FIRST: This is not advocating that TOR continue to deny addons. This comes from seeing the MANY posts for addons and getting frustrated at the posters for how they ask for something.

#1: Keep in mind that the majority of players will never use addons. Even in WoW, more players just log on and play without a single addon than those that use them.

#2: To the "Then don't use them crowd": There are two things wrong with this argument, though it sounds good in theory. First, is that if addons are added, they will become required for raiding. This is because they're useful and end up helping. No problem there in my mind, just remember this when saying that not everyone has to use them. Second, most folks cite a few core addon needs but forget that if BW allows 3rd party addons, then all shapes and sizes of addons will come in. Many of which I'd bet BW is currently unprepared to deal with. People WILL try to exploit/bot/etc with addons if enabled. They exploit without them too, but its just something that will happen in MMO's. That crowd is very few people compared to the player base but I bring this up because this is something BW will be concerned with.

#3: "A lack of addons will help the bad players stay bad." Some addons can help so much in improving game play (I miss power auras) but my main issue with this argument returns to #1 in a way. Most the rather bad people are going to stay bad and never try to improve and along the same lines, most people concerned with improving will find ways to test it without addons if they have to. The addons are probably the most accurate way to cover this but it will not do anything for those that already don't care about getting told they're fail.

My request here? Look into your argument more when you make it. I use addons in WoW, I would use them if they come to TOR, but be a little more open than just screaming for them and screaming at anyone against you. Maybe there is a compromise that players can make with BW? Maybe we can get them to implement the core things we want into their UI, and continue to improve upon that as time goes on. Of course, this is all a pipe dream as many forum goers are lucky to complete a sentence correctly, but I will continue to dream because this fantasy land of people using their brains to achieve something is a very shiny place.

Second, most folks cite a few core addon needs but forget that if BW allows 3rd party addons, then all shapes and sizes of addons will come in. Many of which I'd bet BW is currently unprepared to deal with.

This is simply not true. People can't make addon's that aren't supported by the game's API. If BW doesn't want a DBM type addon, they simply don't make that info available to the addons. if they want a damage meter style addon, then they CAN make a combat log available.

Right now, we have no addon's because we have no information. Information is the faucet that controls what addon's can do.

The biggest problem with implementing addon's is that it wasn't planned for from the beginning. Re-inventing the client to support addon's will be a monumental undertaking. My guess is we'll be lucky to get just a combat log in the next 3 months.

This is simply not true. People can't make addon's that aren't supported by the game's API. If BW doesn't want a DBM type addon, they simply don't make that info available to the addons. if they want a damage meter style addon, then they CAN make a combat log available.

 

Right now, we have no addon's because we have no information. Information is the faucet that controls what addon's can do.

 

 

The biggest problem with implementing addon's is that it wasn't planned for from the beginning. Re-inventing the client to support addon's will be a monumental undertaking. My guess is we'll be lucky to get just a combat log in the next 3 months.

It's true that BW will be able to try to limit what is available to the addon devs, but if you've watched the history of WoW addons, there are still always addons that provide more than was intended and a change had to be made to break the addon. These are few compared to the total, but I just think BW is not ready to deal with these types of issues yet and they have to be included when considering allowing addons.

History has shown that game mods have extended a game's life well beyond the expiration date. Prove me wrong.

Huh? Read my post, then reply. I never countered against addons, even said I would use them. I advocated informed arguments. Next.

The thing about addons is that they usual indicate were the current game is limited.

Lets face it there are always going to be bits overlooked, or the developers just don't have the time for, as the game is simply vast.

Addons allow for people to patch things up, and can give the developer hints of what is needed.

Case in point, Cata introduced visual cues when abilities proced. Something that had been previous made available for power aura.

Agro meters were also added after omen was available.

So addons can aid the development process, though I'll admit they also give a huge headache.

I have learnt to live without mouse over heals, but the Raid frames/party frames still cause an issue with me.

Part of the problem is that in a party my icon/health bar is not lined up next to the rest of the group. This may not seem like much, but it is a cause of death for healers. In healer mode my eyes are usually fixed on the party health and often miss my own. So now my eyes are split between my health and the parties, and I may miss that nasty fire I'm standing in. You can use ops frames that bundle you with the rest of the party, but the debuff icons are so small that you can't see vital debuffs that have to be removed.

Ok you could put this down as L2P, and I can still do the healing gig, but it does leave me a bit frazzled at the end of a fight and it should be the boss that makes me frazzled not squinting at the interface.

Now a few UI options could fix this, but these are niche concerns and there is no doubt a lot of work to be done patching the whole game and expanding content. Allowing addons allow for individuals to take on these niche problems far quicker that if left for the developer.

 

#1: Keep in mind that the majority of players will never use addons. Even in WoW, more players just log on and play without a single addon than those that use them.

Source?

#2... The reason why add-ons seem required is because the default UI is so terrible. This should be a reason for add-ons, not against them.

In reality, add-ons enhance the game for people who want them, and do nothing for people who don't want them. They expose bad UI design, plain and simple. Until the day that a developer can make the perfect UI that suits the tastes of millions of different users, being able to mod your UI is absolutely necessary.

#2... yeah they may be required for higher end raiding... but they aren't required to play the game. Not everyone needs or should be doing higher end raiding. If you're a casual player that's intimidated by all those pesky add-ons, then you probably shouldn't be doing high end raiding anyway.

This is very true, but the argument that "You don't have to use them" is wrong. If added, they are required. This is not a bad thing, as I'd love enrage timers for the heroic bosses and some things like that, but we can't say that using addons is completely optional if added when parts of the game will require them.

This is very true, but the argument that "You don't have to use them" is wrong. If added, they are required. This is not a bad thing, as I'd love enrage timers for the heroic bosses and some things like that, but we can't say that using addons is completely optional if added when parts of the game will require them.

heh.. sorry edited my post and took that out. Didn't want to seem elitist

heh.. sorry edited my post and took that out. Didn't want to seem elitist

Gotcha. And that's all I'm really going for, is avoiding a blind view that so many pro-addon threads are taking, despite the couple people going after me like I'm against addons.

/shrug. Forums will be forums.

FIRST: This is not advocating that TOR continue to deny addons. This comes from seeing the MANY posts for addons and getting frustrated at the posters for how they ask for something.

 

#1: Keep in mind that the majority of players will never use addons. Even in WoW, more players just log on and play without a single addon than those that use them.

 

#2: To the "Then don't use them crowd": There are two things wrong with this argument, though it sounds good in theory. First, is that if addons are added, they will become required for raiding. This is because they're useful and end up helping. No problem there in my mind, just remember this when saying that not everyone has to use them. Second, most folks cite a few core addon needs but forget that if BW allows 3rd party addons, then all shapes and sizes of addons will come in. Many of which I'd bet BW is currently unprepared to deal with. People WILL try to exploit/bot/etc with addons if enabled. They exploit without them too, but its just something that will happen in MMO's. That crowd is very few people compared to the player base but I bring this up because this is something BW will be concerned with.

 

#3: "A lack of addons will help the bad players stay bad." Some addons can help so much in improving game play (I miss power auras) but my main issue with this argument returns to #1 in a way. Most the rather bad people are going to stay bad and never try to improve and along the same lines, most people concerned with improving will find ways to test it without addons if they have to. The addons are probably the most accurate way to cover this but it will not do anything for those that already don't care about getting told they're fail.

 

 

My request here? Look into your argument more when you make it. I use addons in WoW, I would use them if they come to TOR, but be a little more open than just screaming for them and screaming at anyone against you. Maybe there is a compromise that players can make with BW? Maybe we can get them to implement the core things we want into their UI, and continue to improve upon that as time goes on. Of course, this is all a pipe dream as many forum goers are lucky to complete a sentence correctly, but I will continue to dream because this fantasy land of people using their brains to achieve something is a very shiny place.

#1 speculation, dismissed.

#2 slippery slope fallacy, dismissed

#3 Strawman, no one is making that argument.

Try making some arguments that don't fall into obvious fallacies before requesting that people make informed arguments.

#1 speculation, dismissed.

#2 slippery slope fallacy, dismissed

#3 Strawman, no one is making that argument.

 

Try making some arguments that don't fall into obvious fallacies before requesting that people make informed arguments.

Alright.

#1: Already stated I don't have hard proof, but I want you to prove to me that +5million WoW players use addons. I still believe in my first point but we'll follow court rules and say the point is tossed due to lack of proof. Lets look at the others, shall we?

#2: Fallacy? Raiding guilds all require at least a DBM equivilent, some require more. Allowing addons to TOR will bring similar functions and the same results. Saying players don't have to use addons then requiring them to raid is an invalid argument. (I'm not saying its better for the raiding community. I'm saying the argument itself is invalid)

#3: Check the MANY posts on these forums from people stating the exact thing that a lack of DPS meters and the like will keep bad players hidden and able to stay bad. People are making the argument.

Since I know CMs are reading this thread, I suggest you remove the personal attacks in the user's first post. I stated facts that proved the OP was incorrect (by a wide margin) and called him a fool. I didn't use much more vulgar language, but the OP has a sentence in his original post saying: "Of course, this is all a pipe dream as many forum goers are lucky to complete a sentence correctly, but I will continue to dream because this fantasy land of people using their brains to achieve something is a very shiny place."

So, I can't call someone a fool but the OP can say everyone who disagrees with him is 1) Brain dead 2) He is the only one capable of playing a game without the use of Addons and 3) Forum goers can't complete a sentence correctly.

Again, remove this from his post or close the thread. If you punish some people you must punish them all, we wouldn't want to show favoritism now would we? Thanks

Alright.

 

#1: Already stated I don't have hard proof, but I want you to prove to me that +5million WoW players use addons. I still believe in my first point but we'll follow court rules and say the point is tossed due to lack of proof. Lets look at the others, shall we?

 

#2: Fallacy? Raiding guilds all require at least a DBM equivilent, some require more. Allowing addons to TOR will bring similar functions and the same results. Saying players don't have to use addons then requiring them to raid is an invalid argument. (I'm not saying its better for the raiding community. I'm saying the argument itself is invalid)

 

#3: Check the MANY posts on these forums from people stating the exact thing that a lack of DPS meters and the like will keep bad players hidden and able to stay bad. People are making the argument.

#1 burden of proof fallacy, here we go again. But yes, let's turn this one over for now.

#2 the slippery slope fallacy here consists in you stating that IF addons are added, they WILL (necessarily) become needed for raiding. This is unsubstantiated. Look up the problem of induction if you're thinking about replying "but WoW has shown us [...]".

#3 the argument I see people making, which in wording resembles yours, is that of assigning a motive to the people not wanting addons of wanting to have their "bad" stay hidden. This is different from what you are writing, in that this argument never assumes that bad people want to improve, but merely that they don't want to be criticized by other people. Of course someone who wants to stay bad can do so, but whether he can get away with it or not is another matter.

Since I know CMs are reading this thread, I suggest you remove the personal attacks in the user's first post. I stated facts that proved the OP was incorrect (by a wide margin) and called him a fool. I didn't use much more vulgar language, but the OP has a sentence in his original post saying: "Of course, this is all a pipe dream as many forum goers are lucky to complete a sentence correctly, but I will continue to dream because this fantasy land of people using their brains to achieve something is a very shiny place."

 

So, I can't call someone a fool but the OP can say everyone who disagrees with him is 1) Brain dead 2) He is the only one capable of playing a game without the use of Addons and 3) Forum goers can't complete a sentence correctly.

 

Again, remove this from his post or close the thread. If you punish some people you must punish them all, we wouldn't want to show favoritism now would we? Thanks

How have I attacked all forum goers? You have done a great job arguing your point and putting forth information to back it. The fact that I disagree with the numbers has nothing to do with you doing it intelligently and to a point. I said "many forum goers cannot complete a sentence" which is brought from seeing too many posts with just that. Many posts are a string of words and the phrases "*** wall of text" and "TL;DR" often meet those posts that are complete and thought out. A reply of too long, didn't read is not using one's brain.

You sir, have used yours.

Alright.

 

#1: Already stated I don't have hard proof, but I want you to prove to me that +5million WoW players use addons.

Saying something then asking others to prove you wrong is not a logical argument. I could say "most people use addon's" and it would be just as valid.

#2: Fallacy? Raiding guilds all require at least a DBM equivilent, some require more. Allowing addons to TOR will bring similar functions and the same results. Saying players don't have to use addons then requiring them to raid is an invalid argument. (I'm not saying its better for the raiding community. I'm saying the argument itself is invalid)

First, no one is requiring anyone to raid. No one is requiring anyone to join a guild that requires addon's. If you want to be in those guilds, you follow their rules. So saying that people need addon's to raid is a falacy.

And DBM vs UI tweaks and damage meters are not the same level of addon. Also, yes, Blizzard has made functionality that allowed for gamebreaking addons (IE Healbot that auto healed the lowest health person, the Wrath addon that put red circles on the ground where you shouldn't stand, etc), and they were easy to break. You disable their info stream.

DBM works because there is a WoW API that tells the client when the fight starts and when an ability was used, along with the graphical means to display timers. Without those hooks, DBM doesn't work.

#3: Check the MANY posts on these forums from people stating the exact thing that a lack of DPS meters and the like will keep bad players hidden and able to stay bad. People are making the argument.

People are making this argument, I agree. However, it's a valid argument. Without a damage meter, you have no idea if you wiped due to the guy with awesome gear going AFK for 2 minutes while the guy with bad gear worked his butt off, or if someone is just bad.

The reason we don't have damage meters in-game right now isn't some moral, principled argument, it's that Bioware didn't put them in, and wanted to ship the game before Christmas. For raiding in this game to survive, you'll need 2 things:

1. Content is so easy that it doesn't matter if you can tell if people are bad.

2. A way to tell what you need to improve.

I just want a customizable UI and more action bars which I can place wherever I want.

I'm a lvl 31 Jugg and already I have 3 full bars. I use my left bar for my companion since I constantly have to turn on/off his abilities since it resets each time I zone/fast travel/unsummon. And if I have my abilities here, they're erased each time I expand my companions bar.

And my bars on the right won't stay how I set them either. Any time I log, my relics are automatically removed from my bars as are any other usables/consumables I have set up there.

A customizable UI or an add-on similar to WoWs Bartender would be a godsend.

Saying something then asking others to prove you wrong is not a logical argument. I could say "most people use addon's" and it would be just as valid.

I was just turning things around to show that neither side can prove it one way or the other. Therefor, the argument was tossed.

First, no one is requiring anyone to raid. No one is requiring anyone to join a guild that requires addon's. If you want to be in those guilds, you follow their rules. So saying that people need addon's to raid is a falacy.

 

And DBM vs UI tweaks and damage meters are not the same level of addon. Also, yes, Blizzard has made functionality that allowed for gamebreaking addons (IE Healbot that auto healed the lowest health person, the Wrath addon that put red circles on the ground where you shouldn't stand, etc), and they were easy to break. You disable their info stream.

 

DBM works because there is a WoW API that tells the client when the fight starts and when an ability was used, along with the graphical means to display timers. Without those hooks, DBM doesn't work.

Addons are not required to raid, in my option, but guilds will require them for raiding if the functionality comes out. This feels like to me that we are saying "Give us addons, you don't have to use them! Oh to join with us you need these addons... Have fun with whatever it is you do!"

Also for the "level" of addon API's allowed, I guess we would have to see what TOR allows. Exploiting those APIs would never be a game breaker either, I apologize if it came across that I felt that way, just that it is likely something we need be aware of regardless how constrictive the API's end up being. Just remember that someone will find a way to break it, they always do. Then it will be fixed, such is the way of things.

People are making this argument, I agree. However, it's a valid argument. Without a damage meter, you have no idea if you wiped due to the guy with awesome gear going AFK for 2 minutes while the guy with bad gear worked his butt off, or if someone is just bad.

 

The reason we don't have damage meters in-game right now isn't some moral, principled argument, it's that Bioware didn't put them in, and wanted to ship the game before Christmas. For raiding in this game to survive, you'll need 2 things:

 

1. Content is so easy that it doesn't matter if you can tell if people are bad.

2. A way to tell what you need to improve.

I absolutely agree that it is more the status of BW development that is the lack of these features than our arguments about them. As an earlier poster put up, Curse has over 4,700 addons available. That is one huge giant for BW to bring on board.

Also a very good point that if the content is easy enough to carry bad people without noticing, people will get bored. Some level of this content is needed for those people that just want to play and have some mindless fun, so long as there is plenty above it for everyone else. I mostly feel that the addition of addons will not help these people at all to better their play style.

FIRST: This is not advocating that TOR continue to deny addons. This comes from seeing the MANY posts for addons and getting frustrated at the posters for how they ask for something.

 

#1: Keep in mind that the majority of players will never use addons. Even in WoW, more players just log on and play without a single addon than those that use them.

http://www.curse.com/addons/wow/deadly-boss-mods

http://www.curse.com/addons/wow/heal-bot-continued

http://www.curse.com/addons/wow/omen-threat-meter

http://www.curse.com/addons/wow/auctioneer

20mil downloads for DBM alone no matter how you cut thats a lot of people using DBM

10mil for healbot

9mil for omen

8.8mil Auctioneer

Im not even gonna bother linking the dps meter addons

All i had to do was google the addons my mates and i used while playing wow to get those number, also note that the figures just come curse.com.

People use addons plain simple whether it is a good or bad thing, that i do not know.

http://www.curse.com/addons/wow/deadly-boss-mods

 

http://www.curse.com/addons/wow/heal-bot-continued

 

http://www.curse.com/addons/wow/omen-threat-meter

 

http://www.curse.com/addons/wow/auctioneer

 

20mil downloads for DBM alone no matter how you cut thats a lot of people using DBM

 

10mil for healbot

 

9mil for omen

 

8.8mil Auctioneer

 

Im not even gonna bother linking the dps meter addons

 

All i had to do was google the addons my mates and i used while playing wow to get those number, also note that the figures just come curse.com.

 

People use addons plain simple whether it is a good or bad thing, that i do not know.

Just a heads up, check beyond my OP. We've gone over all this.

I mostly feel that the addition of addons will not help these people at all to better their play style.

I personally don't care about them. I care about me. I want to know if I'M the baddie that wiped the group.

The difference between a bad player and a good player is that the good player wants to get better. Right now, I don't have the tools to better myself beyond maybe going and finding a low level world boss and timing how long it takes for me to kill him while trying different things.

Without a damage meter, we'll be having things like "LFM for Eternity Vault, must be able to kill the First on Dromand kass in 45 seconds while we watch".

Just a heads up, check beyond my OP. We've gone over all this.

I retract my statement i hadnt loaded those posts too busy playin the gaemz

Without a damage meter, we'll be having things like "LFM for Eternity Vault, must be able to kill the First on Dromand kass in 45 seconds while we watch".

I'd pay to see that become a standard for groups

Edit: Check the new Sig

http://www.curse.com/addons/wow/deadly-boss-mods

 

http://www.curse.com/addons/wow/heal-bot-continued

 

http://www.curse.com/addons/wow/omen-threat-meter

 

http://www.curse.com/addons/wow/auctioneer

 

20mil downloads for DBM alone no matter how you cut thats a lot of people using DBM

 

10mil for healbot

 

9mil for omen

 

8.8mil Auctioneer

 

Im not even gonna bother linking the dps meter addons

 

All i had to do was google the addons my mates and i used while playing wow to get those number, also note that the figures just come curse.com.

 

People use addons plain simple whether it is a good or bad thing, that i do not know.

20mil downloads for DBM alone no matter how you cut thats a lot of people using DBM

10mil for healbot

9mil for omen

8.8mil Auctioneer

Are these downloads by all individuals or do those numbers include the ones who redownload it after every patch?

Isn't 20mil more than the subs that WoW has and has ever had?

The fact that you have no clue how these numbers are generated should've been reason enough to not use them.