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Best “Bad” Romance?


Karameck's Avatar


Karameck
02.21.2019 , 02:41 PM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by SteveTheCynic View Post
I know the lines you mean, and yes, you're right, but the line I pointed at is sometimes cited as justification, the false equivalence of "seduced" in the figurative sense that's equivalent to "enticed" (in a non-sexual sense, as it was used in that part of the companion mission), and "seduced" in the more literal sexual sense.

EDIT: what I'm trying to say is that I wasn't rejecting the idea of KD being bisexual(1), but rather that the line cited cannot serve to justify it.

(1) However, see some of my other posts on the subject of Kaliyo for reasons why I'm inclined to think she isn't *attracted* to women, even if she's sleep with them to further Kaliyo's own ends.
Even before your edit I was going to say the same thing.

I think it’s clear there is definelty a lot more nuance to Kaliyo’s sexuality than just a literal reading of her actions, and I agree with your points indicating as much. I think to point to X instance as proof of her attraction misses a larger point of her personality.

My view is ultimately that she’s more pansexual than anything else, I think she’s just a character who prioritizes what she wants from someone above her physical attraction (or lack thereof) to them. I think she’d be with just about anyone if it was advantageous, but it is specifically the agent’s personality and demeanor that draws her in.

IoNonSoEVero's Avatar


IoNonSoEVero
02.22.2019 , 01:49 AM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by Karameck View Post
Even before your edit I was going to say the same thing.

I think it’s clear there is definelty a lot more nuance to Kaliyo’s sexuality than just a literal reading of her actions, and I agree with your points indicating as much. I think to point to X instance as proof of her attraction misses a larger point of her personality.

My view is ultimately that she’s more pansexual than anything else, I think she’s just a character who prioritizes what she wants from someone above her physical attraction (or lack thereof) to them. I think she’d be with just about anyone if it was advantageous, but it is specifically the agent’s personality and demeanor that draws her in.
Yeah, to me it's not one line or one scene, but a lot of Kaliyo's collective content that makes me think she's bi or pan. Much of her interaction with a female agent seems as though it could be read with some nuance.

SteveTheCynic's Avatar


SteveTheCynic
02.23.2019 , 08:56 AM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by Karameck View Post
My view is ultimately that she’s more pansexual than anything else, I think she’s just a character who prioritizes what she wants from someone above her physical attraction (or lack thereof) to them. I think she’d be with just about anyone if it was advantageous, but it is specifically the agent’s personality and demeanor that draws her in.
Hmm. Maybe I'm reading the definitions wrong, but "pansexual" doesn't seem right either.

Ultimately, for someone like Kaliyo, sex is a tool for getting Kaliyo the things that Kaliyo wants. A pleasurable tool, to be sure, but a tool just as much as a blaster or a knife or an insincere kind word is a tool. It isn't, in the end, about love or attraction or whatever, but about a way to lead people on. Until she meets the M!Agent, and realises that here is a person who sees through her and wants what he sees on the inside rather than the act she's always putting on.

But it's reasonable, up to a point, to suspect that it could have unfolded the same way between her and the F!Agent, except by her own admission in KotFE-X. All that stuff about head games is more or less exactly what I'm driving at. Until the M!Agent, *everything* about sex and relationships was head games - just look at the way she talks about her exes - but in that respect the F!Agent doesn't "click" for Kaliyo.

If the creative-control aspect of things had been different during the time the stories were written(1), however, I could easily see Kaliyo having been a [Flirt] catch for both sexes of Agent, or indeed just for the F!Agent, making the IA the only class with two options for the female character.(2)

(1) The influence of Lucasfilm is frequently cited as a reason why none of the 1-50 stories contain any overt homosexual (MM or FF) romances, just hints and teasers.

(2) Maybe. F!Trooper and Elara, anyone?
http://www.swtor.com/r/Hg3sV2
To go to Belsavis, you must go to Belsavis.
> @"Biff.5312" said:
> Exercise your whimsy.

Karameck's Avatar


Karameck
02.23.2019 , 09:16 AM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by SteveTheCynic View Post
Hmm. Maybe I'm reading the definitions wrong, but "pansexual" doesn't seem right either.
Pansexual just means what you're attracted to isn't limited or defined by conventional representation of either gender. So a pansexual person would like Men, women, androgynous individuals, possibly a woman with a beard, or a man with breasts, etc....

Typically bisexual is not understood to cover anything within the spectrum of people that exist, it is a more "mundane" sexuality meant to express an attraction to both, traditionally defined, genders.

If we're being honest a lot of characters in SW would techinically be Pan because we're dealing with different alien races, yada, yada, yada. But like I said, the word is really just to show that the sexual preference isn't bound by traditional concepts of what is considered conventionally attractive, or in alignment with traditional gender standards. My point here is not to get into the weeds or raise a potentially.... complicated issue. I was just making the distinction for Kaliyo because 1) I think she does experience physical attraction (so not one of the more obscure sexuality that claim no physical attraction) 2) But I don't think that attraction is limited by any conventional standards.

The point was mostly just, Kaliyo would be open to anyone, but it is the IA Male who she clicks with in the end.

Quote:
Ultimately, for someone like Kaliyo, sex is a tool for getting Kaliyo the things that Kaliyo wants. A pleasurable tool, to be sure, but a tool just as much as a blaster or a knife or an insincere kind word is a tool. It isn't, in the end, about love or attraction or whatever, but about a way to lead people on. Until she meets the M!Agent, and realises that here is a person who sees through her and wants what he sees on the inside rather than the act she's always putting on.

But it's reasonable, up to a point, to suspect that it could have unfolded the same way between her and the F!Agent, except by her own admission in KotFE-X. All that stuff about head games is more or less exactly what I'm driving at. Until the M!Agent, *everything* about sex and relationships was head games - just look at the way she talks about her exes - but in that respect the F!Agent doesn't "click" for Kaliyo.

If the creative-control aspect of things had been different during the time the stories were written(1), however, I could easily see Kaliyo having been a [Flirt] catch for both sexes of Agent, or indeed just for the F!Agent, making the IA the only class with two options for the female character.(2)
While I retain my impression that she likely has a wide variety of "interests" I do agree that in canon it's the IA Male that she exclusively feels an actual, meaningful, attraction to.

And as pointed out, that's just the approach the writers took, and they could have played it differently if desired, but they didn't, so we have a Kaliyo who officially only ever formed a meaningful bond with IA Male.

Quote:
(1) The influence of Lucasfilm is frequently cited as a reason why none of the 1-50 stories contain any overt homosexual (MM or FF) romances, just hints and teasers.

(2) Maybe. F!Trooper and Elara, anyone?
1) Makes sense, I'm not that bothered by it one way or the other tbh. If I'm being honest I prefer the companions having locked in sexualities (I'm fine with bisexual, homosexual, etc... being one of those options) as opposed to being "player-sexual" because I think it makes them more realistic, fully formed characters, but I understand the direction they took and why (for both Vanilla and after).

2) Maybe.... I think there is something there to work with, but I adore Aric, so it's hard to detach myself from that romance idea.

Goreshaga's Avatar


Goreshaga
02.23.2019 , 12:04 PM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by SteveTheCynic View Post
(2) Maybe. F!Trooper and Elara, anyone?
Dunno about this one.
Maybe, but I guess i consider the ♀Trooper and Elara as working well as close friends, and Aric is too good as a romance for me to consider anyone else for my ♀Trooper.

Akaavi and a ♀Smuggler, i'd have loved to see that though.
Talos for my ♂Nox as well could've been nice (i think my Nox would've been really attracted to his passionate and easy going personnality), and Quinn for a ♂Wrath could've worked as well

Karameck's Avatar


Karameck
02.23.2019 , 04:46 PM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by Goreshaga View Post
Quinn for a ♂Wrath could've worked as well
I've thought this for a while myself.

I could see Quinn as bi or homosexual, he seems to be far more attracted to either your raw power (that sexy sith lord vibe) or your cunning/insight than you physically.

I always thought Quinn would be one of the Vanilla romances that would make the most sense to open up to both genders.

Goreshaga's Avatar


Goreshaga
02.24.2019 , 12:43 PM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by Karameck View Post
I've thought this for a while myself.

I could see Quinn as bi or homosexual, he seems to be far more attracted to either your raw power (that sexy sith lord vibe) or your cunning/insight than you physically.

I always thought Quinn would be one of the Vanilla romances that would make the most sense to open up to both genders.
That's what i think too.

I would probably have opted for Quinn over Vette or Jaesa for my ♂SW, and i think he would've been a better match for him than for my BT3 ♀SW.