As title says, what do you guys expect from 5.5 and forward? Will there be a nerf for Deception? A small buff for Arsenal merc and other classes that were nerfed a bit hard? Will they do some balancing for tanks?

Im just curious, and endless questions are popping up into my head. I still hope that the balance will be good BOTH dps-wise and DCD-wise when the next tier of gear arrives.

As title says, what do you guys expect from 5.5 and forward? Will there be a nerf for Deception? A small buff for Arsenal merc and other classes that were nerfed a bit hard? Will they do some balancing for tanks?

 

Im just curious, and endless questions are popping up into my head. I still hope that the balance will be good BOTH dps-wise and DCD-wise when the next tier of gear arrives.

Lol no buff to arsenal merc pls. Even after nerf theyStill dps pretty hard, and i often see them in r1-3 dps scale on warzones. It is just requires more skill and heat management to play merc.

I expect the nerf cannon still has some ammo in it. Don't worry, once all the numbers are at zero they'll stop.

Or we'll end up healing with every hit instead.....

I expect the nerf cannon still has some ammo in it. Don't worry, once all the numbers are at zero they'll stop.

 

Or we'll end up healing with every hit instead.....

I once saw two sorcs in an arena, a madness and a lightning sorc trying to kill each other. Then the acid came.

more nerfs are incoming.

my bet: Anni and Merc heals. operative heals they will need to rework the class, due to its "slow" heals, but i bet nerf is incoming aswell.

Sawbones/Medicine is almost certainly facing execution. Bioware seems intent on balancing healers around HPS, rather than effective heals, which is a Bad Thing for a class literally designed to overheal. It wouldn't be so bad with some positive tweaks - Underworld Medicine being made an Instant, and the spec being made less susceptible to pushbacks/interrupts in general, for example. But knowing Bioware, they'll go for a straight numbers nerf just like they did Seer/Corruption

To be fair, they initially wanted to change Medicine in 5.4 but backed out of at the last moment. I might be dead wrong, but it does seem like they're giving it some though at least.

To be fair, they initially wanted to change Medicine in 5.4 but backed out of at the last moment. I might be dead wrong, but it does seem like they're giving it some though at least.

Yes, and I greatly appreciate them backing off the spec... for now. But read what Musco said:

Hey folks,

 

As we continued to look at the changes we had planned, supporting data, and player feedback, we have decided that we are not going to be making any changes to Operative and Scoundrel healing in 5.4. Right now, these Disciplines are overperforming in HPS and we do feel that they will need to be nerfed at some point. However, even though their HPS is high, due to the Disciplines lack of burst healing it can be quite challenging to keep players, especially tanks, alive. For that reason we are going to hold off on any broader HPS nerfs until we address the burst healing issues of the Class.

 

We are going to take a look at this for 5.5 and see if that will be the time to make these adjustments. Once we get closer to that update I will let you know what our plans are for Medicine and Sawbones! Thanks everyone.

 

-eric

 

Emphasis added. I just hope they 'address the burst healing' at a sufficient level so that when they do nerf probes, waves, and everything else that makes the class overheal that it's still viable.

Of course, if they do that, they could end up recreating Combat Medic/Bodyguard, and Sawbones/Medicine might lose their identity. A look at HM Healer Ratings shows skilled Sawbones/Medicine healers on par with Seer/Corruption healers (the lower percentile of each shows the Force healers are easier to play - they put up better numbers on the low end), and well behind Combat Medic/Bodyguards at all levels. Really, Bioware just needs to accept that, high HPS or no, Sawbones/Medicine can be left alone, and still be the least-played healer in HM Ops (23%) and with no clear advantage in the hardest content in the game.

Yes, there is the caveat that "not everybody uses Starparse", but I think their sample size of over 1.6 million parses is sufficient for demonstrative purposes.

Per the tiers we have been given, yes i expect more balancing.

I personally feel that this straight numbers game they're playing ignores many, if not most, of the issues people are having balance wise. but hey it's my humble opinion so take it as you will.

On the healer front, I too am horrified as to how they are going to nerf operative heals. Yes the hps looks huge, but if you look at how much of that is effective, you notice a ton of overhealing. probes, wave, cloud, etc; the class is obviously designed such that you have to keep you target's health up rather than letting it drop and healing from there. this is because the class is horrible at spike healing. and as a tank main, i feel fully confident in saying that incoming damage profiles are more likely to be spikey than consistent. especially if i fail to anticipate an incoming hit.

i hope they are actually looking into the lack of burst with any potential incoming nerfs.

Sawbones/Medicine is almost certainly facing execution. Bioware seems intent on balancing healers around HPS, rather than effective heals, which is a Bad Thing for a class literally designed to overheal. It wouldn't be so bad with some positive tweaks - Underworld Medicine being made an Instant, and the spec being made less susceptible to pushbacks/interrupts in general, for example. But knowing Bioware, they'll go for a straight numbers nerf just like they did Seer/Corruption

Despite the fact that they did postpone the nerf to medicine/Sawbones, I am still expecting a tiny buff to a single target heal, accompanied by nasty reductions to all else.

Another poster here said they'll need to rework these healers in order to shoe horn them into their magic target numbers; I agree but I seriously doubt they will do so. More likely they will just reduce everything, save for a minute buff to single target, and call it balanced.

I may well be wrong, and they might do something decent. But all along in this nerf extravaganza we have been watching, Medicine/Sawbones have been the ones I am expecting to receive the harshest treatment in the end.

Despite the fact that they did postpone the nerf to medicine/Sawbones, I am still expecting a tiny buff to a single target heal, accompanied by nasty reductions to all else.

 

Another poster here said they'll need to rework these healers in order to shoe horn them into their magic target numbers; I agree but I seriously doubt they will do so. More likely they will just reduce everything, save for a minute buff to single target, and call it balanced.

 

I may well be wrong, and they might do something decent. But all along in this nerf extravaganza we have been watching, Medicine/Sawbones have been the ones I am expecting to receive the harshest treatment in the end.

Normally I'd agree, but the fact that they decided not to nerf them, even noting that they need a fix for their burst healing, gives me some sliver of hope. Of course it's just possible they didn't get around to it and it's just an excuse, you never really know with Bioware.

As title says, what do you guys expect from 5.5 and forward? Will there be a nerf for Deception? A small buff for Arsenal merc and other classes that were nerfed a bit hard? Will they do some balancing for tanks?

 

Im just curious, and endless questions are popping up into my head. I still hope that the balance will be good BOTH dps-wise and DCD-wise when the next tier of gear arrives.

No nerf for Deception coming, sorry for ya pal. Almost every deception player will tell you that the class itself is its worst enemy. Thing with Deception is that in order to dps properly you have to go through two different rng. Unlike every other class in the game, who resolves around one rng cycle (crit), Deception has another rng cycle called Surging Charge (basically, 50%chance to generate a burst stack every six seconds). Short version is that the whole class is balanced around rng burst, even excellent players will have trouble doing dps if rn-jesus isn't with them. Where an average class will have a 200dps margin of error on an optimal Parse, Deception has like 800-1000. No need to make it worse.

I fully expect an overhaul of Operative's heal and maybe a slight work on defensives ability for powertech and jugg.

The best thing possible would be of course a redone of the tank gearing and ability, in order to make them viable and fun again, and the long deserved utility nerf for the trinity that rules over pvp. But I doubt this will happen

Normally I'd agree, but the fact that they decided not to nerf them, even noting that they need a fix for their burst healing, gives me some sliver of hope. Of course it's just possible they didn't get around to it and it's just an excuse, you never really know with Bioware.

I am, inside, hoping that you are correct, trying to find solace in the fact that they did postpone making any changes.

Perhaps I am just too pessimistic, and thus expect a rather meaningless buff to single target heals along with heavy nerfs to all else.

No nerf for Deception coming, sorry for ya pal. Almost every deception player will tell you that the class itself is its worst enemy. Thing with Deception is that in order to dps properly you have to go through two different rng. Unlike every other class in the game, who resolves around one rng cycle (crit), Deception has another rng cycle called Surging Charge (basically, 50%chance to generate a burst stack every six seconds). Short version is that the whole class is balanced around rng burst, even excellent players will have trouble doing dps if rn-jesus isn't with them. Where an average class will have a 200dps margin of error on an optimal Parse, Deception has like 800-1000. No need to make it worse.

 

I fully expect an overhaul of Operative's heal and maybe a slight work on defensives ability for powertech and jugg.

 

The best thing possible would be of course a redone of the tank gearing and ability, in order to make them viable and fun again, and the long deserved utility nerf for the trinity that rules over pvp. But I doubt this will happen

Still parses over 10.5, and outperforms the sustained spec. Deception should be nerfed and hatred should be buffed. Oh and if you want a comparison AP PT the difference between a good and bad parse for me is about 600 dps (And I can do over 10 K) and still has a 400 dps head start on AP. Oh and deception out performs Pyro by about 300 dps and that's a melee sustained spec. Currently deception outperforms vengeance, pyro and hatred (all of which are supposed to have a higher dps ceiling) and Is currently about 700 dps above concealment, 800 dps above madness, 400 dps above AP, 300 dps above IO and 500 dps above engineering and these spec all are supposed to have about the dps as one another. The only melee burst/ranged sustained spec that does as much deception is carnage which should be nerfed as well.

Still parses over 10.5, and outperforms the sustained spec. Deception should be nerfed and hatred should be buffed. Oh and if you want a comparison AP PT the difference between a good and bad parse for me is about 600 dps (And I can do over 10 K) and still has a 400 dps head start on AP. Oh and deception out performs Pyro by about 300 dps and that's a melee sustained spec. Currently deception outperforms vengeance, pyro and hatred (all of which are supposed to have a higher dps ceiling) and Is currently about 700 dps above concealment, 800 dps above madness, 400 dps above AP, 300 dps above IO and 500 dps above engineering and these spec all are supposed to have about the dps as one another. The only melee burst/ranged sustained spec that does as much deception is carnage which should be nerfed as well.

Well, maybe it's the other classes that needs more of a buff...

I mean, we all know that madness/pyro/hatred/vengeance are underperforming. Carnage was overperforming for what it it and has been nerfed... small changes, brought back the spec in line.

As for parse, I didn't know about this, the dummy parsing never interested me because of it's lack of truth. Nobody will pull out 10.5k dps on a boss fight, even against Nefra. Excellent deception players pull out 10k on Nefra and 9k on other boss like Brontes or Styrak... but again, thats where the «excellent» part comes in imo

Problem now is that when players see a 10.5 parse they think that it is easy to do it and that every deception player parses at this number.

I generally ask them to play the class for themselve in order to see how nearly impossible this is ^^

Still, this game doesn't need more nerf in terms of dps. This kind of thing made in order to keep Operations «challenging» were never good. A lot of spec are way underperforming (lightning, MM, PT in general, hatred, IO merc) in terms of dps.

Again the problem wasn't the dps of an arsenal merc. The problem was the ridiculous utility that came along with it.

Still, the guy in charge of class balance is, as always, completely detached from the whole game, its content and community. «nerf everything and claim that spec to be OP» isn't the way it should be. But this guy failed to bring Hatred back in line, so I doubt we'll see any changes that make sense.

As for parse, I didn't know about this, the dummy parsing never interested me because of it's lack of truth. Nobody will pull out 10.5k dps on a boss fight, even against Nefra. Excellent deception players pull out 10k on Nefra

humm...

http://parsely.io/parser/view/314800/0

http://parsely.io/parser/view/312439/0 - 11k+ dps..yes its a sin deception

ofc its prolly excelent players like u said

Well, maybe it's the other classes that needs more of a buff...

I mean, we all know that madness/pyro/hatred/vengeance are underperforming. Carnage was overperforming for what it it and has been nerfed... small changes, brought back the spec in line.

As for parse, I didn't know about this, the dummy parsing never interested me because of it's lack of truth. Nobody will pull out 10.5k dps on a boss fight, even against Nefra. Excellent deception players pull out 10k on Nefra and 9k on other boss like Brontes or Styrak... but again, thats where the «excellent» part comes in imo

Problem now is that when players see a 10.5 parse they think that it is easy to do it and that every deception player parses at this number.

I generally ask them to play the class for themselve in order to see how nearly impossible this is ^^

Still, this game doesn't need more nerf in terms of dps. This kind of thing made in order to keep Operations «challenging» were never good. A lot of spec are way underperforming (lightning, MM, PT in general, hatred, IO merc) in terms of dps.

Again the problem wasn't the dps of an arsenal merc. The problem was the ridiculous utility that came along with it.

Still, the guy in charge of class balance is, as always, completely detached from the whole game, its content and community. «nerf everything and claim that spec to be OP» isn't the way it should be. But this guy failed to bring Hatred back in line, so I doubt we'll see any changes that make sense.

The reason you look at top end dummy parses is that it gives people an understanding of the optimal capabilities of each spec, yes there are some cheese dps buffs but they come usually with DCD's (reflect, cloak of pain, pyro shield etc). In the current meta according to Bioware output should be melee sustain>melee burst/ranged sustained>ranged burst, so yes when deception and carnage are putting out more damage on a single sustained target then most of the melee sustained specs they are over performing since both specs are burst.

humm...

 

http://parsely.io/parser/view/314800/0

 

http://parsely.io/parser/view/312439/0 - 11k+ dps..yes its a sin deception

 

ofc its prolly excelent players like u said

Love it when you compare a NiM parse with a HM parse too mate

When you look at the HM parse list for Nefra I see 3VG/PT ahead, no assassin.

When you look at the NiM parse, you have one sin at 11k next is a PT with 10k

The only shadow you see in the list next only does 9k, for both NiM and HM

Please next time bring a real comparison

Although I don't know how this guy managed to hit this hard with the same rotation as me '-' guess Surging Charge proc made everything :/

The reason you look at top end dummy parses is that it gives people an understanding of the optimal capabilities of each spec, yes there are some cheese dps buffs but they come usually with DCD's (reflect, cloak of pain, pyro shield etc). In the current meta according to Bioware output should be melee sustain>melee burst/ranged sustained>ranged burst, so yes when deception and carnage are putting out more damage on a single sustained target then most of the melee sustained specs they are over performing since both specs are burst.

I agree with you on this point, BW said this, which is completely understandable although not the smart way imo. My opinion relied on the fact that they would look at class balance with real game experience, which has not been the case sadly. Class balance would have been different if they tried to focus on what a class can do in a PvE/PvP environment... for them, every spec is overperforming when it can clear hard mode from what I can see, judging by the parse made by the class post-nerf. So yeah, if we follow their logic we'll have a nerf for everyone, Deception included. I'm not against a nerf for a specific class if it make sense, problem being that for the moment, no class change has really made sense until now.

But I think I may be overthinking this

Devs have been very silent as of late I hope they don't get sick of the endless q_q and do their job. I generally agree that further nerfs are really not needed at this point, just instead some

1.) minor secondary dps buffs to some of those underperforming melee and ranged sustained specs mentioned.

2.) maybe some slight love thrown concealment/ scrapper's way

3.) a reworking of Dcds and utilities on some classes: Mando/Merc dps: moderate nerf, Op/scoundrel heal: slight buff, PT/Vanguard (all): moderate buff, Sorc/sage dps: slight buff, Jugg/Guardian dps: slight buff; all others: don't screw it up they are fine.

1.) minor secondary dps buffs to some of those underperforming melee and ranged sustained specs mentioned.

2.) maybe some slight love thrown concealment/ scrapper's way

3.) a reworking of Dcds and utilities on some classes: Mando/Merc dps: moderate nerf, Op/scoundrel heal: slight buff, PT/Vanguard (all): moderate buff, Sorc/sage dps: slight buff, Jugg/Guardian dps: slight buff; all others: don't screw it up they are fine.

Here lies the problem today. Buffs have been very scarce, and for the most part didn't bring much or enough.

As for the other part, every class seem to be nerfed until it cannot reach 10k dps, sometimes leading to a class losing way too much.

Furthermore, no news on the utility change, something that have been asked since the start of 5.0

We're almost a year after the launch and we have still no news of it. Guess CM must take too much of their job

Love it when you compare a NiM parse with a HM parse too mate

When you look at the HM parse list for Nefra I see 3VG/PT ahead, no assassin.

When you look at the NiM parse, you have one sin at 11k next is a PT with 10k

The only shadow you see in the list next only does 9k, for both NiM and HM

Please next time bring a real comparison

Although I don't know how this guy managed to hit this hard with the same rotation as me '-' guess Surging Charge proc made everything :/

i was not comparing. i was merely showing it is posible to hit those numbers (hm or nim) - and unfortunalty a large portion of the pve comunity left the game or else we would see even bigger pool with those numbers - and not all players upload their parses to parsely - although i failed to read your post where you were only refering to deception sins

and im rolling a sin deception so challenge accepted

It seems to me that the biggest problem is for damage output Bioware either don't seem to be able to do it correctly or they have had a change of heart but haven't told the player base. As of now the following buffs/nerfs have been poorly executed

Arsenal merc - Over nerfed by about 200-300 dps

Madness sorc - Under buffed by300 -400 dps

Carnage mara - Under nerfed by about 300 dps

Pyro Pt - under buffed by about 250 dps

Hatred sin - under buffed about 300 dps

concealment operative - Over nerfed by200-300 dps

It seems like the only specs they nerfed correctly were engineering/virulence sniper (although technically even this is wrong because apparently virulence is quasi sustained and therefore should be doing less then engi), IO Merc (not counting their failure to improve aoe/dot spread) and lethality operative. Fury mara has also been reasonably buffed.

If Bioware have had a change of heart on their "target dps" they should let their players know. they should also tell the player base what the "target dps" is if they are continuing with the current meta.

Hey folks,

 

..blahblah..SNIP

 

We knew Class changes were a top priority, so we provided insight about how we intended to balance all Classes ahead of next week’s patch. Since we took so long to make changes after the release of KOTET (5.0), we had quite a few big changes to make, and that’s what you’ve been reading the last few weeks. It is going to be rough for some Disciplines as they are way over target, but it is important that we bring them in line. Additionally, we may have missed the mark with some of the changes and if we went too far or not far enough, you can expect to see additional adjustments in the future. Going forward, it is our intent to stay on top of Class balance so changes will be less severe/sweeping than they are in 5.3 and the upcoming 5.4 patch in August.

 

Let's get a little more specific! The following list is not comprehensive, but here is some of the key feedback we have read coming out of the Class change posts:

• Arsenal/Gunnery needed survivability/utility nerfs, not DPS - As we said in the balance thread, we want to get damage targets in line first before we touch too much utility. They did get a slight nerf to survivability in 5.3, and we will monitor both their damage and ability to stay alive going forward.
  
• Corruption/Seer nerfs went too far and may also negatively impact DPS - Admittedly those two Disciplines were substantially overperforming and will receive the most significant nerfs in 5.3. But, we will watch their performance closely and make changes if we’ve gone too far. The same is true of the impact on "Sorc/Sage bubble" for DPS. We’ll change it or give them other defensive options to compensate if needed.
  
• Madness/Balance buffs are nice but they are still Force negative! - Beyond the changes already listed, they are receiving a buff to their Force regeneration to no longer be rotationally negative. We have doubled the effect of Sith Efficacy / Psychic Barrier so that each channel of Force Lightning / Telekinetic Throw will restore 8% of total Force (minus the cost). To be clear, that’s a net of +3 per tick of damage or +12 total Force per channel, not including the ongoing passive Force regeneration that also occurs during the channel.

 

When we start talking about 5.4 changes, we will work to do better in keeping the conversation alive around Class balance. This way we can make sure everyone has a clear understanding of all concerns/feedback going into the update.

 

Thanks everyone!

 

-eric

This is how our Feedback works. The Forum is full of threads about the non-buffed in fact nerved madness sorcs; how underperforming the class is and bios reaction "madness / balance buffs are nice"..... "Corruption/Seer nerfs went too far and may also negatively impact "

LOL BIO ?! *** is wrong with you ?!

and im rolling a sin deception so challenge accepted

If you're on TRE, just come say hi, we'll try it together

It seems to me that the biggest problem is for damage output Bioware either don't seem to be able to do it correctly or they have had a change of heart but haven't told the player base. As of now the following buffs/nerfs have been poorly executed

 

Arsenal merc - Over nerfed by about 200-300 dps

Madness sorc - Under buffed by300 -400 dps

Carnage mara - Under nerfed by about 300 dps

Pyro Pt - under buffed by about 250 dps

Hatred sin - under buffed about 300 dps

concealment operative - Over nerfed by200-300 dps

 

It seems like the only specs they nerfed correctly were engineering/virulence sniper (although technically even this is wrong because apparently virulence is quasi sustained and therefore should be doing less then engi), IO Merc (not counting their failure to improve aoe/dot spread) and lethality operative. Fury mara has also been reasonably buffed.

 

If Bioware have had a change of heart on their "target dps" they should let their players know. they should also tell the player base what the "target dps" is if they are continuing with the current meta.

Well, this is the main issue yeah, they keep throwing in changes without explaining why, without saying what are their target dps, without any explanation on how their testing are made, furthermore we don't hear anything about combat balance, both in PvE and in PvP.

This is how our Feedback works. The Forum is full of threads about the non-buffed in fact nerved madness sorcs; how underperforming the class is and bios reaction "madness / balance buffs are nice"..... "Corruption/Seer nerfs went too far and may also negatively impact "

Yep, they never explain clearly or take the whole feedback into consideration. Numerous time they showed that their only goal was minimum work. Remember this story about the glitch with the Umbara SH ? Just because they didn't want to take the time to make a reactivation cost different than the purchase price.

The main problem being lack of real communication. Don't know about you, but I've seen the class balance guy talk on the forum only once. And it was years ago.

This, and the fact that it took almost a year for the dev team to see that the cxp values were to low to be really enjoyable for the players.... I don't think they play the same game as us, players. They feel very distant from the community and the game. The only guy we hear talking is Musco, who don't know about game mechanics, and Keith, the guy who played the game a little and saw that cxp was more fun when you would receive plenty of it.

This doesn't look promising for the future sadly, if they can't even find where lies the problem within their class balance.

This is how our Feedback works. The Forum is full of threads about the non-buffed in fact nerved madness sorcs; how underperforming the class is and bios reaction "madness / balance buffs are nice"..... "Corruption/Seer nerfs went too far and may also negatively impact "

 

LOL BIO ?! *** is wrong with you ?!

Hey the sage nerfs were the final straw for my vigi guardian days. The healer could no longer spare enough heals to keep the squishy dps alive. After a miserable hypergates where I literally died in the amounts of double digits because I was focused hard, I said I'm done make me skank gear.