Jump to content

A third force-user discipline: Gray side?


Stenrik

Recommended Posts

Luke rejected the Dark side, and he was one of the few Jedi who could truly become one with the force.

 

And every Jedi from the films has failed to not use their emotions, especially in a fight. One saying that they reject something does not mean they are not using it...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No they don't, and you don't understand what the code is actually trying to say.

 

It means that you should not base decisions on emotions, but rather make decisions when you are at peace and able to look at a situation without emotions clouding the issue.

 

That's because George Lucas didn't like the original Jedi Code. So he had it revised to add the "There is no" parts. I can see what he was trying to do, though. He wanted to make it as stressful on the Jedi as possible, so there would be conflict. Let's face it, by the time the prequels rolled around, the Jedi were mired in their own dogma.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Strip away your emotions is in regards to understanding them, not neglecting or removing them which the latter is impossible. Time to comprehend and have a more positive reaction to them than acting like a teenager who got dumped by his first girlfriend.

 

Pick a side and don't be so fickle.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And every Jedi from the films has failed to not use their emotions, especially in a fight.

 

Yoda seemed pretty peaceful when he was fighting. Other then against Maul, Obi-Wan was not in a rage. Qui Gon wasn't using his emotions.

 

So yeah a lot of Jedi in the movies got into fights and never used their emotions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yoda seemed pretty peaceful when he was fighting. Other then against Maul, Obi-Wan was not in a rage. Qui Gon wasn't using his emotions.

 

So yeah a lot of Jedi in the movies got into fights and never used their emotions.

Yoda had a lot of furrowed brows and angry scowls during his battles...

 

...and he exhibited emotions when he saw Padme after the explosion at the beginning of AOTC. "Seeing you alive brings warm feelings to my heart." BOOM! Code-breaker. Yoda's a Sith. :p

 

The old Code was better; the new one's too open to a rigid, negative interpretation. "No emotion, so... no emotion! At all! Or you're banned from the Jedi!"

 

But really, just about everything the Jedi say in the Saga is open to interpretation. Especially Yoda's teachings in the OT. "Once you start down the dark path"... well, Luke started down it early in ROTJ when he used the Force not for defense, but to attack the Gamorrean guards with some Force Choke action. And he turned out all right. He gave into rage and beat his father's guard down, hacking off a hand in anger. He still pulled back and stayed on the light. And Vader returned to the light, so... yeah. Yoda's wise, but he's not infallible.

 

Cade Skywalker's probably the closest to a 'true' Gray (as opposed to Qui-Gon or Jolee or the Imperial Knights, who just don't follow the same line as the Jedi Order of their era) out there. He'll give into his negative emotions, get all Sith-eyed (mostly used for visual effect in the comics), zap someone with lightning or save someone with his Defib Lightning, then say "Screw you, dark side!" and be back on the light.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Saying that there's no gray is a bit strange, considering Obi-Wan says "only a Sith deals in absolutes". It would make more sense across all G-Canon and EU material if it were "only a Jedi deals in absolutes".

 

In terms of an MMO it makes for a much more engaging story if light and dark is more along the lines of yin and yang. That's how it's presented in SWTOR, and it's needed to form the basis of a convincing dark side storyline. Lucas should have taken pointers from the EU and get away from his boring preachy "light = good, dark = bad" idea, which is self-contradictory in almost every context he mentions it in.

 

Chief example being Darth Vader. If "bringing balance to the Force" means "the absence of the dark side", then why did the chosen one have to fall to the dark side first in order to do so?

Edited by Jenzali
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Saying that there's no gray is a bit strange, considering Obi-Wan says "only a Sith deals in absolutes". It would make more sense across all G-Canon and EU material if it were "only a Jedi deals in absolutes".

 

In terms of an MMO it makes for a much more engaging story if light and dark is more along the lines of yin and yang. That's how it's presented in SWTOR, and it's needed to form the basis of a convincing dark side storyline. Lucas should have taken pointers from the EU and get away from his boring preachy "light = good, dark = bad" idea, which is self-contradictory in almost every context he mentions it in.

 

Chief example being Darth Vader. If "bringing balance to the Force" means "the absence of the dark side", then why did the chosen one have to fall to the dark side first in order to do so?

 

Anakin wasn't suppose to fall to the darkside at all, the fact that he fell gives no indication that he had to go to the darkside. It just so happened that, he completed the prophecy in a different way.

Edited by Wolfninjajedi
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Too bad for Lucas then. My Knight, and in fact my Consular are following the Original Code. And as far as practicality goes, I'm with Kyle Katarn and Mace Windu. Hey, I can kill an evil bad guy and not feel pleasure at it. Or hatred. It's just something that needs to be done. If you KNOW that no prison can hold him, or how extremely dangerous he is, then that's the only practical thing to do. End his existence. Some would say that Mace Windu fell to the dark side when he realized the ONLY way to stop Palpatine was to kill him. I disagree. He simply saw that there was no other option available.

 

In The Shatterpoint Novel, Windu even admits when explaining Vapaad that he loves fighting and the feel of war.

 

So Yes and No I guess..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In The Shatterpoint Novel, Windu even admits when explaining Vapaad that he loves fighting and the feel of war.

 

So Yes and No I guess..

 

That's because Vapaad is an outlet for emotions, tempered by years of training. That said, executing Palpatine was the logical and practical solution. Mace Windu and Kyle Katarn were the only two I've seen that were completely practical in what they did, and showed any kind of common sense. Mace either because of, or in spite of his training, and because he is just a BMF (it even says so on his lightsaber). And Kyle because of all his years as a mercenary/spy, and how he can use both sides equally with no ill effects. He uses any weapon or tool available to achieve victory.

 

But then, so did Obi-Wan when he offed Grievous. lol

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lots of points in here. I think that the Jedi order has changed a lot in its history. At the point of the new republic they teach ppl who are not younglings, and they don't throw away emotions. However they don't let themselves be controlled by them either they love get married and have kids none are frowned upon. Where as in the TOR era the Jedi have a more hardline view on everything.

 

As for grey Jedi I think it depends on your reference. Grey as an MMO since is someone who does what would be considered good and bad acts not aligning themselves with either. The cannon reference to this may be something like the original force users before they were jedi or sith. As Jedi and Sith might be considered polar opposites they are not the only force using groups. so one cant say you cant have a grey area but wither by choosing good acts vs bad acts or rejecting the teachings of jedi or sith and walking your own line there are options available to make a grey area.

 

last but not least we need one for those who are not jedi and are able to walk the line between good and bad/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lots of points in here. I think that the Jedi order has changed a lot in its history. At the point of the new republic they teach ppl who are not younglings, and they don't throw away emotions. However they don't let themselves be controlled by them either they love get married and have kids none are frowned upon. Where as in the TOR era the Jedi have a more hardline view on everything.

 

As for grey Jedi I think it depends on your reference. Grey as an MMO since is someone who does what would be considered good and bad acts not aligning themselves with either. The cannon reference to this may be something like the original force users before they were jedi or sith. As Jedi and Sith might be considered polar opposites they are not the only force using groups. so one cant say you cant have a grey area but wither by choosing good acts vs bad acts or rejecting the teachings of jedi or sith and walking your own line there are options available to make a grey area.

 

last but not least we need one for those who are not jedi and are able to walk the line between good and bad/

 

For the most part, you're correct. However, it's not a case of good vs. bad acts that drives the Grey Jedi. It's doing what is needed. What makes the most sense? What's the practical solution? They aren't governed by the Jedi Order, so they can do what they must.

 

For example: Dass Jennir. Survived Order 66 and the Jedi Purge by becoming a commando. As a Jedi, he was pretty much average in every respect. But as a vigilante and resistance fighter, he really started to shine. He didn't look down on those who used blasters, and often used them himself. He still carried his lightsaber, but only used it when practical. He actually executed two criminals, but didn't let that corrupt him. One was a slaver, and the other was a real twisted son of a ***** that bought a young girl, cooked her up and ate her just because he was rich and could do it. The guy was basically untouchable by the law, so Jennir took the law into his own hands. He rid the galaxy of a twisted sociopath. Is that Dark Side? If so, then the Light would be wrong there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dear Grand Master Luke,

 

I'm an artist.

I know that in order to paint something with substance and form, I need to use both light and shadows. The picture will never work if I leave out either. Light means absolutely nothing without shadows to define the subject, and vice versa.

 

Or look at Taoism, which is a religion I'd thought Lucas drew from a bit. You know those opposing dots? Those dots mean that all light has dark, and all dark has light.

 

I knew Luke was a great jedi but I'm not willing to think he has all the answers.

 

Epic reply.

 

For the record though, Luke never actually claims to have all the answers, in fact he doubts himself quite a lot in the books, generally he's instantly supported by his friends and family or simply feels that he's right and gives it no more thought but still.

 

However, compared to jedi like Revan he still has a somewhat narrow view of the force, probably because he reacted differently after touching the dark side, he's always been a strong supporter of the contaminating dark theory.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Revan was a force user, one of the strongest and on who according to cannon rejected both the Sith and the Jedi. There are MANY examples in the Expanded Universe books of Force users individual and groups that are neither Sith or Jedi.

 

The Dark side as been said is channeled through negitive emotions. Anger, Hate, and Fear. Sith encourage and use these emotions to channel the force. Of course using it in such a way will magnify those emotions and corrupt a person.

 

The Light side chooses to channel the force only through peace, very buddah. They do so not to reject all emotion (Luke Skywalker gets married, has kids, feels love) but recognizing that using emotion to channel the force magnifies that emotion, makes it stronger. And emotions can always cloud judgment.

 

The other force users/groups out their just use the force, in some unique ways. They don't worry about emotion or light/dark. Light and Dark is almost an exclusive Sith/Jedi idea. To them there is just the Force. You might be a good person you might be a bad but its all on you what you do. There is just the Force.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

However, it's not a case of good vs. bad acts that drives the Grey Jedi. It's doing what is needed. What makes the most sense? What's the practical solution? They aren't governed by the Jedi Order, so they can do what they must.

 

What i was trying to get over is it really depends on how BIOWARE wants to take the term grey. because there is grey in an MMO term which is neither good or bad. however in starwars terms that would be a force user who dosent ally themselves with wither jedi or sith.

 

either one would be implemented the same way but it all comes down to a "certain point of view"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This whole C-Canon and G-Canon thing is tiresome. It's all written and part of the same universe. People need to learn to start coming up with compromises that use everything as a whole rather than dismissing things as 'lesser canon.' To not compromise and pick and choose what is true is way too similar to religious fundamentalists.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This whole C-Canon and G-Canon thing is tiresome. It's all written and part of the same universe. People need to learn to start coming up with compromises that use everything as a whole rather than dismissing things as 'lesser canon.' To not compromise and pick and choose what is true is way too similar to religious fundamentalists.

 

The thing about this is the Canon system is set up to be as uncompromising as possible so you don't end up in a Star Trek situation with a ton of alternate realities. There's only one alternate reality in the Star Wars continuity, and that's made up of the stuff that takes place before, after and during the movies that isn't G-Canon.

 

Its like this, George Lucas considers the movies (and increasingly TCW TV show) to be it, and nothing else. The books, games and comics (and technically TCW) that take place all happened, they just happened in a different "universe" than the movies. As far as the G-Canon universe is concerned, the series ended with the movies, Luke is the last of the Jedi and Palps never returned as a clone yadda yadda yadda. This allows for a very strict system of continuity to be in place with is both a huge strength and pretty large weakness as far as Canon goes because it allows a very narrow interpretation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The thing about this is the Canon system is set up to be as uncompromising as possible so you don't end up in a Star Trek situation with a ton of alternate realities. There's only one alternate reality in the Star Wars continuity, and that's made up of the stuff that takes place before, after and during the movies that isn't G-Canon.

 

Its like this, George Lucas considers the movies (and increasingly TCW TV show) to be it, and nothing else. The books, games and comics (and technically TCW) that take place all happened, they just happened in a different "universe" than the movies. As far as the G-Canon universe is concerned, the series ended with the movies, Luke is the last of the Jedi and Palps never returned as a clone yadda yadda yadda. This allows for a very strict system of continuity to be in place with is both a huge strength and pretty large weakness as far as Canon goes because it allows a very narrow interpretation.

 

Exactly. You sir are correct.

 

A clone of Palpatine completely ruined the end of ROTJ and the whole Star Wars saga.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What i was trying to get over is it really depends on how BIOWARE wants to take the term grey. because there is grey in an MMO term which is neither good or bad. however in starwars terms that would be a force user who dosent ally themselves with wither jedi or sith.

 

either one would be implemented the same way but it all comes down to a "certain point of view"

 

Ok, let my clarify my previous statement as far as TOR goes. If you want to run your Jedi grey here, you can still be light side, but you will have to make Dark Side choices as well if they're more practical than the Light Side decisions. Personally, I went with the WWKD philosophy when running my Knight.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"There is no room for compromise. We walk the path of the light side, or we fall into darkness. There is no gray area, Ben."

~ Jedi Grand Master Luke Skywalker (P. 187 FotJ, Book II: Omen)

 

*Taken from ProfessorWalsh's signature*

 

"The so-called gray Jedi have been with us since the beginning. Although they do not break with the Jedi orthodoxy concerning the dark side, they bristle when asked to take orders from the Council. Gray Jedi make compromises, cut corners, and hide their actions from scrutiny, all under the assumption that their experience makes them authorities on policy. They are mavericks who are difficult to control, but can be valued members of the Order after they have been persuaded to follow the established hierarchy."

―Restelly Quist, Jedi Chief Librarian following the New Sith Wars

 

 

 

A definition for "true Gray Jedi" that appeared in the Jedi Academy Training Manual described them as those who did not belong to any Force-based organization and who explored both the light and the dark sides of the Force without becoming corrupted by the dark side. Despite this, it was also stated in the Jedi Academy Training Manual that the New Jedi Order considered the entire Force tradition of the Jensaarai to be Gray. Additionally, the Imperial Knights were confirmed to have been considered as Gray by the New Jedi Order in Star Wars: Legacy 0 and Star Wars: Legacy 0½, and the Voss Mystics were verified to have been Gray in the "Creating Worlds"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"The so-called gray Jedi have been with us since the beginning. Although they do not break with the Jedi orthodoxy concerning the dark side, they bristle when asked to take orders from the Council. Gray Jedi make compromises, cut corners, and hide their actions from scrutiny, all under the assumption that their experience makes them authorities on policy. They are mavericks who are difficult to control, but can be valued members of the Order after they have been persuaded to follow the established hierarchy."

―Restelly Quist, Jedi Chief Librarian following the New Sith Wars

 

 

 

A definition for "true Gray Jedi" that appeared in the Jedi Academy Training Manual described them as those who did not belong to any Force-based organization and who explored both the light and the dark sides of the Force without becoming corrupted by the dark side. Despite this, it was also stated in the Jedi Academy Training Manual that the New Jedi Order considered the entire Force tradition of the Jensaarai to be Gray. Additionally, the Imperial Knights were confirmed to have been considered as Gray by the New Jedi Order in Star Wars: Legacy 0 and Star Wars: Legacy 0½, and the Voss Mystics were verified to have been Gray in the "Creating Worlds"

 

There's no Gray area as far as The Force is concerned. The official "Gray Jedi" (as in non-Fanon) definition is Jedi who disagree with the council but are still completely Light Sided. Luke is right in that there is no gray area where The Force is concerned, you either use the Light Side or the Dark Side, its impossible to use them both at the same time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There's no Gray area as far as The Force is concerned. The official "Gray Jedi" (as in non-Fanon) definition is Jedi who disagree with the council but are still completely Light Sided. Luke is right in that there is no gray area where The Force is concerned, you either use the Light Side or the Dark Side, its impossible to use them both at the same time.

 

Yup those who do normally end up with case of falling to the dark side.

 

Empire foundry spoilers

 

 

It happend to revan he said that he found balance in the force. *Empire players start beating revan* Oh LOOK revan fell to the dark side again *looks at the buff above his health*. Oh i see a buff called "Power of the dark side" instead of oneness of the force.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For example: Dass Jennir. Survived Order 66 and the Jedi Purge by becoming a commando. As a Jedi, he was pretty much average in every respect. But as a vigilante and resistance fighter, he really started to shine. He didn't look down on those who used blasters, and often used them himself. He still carried his lightsaber, but only used it when practical. He actually executed two criminals, but didn't let that corrupt him. One was a slaver, and the other was a real twisted son of a ***** that bought a young girl, cooked her up and ate her just because he was rich and could do it. The guy was basically untouchable by the law, so Jennir took the law into his own hands. He rid the galaxy of a twisted sociopath. Is that Dark Side? If so, then the Light would be wrong there.

 

The "Light Side" response would have been to try and get him to regret his actions, and seek forgiveness.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...