I wonder if the fools at bioware even played Kotor 2. I doubt it, they probably view playing it as blasphemy, I mean, judging from how they have tried to portray kreia, they probability even refused to read the wookiepedia article.

Still, KOTOR is a very different game to KOTOR 2, its very much traditional while Obsidian attempted to explore more controversial, radical themes - and I'm not convinced BioWare understand that and are properly portraying it in their works. Drew's Revan for example completely bypassed the broken, morally destitute condition of the Jedi and the Republic after the Jedi Civil War which really did have an ominous shadow hanging over it.

And now I feel they are attempting to simplify and categorize Kreia's character, it can't be done BioWare, even Obsidian couldn't do it! Kreia is a work of art, she cannot be contained!

...hopefully this 'entity' will not be explored and we can pretend she is someone else.

...hopefully this 'entity' will not be explored and we can pretend she is someone else.

We could do that (and I wouldn't have a problem with it), but then a story would have to be formed to explain the identity of 'The Entity'. But whatevs.

I think Bioware should just leave KOTOR 2 alone. So far anything KOTOR 2 in TOR has not been very good.

Lol, I think there's likely definitely a rivalry between BioWare and Obsidian, but perhaps not that much.

 

Still, KOTOR is a very different game to KOTOR 2, its very much traditional while Obsidian attempted to explore more controversial, radical themes - and I'm not convinced BioWare understand that and are properly portraying it in their works. Drew's Revan for example completely bypassed the broken, morally destitute condition of the Jedi and the Republic after the Jedi Civil War which really did have an ominous shadow hanging over it.

 

And now I feel they are attempting to simplify and categorize Kreia's character, it can't be done BioWare, even Obsidian couldn't do it! Kreia is a work of art, she cannot be contained!

 

...hopefully this 'entity' will not be explored and we can pretend she is someone else.

There's definitely a great writing team over at Obsidian, particularly the guys who came over from the now-defunct Black Isle Studios. They create very complex, interesting characters. Sometimes I feel like BioWare hasn't been creating the interesting characters in TOR that I've seen in their other works, such as Mass Effect. I realize that the writing teams are distinct, but the level of quality should be consistent.

Many of the major NPCs in the game can sometimes start to feel cliched. Perhaps its the sheer volume of content in TOR, but after a while it all starts to blur together.

Can the OP just put the word *SPOILER* in this title cause I ain't using spoiler tags...

 

Anyway, I'm an wholly against the notion that the Entity is Kreia - mainly because I realise that BioWare are just going to do an epically poor job of portraying her and clearly do not understand her. It seems obvious that they interpreted her as an evil, dark side witch who just wanted revenge on everything, including the Force. And probably believe that for that reason she would become some sort of dark side entity and support the Emperor in his destruction of the universe.

 

How very wrong they are:

 

 

1. Traya as hardly a darksider - in fact you could argue that she was redeemed by the time of her death. She was explicitly clear that to embrace either the light or the dark was to enslave yourself to flawed teachings, and instead encouraged a usage of both. If anything she was grey.
    
    
   
2. Traya wanted to end the Force partly because it controlled people fates, but also because in exerting its will countless lives were lost, she wanted to preserve life. So if she knew of the Emperor's plans to commit genocide on a galactic scale she would hate every bone in his body.
   

But she could be lying when she was released, since she did that a lot in KOTOR2.

THANK YOU!!!!!!

That's what I've been saying! She wanted the force gone, yes, but she hated the idea of Mass extinction, and thus she would hate the emperors being completely.

This and the fact that the emperor is the strongest Dark Side user at the time, she would think of him as a fool, following the darkness so blindly, with the sole purpose of gaining unimaginable power.

 

I wonder if the fools at bioware even played Kotor 2. I doubt it, they probably view playing it as blasphemy, I mean, judging from how they have tried to portray kreia, they probability even refused to read the wookiepedia article.

But thats what im saying.... we might not like it.. but its how Bioware did go about it.

Many of the major NPCs in the game can sometimes start to feel cliched. Perhaps its the sheer volume of content in TOR, but after a while it all starts to blur together.

I for one, would like to see more exploration of Satele Shan. And I think they should have perhaps injected a little bit of 'Bastila' into her. Come to think of it the NPCs in SWTOR just aren't as good as those in KOTOR and KOTOR 2 whcih really were 1st class.

But she could be lying when she was released, since she did that a lot in KOTOR2.

Come on, Traya didn't lie that much, not that much at all. And you can tell when she is telling the truth. And lying about her entire personality? About the entire point of KOTOR 2? That would just suck. If Traya really does want the galaxy to die, then KOTOR 2 would never have happened!

Im pretty sure its obvious she didnt want them to die when she Back stabbed Nihilus, persuading him via Tobin that if he went to Telos IV he would feed on many jedi, when in fact only Atris was there.... For any who dont know, she realised if he tried to feed on the World he would die of Starvation, and his threat would be ended once and for all.. But he had to go through Citadel Station, and thats where Trayas plan failed, as the exile would not allow it to fall..

If she really did want the Galaxy destroyed, she would have just let him carry on unabated.

But thats what im saying.... we might not like it.. but its how Bioware did go about it.

"Then that is a future we must accept."

If she really did want the Galaxy destroyed, she would have just let him carry on unabated.

Come on, Traya didn't lie that much, not that much at all. And you can tell when she is telling the truth. And lying about her entire personality? About the entire point of KOTOR 2? That would just suck. If Traya really does want the galaxy to die, then KOTOR 2 would never have happened!

Yes she lied a lot.

Think of it, she was facing the Emperor's Wrath and a Dark Council member. It would not be wise to tell them she's against the Emperor.

Yes she lied a lot.

 

Think of it, she was facing the Emperor's Wrath and a Dark Council member. It would not be wise to tell them she's against the Emperor.

She never lied to the exile. It was all half truths, tell her something, but don't tell her the other half of it...

I'm not sure you understand what the entity is. The Wrath is not a scholar like Knox, he could not destroy her through the force, and her power would be far superior to Vowran. He could do nothing against her even if he knew how.

Come on, Traya didn't lie that much, not that much at all. And you can tell when she is telling the truth. And lying about her entire personality? About the entire point of KOTOR 2? That would just suck. If Traya really does want the galaxy to die, then KOTOR 2 would never have happened!

Darth Traya lied all the time. sure much of her lies where half truths but she very much lied and mislead. it SHOCKS me how many people take what this DARK LORD OF THE SITH says as undisputed fact. Kreia is both a Sith Lord with an adgenda (and all that entails) and a very human (and thus falliable) character. you need to consider two things about everything she says.

1: She could damn well be lieing. or at least not telling the whole truth.

2: she may also well be WRONG.

as for her status if she appers in the MMO. 300 years is a looooong time. I've changed a lot over the past 10 years. I can imagine 300 years might impact me

She never lied to the exile. It was all half truths, tell her something, but don't tell her the other half of it...

 

 

I'm not sure you understand what the entity is. The Wrath is not a scholar like Knox, he could not destroy her through the force, and her power would be far superior to Vowran. He could do nothing against her even if he knew how.

She did quite a lot, and she likes the Exile, but does she like the Emperor's Wrath or Vowrawn? No.

Since Baras could imprison her, the Wrath might have some way as well, and they would tell the Council about it, they would go against Darth Traya.

Darth Traya lied all the time. sure much of her lies where half truths but she very much lied and mislead. it SHOCKS me how many people take what this DARK LORD OF THE SITH says as undisputed fact. Kreia is both a Sith Lord with an adgenda (and all that entails) and a very human (and thus falliable) character. you need to consider two things about everything she says.

 

1: She could damn well be lieing. or at least not telling the whole truth.

2: she may also well be WRONG.

 

 

as for her status if she appers in the MMO. 300 years is a looooong time. I've changed a lot over the past 10 years. I can imagine 300 years might impact me

And you need to consider two things.

An "Entity" is not a human, its a force spirit. She would not have aged beyond what she looked like at the time of her death.

Kreia knew more about what she said than anyone, she had experienced both sides and foresaw so much. She swore at the Trayus core that she was telling nothing but the truth.

Hell, anyone who tells a Paragon of Light side energy that they were once a sith, is quite obviously mostly telling the truth.

Darth Traya did only have one hand, the entity has both hands. Maybe she is someone else? What about Atris?

Well, Obi-Wan's Force Spirit isn't cut in half and Vader's not burnt nor is lacking limbs.

And you need to consider two things.

An "Entity" is not a human, its a force spirit. She would not have aged beyond what she looked like at the time of her death.

 

Kreia knew more about what she said than anyone, she had experienced both sides and foresaw so much. She swore at the Trayus core that she was telling nothing but the truth.

Hell, anyone who tells a Paragon of Light side energy that they were once a sith, is quite obviously mostly telling the truth.

As regard as lying, she could simply be doing it in SWTOR: perhaps she lied to the Warrior to get released, perhaps she had "plans" for the Emperor, trying to manipulate him (if you argue "then she wasn't having success, since Vitiate's intentions are not at all like the ones of the Kreia we know", she may simply have failed at manipulating him, maybe even because of the interference of Baras: not a reason not to keep trying to manipulate the Emperor, since if she didn't even try, Vitiate would have carried out his own will anyway, while if she managed to gain control over him, she may have used him to do her bidding, looking for ways to wipe out the Force while preserving life).

Also, while a Force Ghost doesn't age, it doesn't mean it cannot change opinions with time: maybe she was influenced by the Emperor himself, instead of the contrary, and her own ideals changed.

Thanks a ton for the respect you have shown for those of us who have not finished that story by using those spoiler tags in this thread.

 

That would have been cool to work out on my own when I got to it.

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

Actually the more I think about it, Kreia/Traya hated how everything was manipulated by the Force. What she possibly saw in the Emperor was someone who's actually risen above and could manipulate the force freely.

Considering that she willingly sacrificied so much of herself for the Exile oh so long ago just to prove points and have incredible powers of foretelling, I wouldn't be surprised that she allowed herself to be captured/manipulated by other Sith like the Emperor and Darth Baras. She clearly knows how to play the long game in view and would undergo all kinds of torment to finally get to her goal.

Even so, I still have doubts that the Entity is Traya and would hope it could be cleared up eventually

The reason Kreia despised the Force was not that it manipulated people. What she despised was that it manipulated people into playing a pointless game of Light and Dark that never ended, no matter how many billions of sentients were sacrificed. She loved the exile because she was the only one truly immune to the Force's will, and could (if her plan worked) finally put an end to the game.

Of course, this was quite possibly an elaborate ruse in order to mold the Exile into the perfect Jedi (at least from Kreia's perspective), so that she could go into the Unknown Regions to follow Revan and defeat the reformed Sith Empire.

Regardless of what her plans were, she still despised the Force, and if she knew what kind of abomination the Emperor truly was, she would hate him with her entire being, since the Emperor represents the aspect of the Force she hates the most: the uncaring manipulator who would sacrifice every living being in the galaxy (or even universe) for its own ends. She could have changed in 300 years, if her essence had managed to survive her death, but there's no way she did that much of a 180. Also, I honestly can't believe that she survived her death at Malachor.

Generally speaking, the only people who become Force ghosts are Jedi Masters who are at peace with the universe, or Dark Jedi / Sith who have unfinished business. Kreia, I felt, was neither of those. Her sole raison d'etre was the Exile, and only through her death would the Exile's training be complete. On top of that, she struck me as the type who would rather die than willingly become One With the Force.

As I see it, the Dark Side Entity has to be someone other than Kreia, or else her entire character would have been butchered.

As I see it, the Dark Side Entity has to be someone other than Kreia, or else her entire character would have been butchered.

Indeed. I couldn't agree more.

Actually the more I think about it, Kreia/Traya hated how everything was manipulated by the Force. What she possibly saw in the Emperor was someone who's actually risen above and could manipulate the force freely.

The Entity's character is just incompatible with Kreia and the sooner they erase any connection the better.

 

As I see it, the Dark Side Entity has to be someone other than Kreia, or else her entire character would have been butchered.

No, it fit her character well, she would be stupid to say "I hate your emperor" before the Wrath and a Dark Council member.

No, it fit her character well, she would be stupid to say "I hate your emperor" before the Wrath and a Dark Council member.