for three weeks after hitting 55 by a bunch of players who are only effective when their targets are at a severe disadvantage.

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Just because skilled players are almost certainly well geared does not imply the reverse, namely well geared players are skilled.

 

There's nothing 'skill' about preparing in ways that are constrained by resources. You can hand any bad player 5 stacks of WZ consumables and he'll be able to use them fine, probably even better than a skilled player since he's not concerned about replenishing them to begin with.

 

Undergeared characters almost certainly do not have time, because otherwise they wouldn't be undergeared. Therefore it is also impossible for them to gain any advantage that is a function of time investment. I don't particularly have a problem with that, but I have never heard of skill being defined as 'having more time than the other guy'.

 

Noted. But that is not how I define it. I am saying that your, and admittedly mant others', definition of "skill" is too narrow. Your assertion that having more time does not equate to skill is diificult to refute. But that is not what I am saying. I might say that spending your time wisely to gain as many advantages in WZ's is something a skilled player would do. Or rather, someone who doesn't take time that they have to adequately prepare for WZ's is not as skilled. But again, this isn't really the issue I intended to discuss in my OP.

Edited by BalphoWan
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Noted. But that is not how I define it. I am saying that your, and admittedly mant others', definition of "skill" is too narrow. Your assertion that having more time does not equate to skill is diificult to refute. But that is not what I am saying. I might say that spending your time wisely to gain as many advantages in WZ's is something a skilled player would do. Or rather, someone who doesn't take time that they have to adequately prepare for WZ's is not as skilled. But again, this isn't really the issue I intended to discuss in my OP.

 

Obviously skilled players can also spend less time to do the same things. For example let's say you get exactly 100 comms per game and you win exactly 50% fo your game. For a lowbie, you'd need 1.33 games to finish your daily, and assuming you put all your comms into consumables as well, then you get (13.3 + 20) / 1.33 = ~25 consumables per game.

 

Now for a level 55 character with the identical payout, you'd need 2.66 games to finish your daily which nets you 30 consumables (this is assuming you used your RWZ comms to buy consumables), so you get (26.6 + 30) / 2.66 = 21.3 consumables per game. And this is assuming you make the rather ridiculous decision to use all your RWZ from the daily to buy consumables. So clearly, it is always more beneficial to have an alt running dailys to replenish your consumables and that's the smart thing to do. An unskilled player might not realize this. But I'd argue the overwhelming case for the average guy you used to roll over, he isn't thinking about consumables at all because whatever comms he has needs to go into gear first, so he's not choosing this by choice. The guy with a ton of consumables probably did put in some thought as to how to obtain them efficeintly, but the guy who isn't using them is doing so because he doesn't even have the time to get geared (which is why he got rolled) so even if he knew how to optimally get consumables, it doesn't help him.

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I have been going through the forums the last couple of days listening to all the flaming and the QQing about bolster and the removal of expertise from E/WH gear. I have read alot of posts in favor of the new bolster system. Those posts usually praise the attempt to eliminate the gap between a fully BIS geared PVP player and a fresh 55 with little to no PVP gear. Many of those that have taken that position often flame PVP players for wanting to roflstomp fresh level 55 players. I find myself feeling ashamed that I enjoy doing that. And this has started to bother me.

 

I came into 2.0 with half WH and half EWH gear. I am at valor rank 70. I took my licks to get there like everyone else. I have played MMO's for years, and this is the first one that I have played PVP. I have always been predominantly a PVE player (and still am). When I finally decided to jump head first into PVP, it was VERY frustrating. But with every WZ it got more and more fun, and I started to get an edge. Eventually, three of my guildies and I started to really be able to "dominate" in about 80% of the WZ's we entered. It was really fun! But more importantly, it was earned.

 

Now, I LOVE an evenly matched WZ. But, as a PVE player,my first love is the gear hunt. Without a juicy carrot hanging in front of my face, I get bored easily. It is that aspect of MMO's to which I have always been drawn. I guess that is why I was never bothered with the gap between fresh 50's and full EWH 50's prior to 2.0. There was that huge carrot of wanting to get the gear that would enable me to dominate like all of those players who facerolled me when I first started playing WZ's.

 

An now to my point. Why do I have to feel ashamed about that??? Is there honor in facerolling a noob with no PVP gear? No. But it does make you feel like the gear you took the time to earn means something; like it is powerful. And I don't feel like that is something I should have to hide. So...

 

MY NAME IS BALPHOWAN. I PLAY PVP. AND I LIKE TO FACEROLL NOOBS SOMETIMES.

 

 

Then you're half of everything that is wrong with PVP. Wanting a carrot is one thing. Wanting others to get facerolled just because you were frustrated shows an amazing lack of empathy, and an underlying belief that the only way you can beat fresh 55s is if you out gear them. You should be able to beat them cause you're better than they are, having acquired that skill by PVPing. If someone is better than you, they should beat you. At the very least they should have a fighting chance. You still have an advantage over them with full conq gear. You just can't faceoll them. If you don't like them then you're the kinda person that I always thought the bads made up to justify their QQ. Don't be someone who justifies baddie QQ.

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I'm sure by now, everyone has moved on to bashing whoever they imagine is supporting their pet peeve, but to address the original topic a bit:

 

I enjoy PvP. My wife enjoys PvP. After some reluctance, we both jumped into the sub-50 PvP while leveling a pair of our many characters. With a little practice, we got fairly good. We have our off matches and some characters just aren't set up for certain matches, but in general we find ourselves in the top half of pretty much all the matches we play. On our higher level characters, we're reliably near the top. We're usually maxed on our Valor rank. We are regularly shopping comms for gear because we have loads of them. But for over a year: We stopped as soon as we hit Lvl 50.

 

Why?

 

Because reaching 50 was like crawling onto a highway. After a long journey, you reach your goal... only to be steamrolled with no hope of survival.

 

For a long time, we just assumed that this was because the Lvl50 PvPers had been at max level for a while and were just more practiced and skilled than we were. We have jobs and other hobbies and no real desire to treat the game like some sport, so we're very unlikely to join in on that sort of gameplay. When our most recent pair hit 50, we (for some reason) planned it out to max out our WZ comms and buy up a number of WH pieces. Somewhat cautiously, we tossed them on our characters with a bunch of the recruit gear and gave Lvl50 PvP another try.

 

And it was still disappointing. But in a different way.

 

We were in mixed Recruit/War-Hero gear.... and doing well. We could see that the people around us were in better gear than we were, but we were still making kills. We ninja-capped two pylons. We 2-vs-2'ed another pylon, killed them both and capped the pylon. We defended a pylon against 4 other players. And it became clear why we hadn't done well in the past.

 

Gear was everything.

 

Many of the people we were playing with weren't actually all that good --at least, no good enough to warrant any particular respect. We remembered way better players from the sub-50 bracket. There were still the PvP Monsters, but they existed in sub-50, too. It became really clear that a lot of the people in the Lvl50 bracket were totally dependent on their gear advantage, and the moment you removed that, they were just average players.

 

Why should you feel back about wanting to faceroll fresh 55's? The greater the chance that you faceroll them, the fewer of them that will be willing to even join in. And if you care at all about PvP, then that should be something that concerns you.

 

More importantly: You should feel bad because many of them are better than you, and the only reason you can stand up to them is because you've got your gear protecting you.

I'm still not going to be playing WZs to prove my skill. I'm not going to practice to be the best I can be. I'm going to enjoy myself. But its going to be easier to do that now that I won't be sucker-punched for three weeks after hitting 55 by a bunch of players who are only effective when their targets are at a severe disadvantage.

 

I understand what you are saying, and I respect your opinion. But I think you, like many others, are misunderstanding what I am saying and oversimplifying the skill vs gear debate. I am not trying to say there aren't many players out there with good PVP gear who are not "skilled" at PVP. Becuase of the fact that, in theory, you can get the gear without ever killing another player in PVP, it is obvious that an unskilled player could get good gear. But doesn't the unskilled PVP player who got the gear deserve a reward for putting in the time? But regardless, that is not the issue. You say that "gear is everything." The isue is how much an advantage should be gained from gear. I don't think we disagree that gear should give you some advantage. At that point it is just a discussion of quantity. You and I may disagree on how much of an advantage should come with better gear. That is merely just our opinions, and there isn't much discussion warranted on that subject.

 

The more important thing you said, in my opinon, is that I should be concerned with the gear gap driving away PVP players like yourself. And as I mentioned in a previous post, I am concerned about that. There has to be a balance. We just disgree on where to strike that balance. And that's okay. It is not necessary to personally attack and say that my gear is the only thing giving me an advantage. That may be true. I don't think it is, but it may be. The point is that I worked long and hard to get my gear. I also worked long and hard to develop whatever PVP skills I have. And I think that the time and effort i put into getting those skills and gear warrant reward. In my opinion. that reward should be a distinct advantage against lesser skilled and/or lesser geared players. Hence, I don't think I should be ashamed when I reap that reward in the form of facerolling a lesser skilled and/or lesser geared player.

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Then you're half of everything that is wrong with PVP. Wanting a carrot is one thing. Wanting others to get facerolled just because you were frustrated shows an amazing lack of empathy, and an underlying belief that the only way you can beat fresh 55s is if you out gear them. You should be able to beat them cause you're better than they are, having acquired that skill by PVPing. If someone is better than you, they should beat you. At the very least they should have a fighting chance. You still have an advantage over them with full conq gear. You just can't faceoll them. If you don't like them then you're the kinda person that I always thought the bads made up to justify their QQ. Don't be someone who justifies baddie QQ.

 

You are sorely misunderstanding me. I never said nor do I want others to get facerolled. I said that I enjoy when it happens sometimes, and I don't think I should be ashamed of enjoying it. I also explicitly said in a later post that I do not seek out lesser geared and/or lesser skilled players. If I did, I would have griefed players during the Gree open world PVP event on Ilum. That is something very different from your accusation. I choose targets in a WZ based on strategy in that particular WZ. I enjoy a fight on an even playing field, much more than when I faceroll a lesser geared/skilled player. But why can I not enjoy both, especiially when I do not seek out the latter?? Why can't I enjoy the fact that it took me a lot of time and effort to be able to get to a point where I can do that?? Is that so bad?? If it is, then I am guilty as charged.

 

And by your logic, I can enjoy facerolling someone if I am more skilled than them, but not if it iis because I am more geared. Why?? Both take time and effort to acquire. Whether it is skill or gear that is the reason I facerolled an opponent, neither were given to me. They were earned. So why is one more honorable than the other??

Edited by BalphoWan
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OMG BalphoWan, I agree completely. In fact I think your rule should apply to every competition human beings engage in, not just MMOs. Let's take chess for example. Obviously the current system is broken, giving every player an equal number of pieces at the beginning of a game is a commie pinko socialist idea straight out of Marx's book.

 

Players should be given pieces based on how much they play, so for example if Kasparov wanted to play chess today he should start the game with only the king (he's retired and doesn't play chess anymore, so any "gear" he got would now be 5 tiers behind if this were an MMO), meanwhile a guy let's call him Mr. Smith, who religiously attends every local tournament (and gets his *** handed to him at every one of them) should start with 5 queens 10 rooks and so on.

 

So, if Mr. Smith and Kasparov were to play chess, by your "logic", then Mr. Smith would win AND THAT'S THE WAY IT SHOULD BE CUS MR. SMITH IS OBVIOUSLY BETTER AT CHESS! Wooooo!

 

Should be the same with everything. High jump? People who attend more competitions should jump off a crate or something, after all they should have some reward for attending competitions. Sprint? Make everyone run different distances, based on how many competitions they attended last year. Boxing? Give the attender more points at the beginning of the match. After all, he's obviously a better fighter. If he were to meet a thug in the dark alley he could totally show him all those certificates from all the comps he attended and the thug would be totally beaten by this very act.

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OMG BalphoWan, I agree completely. In fact I think your rule should apply to every competition human beings engage in, not just MMOs. Let's take chess for example. Obviously the current system is broken, giving every player an equal number of pieces at the beginning of a game is a commie pinko socialist idea straight out of Marx's book.

 

Players should be given pieces based on how much they play, so for example if Kasparov wanted to play chess today he should start the game with only the king (he's retired and doesn't play chess anymore, so any "gear" he got would now be 5 tiers behind if this were an MMO), meanwhile a guy let's call him Mr. Smith, who religiously attends every local tournament (and gets his *** handed to him at every one of them) should start with 5 queens 10 rooks and so on.

 

So, if Mr. Smith and Kasparov were to play chess, by your "logic", then Mr. Smith would win AND THAT'S THE WAY IT SHOULD BE CUS MR. SMITH IS OBVIOUSLY BETTER AT CHESS! Wooooo!

 

Should be the same with everything. High jump? People who attend more competitions should jump off a crate or something, after all they should have some reward for attending competitions. Sprint? Make everyone run different distances, based on how many competitions they attended last year. Boxing? Give the attender more points at the beginning of the match. After all, he's obviously a better fighter. If he were to meet a thug in the dark alley he could totally show him all those certificates from all the comps he attended and the thug would be totally beaten by this very act.

 

While you were attempting to sound smart and funny, I do believe you missed his point.

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OMG BalphoWan, I agree completely. In fact I think your rule should apply to every competition human beings engage in, not just MMOs. Let's take chess for example. Obviously the current system is broken, giving every player an equal number of pieces at the beginning of a game is a commie pinko socialist idea straight out of Marx's book.

 

Players should be given pieces based on how much they play, so for example if Kasparov wanted to play chess today he should start the game with only the king (he's retired and doesn't play chess anymore, so any "gear" he got would now be 5 tiers behind if this were an MMO), meanwhile a guy let's call him Mr. Smith, who religiously attends every local tournament (and gets his *** handed to him at every one of them) should start with 5 queens 10 rooks and so on.

 

So, if Mr. Smith and Kasparov were to play chess, by your "logic", then Mr. Smith would win AND THAT'S THE WAY IT SHOULD BE CUS MR. SMITH IS OBVIOUSLY BETTER AT CHESS! Wooooo!

 

Should be the same with everything. High jump? People who attend more competitions should jump off a crate or something, after all they should have some reward for attending competitions. Sprint? Make everyone run different distances, based on how many competitions they attended last year. Boxing? Give the attender more points at the beginning of the match. After all, he's obviously a better fighter. If he were to meet a thug in the dark alley he could totally show him all those certificates from all the comps he attended and the thug would be totally beaten by this very act.

 

This is an MMO. It is not chess or the Olympics my friend. I did not design the game, or the paradigm within which 99% of MMO's operate and flourish. MMO's are built around the gear hunt. The SWTOR devs instituted the gear hunt for PVP. You are trying to tell me and them that you don't think the gear hunt should exist, or if it does, that it should not provide an advantage against other players. That's fine. That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. But the gear hunt does exist, despite your melodramatic, and flawed, analogies to support the idea that it shouldn't (socialism? really?), and you are trying to tell me that I am a bad person for enjoying the benefits of it. That is where I am confused.

 

Let's take your example of chess. Lets say that a group of friends get together to start a chess league, and they implement certain rules. Now, all the players in that league agree to the rules. The rule is that the more you play the more pieces you can use. All players agree and the chess club flourishes. Then you come along, and you want to be part of the chess club. But you don't like the rule about not being able to use all the pieces right away. Who are you going to get mad at? The player who has been in the club for the last year and has all the pieces or the person that created the club? Or anyone for that matter? Why would you be mad at the person who has worked hard for a year to get all those pieces and enjoys beating the other players IN THE CLUB who haven't worked as hard (in case you were wondering, that person is me by the way)? Why would you even get mad at the person who created the chess club? Why wouldn't you just choose to join another league? Or better yet, if you really like this leagure, why not take your time and get all the pieces too? The only thing I don't understand is your rage toward the person who signed up for the club like everyone else and enjoys the beneifts that the club was designed for?

 

SWTOR is a club my friend. It is a club that was formed by certain people who based the sytem under which it operates off of many clubs before it. Your analogy presupposes the notion that SWTOR has labeled its game as something that preexisted the devs decision to develop this game as they saw fit, and , as such, must follow those rules and not it's own. Chess existed long before my hypothetical chess league. Thus, you can go to that chess league and tell them that they are not playing "chess." But SWTOR was created by the people who developed SWTOR (as dumb as that sounds I am trying to make a point). If the person that created chess had designed it as you described it above, would you be yelling at him for being a capitalist? No, I suspect you would just go play checkers. That might be the better game for you anyway. ;)

Edited by BalphoWan
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I understand what you are saying, and I respect your opinion. But I think you, like many others, are misunderstanding what I am saying and oversimplifying the skill vs gear debate. I am not trying to say there aren't many players out there with good PVP gear who are not "skilled" at PVP. Becuase of the fact that, in theory, you can get the gear without ever killing another player in PVP, it is obvious that an unskilled player could get good gear. But doesn't the unskilled PVP player who got the gear deserve a reward for putting in the time? But regardless, that is not the issue. You say that "gear is everything." The isue is how much an advantage should be gained from gear. I don't think we disagree that gear should give you some advantage. At that point it is just a discussion of quantity. You and I may disagree on how much of an advantage should come with better gear. That is merely just our opinions, and there isn't much discussion warranted on that subject.

 

The more important thing you said, in my opinon, is that I should be concerned with the gear gap driving away PVP players like yourself. And as I mentioned in a previous post, I am concerned about that. There has to be a balance. We just disgree on where to strike that balance. And that's okay. It is not necessary to personally attack and say that my gear is the only thing giving me an advantage. That may be true. I don't think it is, but it may be. The point is that I worked long and hard to get my gear. I also worked long and hard to develop whatever PVP skills I have. And I think that the time and effort i put into getting those skills and gear warrant reward. In my opinion. that reward should be a distinct advantage against lesser skilled and/or lesser geared players. Hence, I don't think I should be ashamed when I reap that reward in the form of facerolling a lesser skilled and/or lesser geared player.

 

You are hilarious man. So lesser geared players are "rewards to be reaped"? You are a laughable individual...

Now, of course lesser skilled players should be beaten by better skilled players, but PvP CANNOT revolve around gear. If a player is better than you, then they should win. This isn't PvE, this is Player vs. Player; This isn't Gear + Kid who thinks he's good vs. Undergeared Player.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't think gear progression should be taken out of pvp, but I do think expertise should be toned down exponentially. It's not a matter of "Boo-hoo, I was beaten by a kid in PvE gear because my expertise isn't saving me." or "I put more time into PvP, and got my *** kicked (because I'm bad) to get my God gear, so why am I still losing?". It is a matter of Skill>Gear, which should always be the case in any form of Player vs. Player.

 

I think gear should still give an advantage, but not to the point of literally walking over undergeared players of greater skill. Believe me, you DON'T DESERVE THAT...

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You are hilarious man. So lesser geared players are "rewards to be reaped"? You are a laughable individual...

Now, of course lesser skilled players should be beaten by better skilled players, but PvP CANNOT revolve around gear. If a player is better than you, then they should win. This isn't PvE, this is Player vs. Player; This isn't Gear + Kid who thinks he's good vs. Undergeared Player.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't think gear progression should be taken out of pvp, but I do think expertise should be toned down exponentially. It's not a matter of "Boo-hoo, I was beaten by a kid in PvE gear because my expertise isn't saving me." or "I put more time into PvP, and got my *** kicked (because I'm bad) to get my God gear, so why am I still losing?". It is a matter of Skill>Gear, which should always be the case in any form of Player vs. Player.

 

I think gear should still give an advantage, but not to the point of literally walking over undergeared players of greater skill. Believe me, you DON'T DESERVE THAT...

 

TL;DR

 

"Yes Balphowan, I agree gear should warrant some advantage; we just disgree on how much."

 

That is exaclty what I stated in my post. And I agree with you that the way I stated that facerolling an opponent should be my reward was morbid. I didn't mean it like that. The reward to which I was referring was the increase in my stats compared to others that enable me to out perform them. Is that nice enough for you?

Edited by BalphoWan
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All the unpleasant flaming this issue has drawn notwithstanding, the issues I have are -

 

What is the carrot now given the gear is almost irrelevant.

 

Why is equivalent PVP gear lower stat budget than PVE.

 

Why do PVE players get an equalizer in PVP but PVP players don't get one in PVE.

 

In PVP in other games there was always high risk attached to glass cannon gear and builds. Some have always been able to wear PVE gear in PVP just to blow stuff up but there was also great risk involved and required good teamwork to protect them. This change has put training wheels on PVE gear and almost encourages level 72 glass cannon play as three quarters of the risk has been removed.

 

I used to be a hard core raider in WOW, then with SWTOR I never found a right fit. There's too much trolling, entitlement and just plain rudeness to make me want to invest in a guild again. So I PVP. I have always wanted to see progression though, getting those swish shoulders, or the awesome graphic bow..... and now... I just don't see it anymore. Its like each game I step into.. thats all there is. If killing people who were underprepared floated your boat, I really don't see a problem with it. You didn't expect to have an easy time in a raid undergeared either.

Edited by Rantank
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SWTOR is a club my friend. It is a club that was formed by certain people who based the sytem under which it operates off of many clubs before it. Your analogy presupposes the notion that SWTOR has labeled its game as something that preexisted the devs decision to develop this game as they saw fit, and , as such, must follow those rules and not it's own. Chess existed long before my hypothetical chess league. Thus, you can go to that chess league and tell them that they are not playing "chess." But SWTOR was created by the people who developed SWTOR (as dumb as that sounds I am trying to make a point). If the person that created chess had designed it as you described it above, would you be yelling at him for being a socialist? No, I suspect you would just go play checkers. That might be the better game for you anyway. ;)

 

So. You suggest that if I don't like gear grind I should just shut up and leave to play some other game. Fine.

 

Except, newsflash. The current rules of "SWTOR club" as you call it are: "undress and compete on equal footing with people who spent months grinding their EWH set". And devs have repeatedly stated that even when naked WZs are fixed they want the gear gap to be minimal.

 

So. If you want gear grinds, may I suggest you take your very own advice? I hear World of Warcraft has some nice looong gear grinds with huge gear gap AND uber cool kungfu pandas. You're also free to start your own "club" where there will be no game at all, just the guy who showed up to more matches previously will be automatically proclaimed winner. I wonder how many people would be interested in such an activity.

Edited by Lelvannia
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So. You suggest that if I don't like gear grind I should just shut up and leave to play some other game. Fine.

 

Except, newsflash. The current rules of "SWTOR club" as you call it are: "undress and compete on equal footing with people who spent months grinding their EWH set". And devs have repeatedly stated that even when naked WZs are fixed they want the gear gap to be minimal.

 

So. If you want gear grinds, may I suggest you take your very own advice? I hear World of Warcraft has some nice looong gear grinds with huge gear gap AND uber cool kungfu pandas. You're also free to start your own "club" where there will be no game at all, just the guy who showed up to more matches previously will be automatically proclaimed winner. I wonder how many people would be interested in such an activity.

 

Respectfully, I still think you are missing the point. In a sense I was telling you if you don't like it, then leave. But I don't want you to leave. I don't want anyone to leave. So I may have mispoken to some extent. What I am saying is that I enjoyed the beneifts the game was designed to give those that put in the time. If the devs change that, then I will either conform to those changes, or, as you stated, go somewhere else if I don't like it. But, in reality, I will simply conform to the changes. Because, as I stated in my previous posts, I like PVP on an even playing field. I just ALSO liked when I could see the tangible effects of the long gear and skill grind that I went through, in the form of me "facerolling" lesser geared/skilled players.

 

Why can't I enjoy both? And if I do enjoy both, why does that make me a bad person?

 

(As a side note, I regret using the word "facerolling" in the title of this thread; I think it gave an unwanted tone to my OP that was not my intention)

Edited by BalphoWan
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I wanna bully people and no one can do anything about it so na na na and I wanna do it cuz I was bullied..gives me a purpose.

 

 

Ya, everyone knows you should be able to pick on the new guy. It's like one of the first rules of being an adolescent. Hell they even have made movies about it. A kid goes to new school, and you're like the guy that won't accept him cuz he's new, trips him in the cafeteria, steals his pencils. We get it.

Edited by MotorCityMan
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To MotorCityMan:

 

Again, please read all of my posts. I don't want to bully anyone. I have repeatedly stated that I do not go after players in WZ's based on their gear or skill level. I choose my targets strategically based on the WZ and the circumstances speific to that match. And I have never griefed players in open world PVP. I simply enjoy when I go up against a willing opponent in PVP and "faceroll" them. It makes me feel like the time I took to develop whatever PVP skills I have and to acquire my PVP gear was not spent in vain.

 

And you are a perfect example of what I am tlaking about. So please, tell me why I should feel bad about enjoying that? Should I run away from lesser geared players in WZ's so that I don't hurt their feelings, in protest of what I should believe is an unfair system put in place by the devs? Or maybe I should just take a dive and let them beat me so everything is fair? CAN SOMEONE PLEASE JUST TELL ME WHAT IS WRONG WITH ENJOYING THE PVP PARADIGM THAT WAS INSTITUTED BY THE DEVS? Why does that make me a bully in your eyes?

Edited by BalphoWan
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You should not feel bad. It is your choice to feel good about face rolling newer players. That is your choice. I had three 50s top geared characters. I like having more balance and don't mind chasing after another carrot. However I just want clarity, because I seem to be having the same experience in top pve gear and same level pvp gear. Right now it's a cluster. If I just need to run ops only to be geared for warzones, let us know. I'll just buy medpacks instead of wasting comms on pvp gear.

 

I want more balance but this whole experience is mind numbing.

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