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Terror from Beyond Hard Mode DPS Requirements - Your thoughts on how much


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What DPS requirement do you think is required going in to TfB HM?

 

I think 1450, this is fully class buffed, unstimed, no adrenal and no power clicky relic.

 

With stim but no adrenal/relic - 1550-1600.

 

Would others agree with this?

Edited by Mission_dj
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So you would take someone in who can only put out 1000 DPS on a dummy?

 

You need to have people who can put out a certain amount on a dummy going in, and then learn the mechanics.

 

You cant have someone putting out a 1000 and go in and learn mechanics and wonder why you are failing.

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The dummy is not an operations boss..

 

I would still never, ever, ask for a persons dps parse from a dummy as proof they are able to do an operation.

 

How would you measure healers and tanks like that on the same scale? Being good at those roles mean much more than having certain stats or whatever arbitrary measurement you could come up with.

 

Basically.. At some point someones gear will be good enough to do 1500dps while banging their face on the keyboard, and they still wouldn't be able to kill anything in an operation..

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I think it is fair to set a lower bound on someone's DPS for HM TfB. It is effectively the same as checking someone's gear.

 

For instance, I doubt many would be willing to take a fresh 50 or someone in just recruit gear through HM TfB. From a DPS perspective, if you can't do X,XXX standing still hitting a dummy, there is no way you would be able to significantly contribute to the operations group. If I had to guess, I think the OP post of 1,450 is a little high. For instance, there may have been no armor debuff on the dummy, which is less likely to happen in a real operation.

 

However, as others have pointed out just even if someone is able to do 1,800 on the Ops dummy, they may not be capable to doing HM TfB. Thus, if you want to set a DPS floor that is fine, but that does not ensure success no matter what floor you set. Still, it should be one of many factors you consider.

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If I had to guess, I think the OP post of 1,450 is a little high. For instance, there may have been no armor debuff on the dummy, which is less likely to happen in a real operation.

 

Thank you. This is the sort of thing I'm looking for.

 

I'm not worried about how good the player is, how good is awareness/movement/etc, that can be addressed. I'm worried about going in with not enough DPS, so need to plan the average needed in order to have a group that is able to actually kill things.

 

Hence, I need a good idea of DPS required in order to progress.

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Situational awareness is important, however, before you even test this you need to make sure the people playing their DPS role can in fact DPS to a certain level. This is where the ops dummy comes in. It provides everyone with a base comparison for their DPS. Yes the DPS values will change from boss to boss due to mechanics, but it gives you an idea of what that person is capable of. If the person can only pull 1,000 - 1,200 DPS on an operations dummy then they are either under geared, or they do not know how to play their class.

 

In my raid I expect at least 1,500+ DPS on the operations dummy from a geared/optimized player. If the character is lesser geared you would need to take that into account.

Edited by RattyRattail
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In my raid I expect at least 1,500+ DPS on the operations dummy from a geared/optimized player. If the character is lesser geared you would need to take that into account.

 

Would that be stimmed or unstimmed on the dummy? Use of Adrenal/Clicky relic allowed?

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As a long time raid leader I have to concur with most people in this thread:

 

Raid awareness is far superior to raw numbers and dummy dps parses are meaningless with respect to dps needed on a boss.

 

 

Having said that, my cut off point is 1200dps on an actual boss fight. In my experience, columi geared players can hit 700dps by facerolling (i.e. accidental dps) whilst BiS BH / campaign geared players tend to faceroll around the 1000dps mark. What I mean by this is that if a player has no understanding of rotations, resource management etc they can generally still manage 1000dps in full BH gear. From that point on its all about player skill (we have numerous people in my guild in full BH gear who only manage 1000dps....they are simply casuals)

 

So, I set a cut off as 1200 because if someone can hit 1200dps in an actual raid then it shows that they've at least started to work on rotation and raid awareness. Once someone has started putting in the effort it means that I, as a raid leader, know that the person is willing and capable of learning. Most people are simply too lazy so they don't learn and wont accept advice, but if one of my members takes the initiative themselves then I'm more than happy to give them a chance and help them out.

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Well if some 1 can't nail there rotation on a dummy they can't do it in a raid ...

I'm gm of FF and do even interview players if they do not

Hit 1400 for troopers and 1600 for other classes ! It's all doable

With some research and work on your class.

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As a long time raid leader I have to concur with most people in this thread:

 

Raid awareness is far superior to raw numbers and dummy dps parses are meaningless with respect to dps needed on a boss.

 

 

Having said that, my cut off point is 1200dps on an actual boss fight. In my experience, columi geared players can hit 700dps by facerolling (i.e. accidental dps) whilst BiS BH / campaign geared players tend to faceroll around the 1000dps mark. What I mean by this is that if a player has no understanding of rotations, resource management etc they can generally still manage 1000dps in full BH gear. From that point on its all about player skill (we have numerous people in my guild in full BH gear who only manage 1000dps....they are simply casuals)

 

So, I set a cut off as 1200 because if someone can hit 1200dps in an actual raid then it shows that they've at least started to work on rotation and raid awareness. Once someone has started putting in the effort it means that I, as a raid leader, know that the person is willing and capable of learning. Most people are simply too lazy so they don't learn and wont accept advice, but if one of my members takes the initiative themselves then I'm more than happy to give them a chance and help them out.

 

You pretty much beat me to it. Pure numbers are meaningless. As someone who leads groups often I would much rather have the player that has situational awareness down, knows the encounters or learns the mechanics quickly and hows how to get the best out of their class and spec than someone who only has good gear and uses it as a crutch.

 

Five reasons for this:

 

1) Gear can be improved. It's not hard to help someone gear up and if that player is already a good player then that player's potential damage/healing/tanking is already going to be pretty high for their gear level anyway.

 

2) Saying you need XDPS for this fight doesn't tell me anything about a player's skill. It just tells me that they can hit a stationary target with a reasonable competence.

 

3) Putting gear and parses on dummies above actual skill is just going to turn the game into WoW where you will never raid if you don't already massively outgear the content.

 

4) Seeing someone post a dummy parse proves nothing. There is no demonstration as to if they have what it takes to go through each encounter. I can quite easily go up to a dummy and work on posting my highest possible parse but does that show an Op leader if I'm any good or not?

 

5) That one player you turned down because his gear was a little suboptimal or because he just needs a bit of practise at the actual fights may well one day turn into a very good raider with the right people to show him/her the encounters and the right people to help them.

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That's not what OP is really asking though. Don't get me wrong I completely agree dpsing is about much more than numbers output, you have awareness, utility etc etc. However gear and ability to perform your rotations etc does matter, and the OP is simply asking what's the baseline for dps, assuming near perfect execution of mechanics.

 

My guess is about 1300-1400 on a Operation dummy on fleet. Generally the dps requirements arnt very harsh if mechanics are executed properly, however having higher dps can make fights easier, such as well the last 3 bosses.

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BW said the TFB HM requirements in gear is campaign (BH if you can changes same things)

After that is skill that counts, 1 guild one my server has 3 ops groups, the 1st ops group has the better gear but didnt even push the last boss to half HP on the 2º fase, the 2º ops group has TFB HM on farm for weeks, in general they had less gear, the 3º ops group, well they still on EC HM.

You can have all top gear in the game, and do 2500 dps on dummys, whitout some skill you will not going to do anything pass EC HM if BW continues to improve mecanics on Ops.

Edited by ErosGyne
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I would argue that if a person does bad DPS, the probably don't have the situational awareness/skill that's being discussed in this thread.

 

Note that by bad DPS, I mean someone doing much lower DPS given their current gear. So yeah, I would say a DPS floor is kind of important, especially considering 3 out of the 5 bosses have soft enrages.

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Well if some 1 can't nail there rotation on a dummy they can't do it in a raid ...

I'm gm of FF and do even interview players if they do not

Hit 1400 for troopers and 1600 for other classes ! It's all doable

With some research and work on your class.

 

Why on earth would you have troopers set to a lower standard than everyone else.. you are aware a Vanguard/Powertech has probably the highest single target DPS in the game.For Merc's and commandos in PVE there dps is right up there with any other class. I am a powertech and i haven't done a OPS dummy parser since i became bis(61) but when i was like 2-3 pieces out on a 8 min parse i did 1720 over 8 mins.

 

As far as DPS for TFB i believe i read somewhere you need an average of 1350 may have been 1450 between your dps

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This thread is ridiculous. Of course DPS on a dummy is an important check. If a player can't get at least 1700 over 5 minutes it means they don't know their rotation or aren't geared.

 

In my Ops groups the mercs are both around 1800, the sniper and mara are both over 2000 in 5 minute checks.

 

If I had to find a backup for one of them and the backup sputtered along at 1500 I'd know he wasn't a good player. A good player knows their rotation. Now someone can still get 1800 and stink due to issues of awareness. But Nobody who can't get those kind of numbers doesn't stink.

 

That said our group dps # is by know means premier (we'd need another mara) and we still constantly break content in TFB HM by over dpsing. I'd say the actual requirements for a group is pretty low. Maybe 1600 on dummies. Much more important that they are aware

 

1 of our mercs was dead for almost all of phase 2 of TFB and we still only hit enrage in last couple seconds and killed boss. The only real big DPS check in TFB is kephess's soft enrage and that comes down to how the OPS frames the soft enrage more than anything. Awareness and mediocre dps is enough for the content.

Edited by Hatstandard
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This thread is ridiculous. Of course DPS on a dummy is an important check. If a player can't get at least 1700 over 5 minutes it means they don't know their rotation or aren't geared.

 

In my Ops groups the mercs are both around 1800, the sniper and mara are both over 2000 in 5 minute checks.

 

Dummy rotation means nothing in an actual fight.

Sure I get >1750 DPS on the dummy on my commando but that is by standing still and perfect ammo management.

 

Ops require moving, burst phases and more. Your standing still DPS numbers and rotation mean nothing there.

Someone who just uses the exact rotation in every situation will do less damage than someone who can adapt wether the first does better on the dummy or not.

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This thread is ridiculous. Of course DPS on a dummy is an important check. If a player can't get at least 1700 over 5 minutes it means they don't know their rotation or aren't geared.

 

In my Ops groups the mercs are both around 1800, the sniper and mara are both over 2000 in 5 minute checks.

 

If I had to find a backup for one of them and the backup sputtered along at 1500 I'd know he wasn't a good player. A good player knows their rotation. Now someone can still get 1800 and stink due to issues of awareness. But Nobody who can't get those kind of numbers doesn't stink.

 

That said our group dps # is by know means premier (we'd need another mara) and we still constantly break content in TFB HM by over dpsing. I'd say the actual requirements for a group is pretty low. Maybe 1600 on dummies. Much more important that they are aware

 

1 of our mercs was dead for almost all of phase 2 of TFB and we still only hit enrage in last couple seconds and killed boss. The only real big DPS check in TFB is kephess's soft enrage and that comes down to how the OPS frames the soft enrage more than anything. Awareness and mediocre dps is enough for the content.

 

If you can 1700 on DPS Agent then I would like to see the log :).

 

We all know that Operatives even in Concealment will struggle to do 1700 because their weak sustained DPS and low burst damage.

Edited by EzoEo
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I think that what OP is getting at is that if someone can't pull a DPS of 1000 on dummies, they wont stand a chance in HM TFB, regardless of mechanics.

 

Of course, along the opposite lines, someone with 2000 dps on dummies doesn't give them a free ride to ignore mechanics.

 

I'd say that around 1300-1400 would be about right.

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The operation dummy provides an 'upper bound' on the damage you can do on a single boss. It is a pretty good yardstick for a person's gear. Now a reality check : 2000 dps is 'best of the best', and it's beyond the reach of most raiders. It shouldn't be used as a yardstick.

 

Total HP of boss / enrage timer in seconds = total required DPS. For certain bosses, you need to add a 'burst' requirement as well (e.g. bomber in EC Kephess, Data cores in Operator 9). From my experience, the baseline for TFB HM is 1600 dps on the dummy, translating to around 1400 dps in the field. Lower than that and you'll run into enrage timers, double lightning fields on Dread guard, failing phases in Operator 9, etc.

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I see all these number getting thrown around, never seems to translate into what I do. 8 man HM Terror, 2 minutes to spare, I only did 1200 dps. There is so much down time in that fight. The two melee on the tentacles in the first phase tend to do the same amount of dps, and the tentacles mostly go down at the same rate, so I can't be getting carried too much.

 

16 man HM Terror (and only him, Operator and Kephess we had a tank in DPS gear doing about 500-600 and still one shot them) I'd say that isn't good enough. I'd just love to have some good attempts at him with out bugs or peoples clients crashing or my internet starting to drop packets so I have a reason to push myself.

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