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Iokath: Choose Republic or Empire ((Spoiler))

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore > Spoilers
Iokath: Choose Republic or Empire ((Spoiler))

SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
01.06.2018 , 12:56 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by IoNonSoEVero View Post
Looking at the Republic as the faction to support peacekeeping is a bit short-sighted IMHO. During the war against the Eternal Throne they actively supported and appeased Vaylin and Arcann's rule, which meant they supported the oppressor. Jace Malcom pretty much says he's in it for what the Republic can get.

One of the first quests in Coruscant is helping a guy who thinks his wife has been kidnapped and sold into prostitution. She has actually run away, but the premise is that she was captured and taken as a slave, and the local law enforcement shrugs about it. There's another quest where it's mentioned that the Justicars routinely kidnap people and press them into slavery/service as soldiers and go after their families...and that is just on Coruscant, right under the Senate's nose - never mind elsewhere.

The Jedi kidnap children, and the Republic laws give them the right to do so. Their parents have no rights to ever see or contact them again, and the kids know nothing other than what they've been brainwashed by the Jedi to believe. Kidnapping kids and indoctrinating them could be seen as a form of slavery IMHO.

Even though Saresh is out of office during KOTET, you're told that the current government if the Republic is her puppet. The Republic sends a letter after the Saresh incident saying that they privately agree with what you did, but will bash you publicly - they publicly endorse her and her actions. Saresh is also a key figure in the Republic for a long time and she's a lot more corrupt than any Imperial.

The Republic kills those beneath them (they were running the Foundry program that sought to exterminate anyone with Sith heritage, and the Jedi are trained to kill all Sith - Ashara says this straight out). Point being, again, the Empire and Republic aren't different. The key difference is that one helped the Alliance and one did not.

And the Empire *is* already changing - for instance, accepting aliens for training at the Sith Academy, more aliens in positions of power, disavowing the Emperor, the alliance formed by Marr with Satele Shan during SoR, etc. There's nothing on the Republic's end that shows they are making similar progress.
Criminals take slaves. The republic does not. There's a difference there.

I still have no idea where people get the Jedi kidnap children aspect, I've never read it anywhere in the lore/books I've read. What book is this in? That said, we know for a fact the Sith do. That's stated straight out the gate in the Empire side. Raina is in hiding because of it. They also don't care what level of force user you are. "You can move a pebble and nothing more? Well, you're still going, you just won't last long."

Sooo, assuming there's truth to this Jedi stealing kids, Sith do it too. Also, as for how the Jedi operate, lets notice a few things with that. "You've got the force ability! But you're suckie with it! You're no longer a Jedi!" And the person feels bad for not being a Jedi! "Look! I found someone who isn't a sith or a jedi with force powers! Maybe we should train them!" "Well, we don't know..."

So, the game for sure makes no mention of forcing people to be Jedi just because they're force sensitive and no mention of kidnapping.

The Foundry, run by Revan (ex-Sith), who was a little mad to begin with? Which obviously can't be a problem with everyone, as there are PBS not only in the Republic but in the Jedi.

Let's look at that Ashara comment. Made by the padawan who didn't get her Masters lessons. Versus a Jedi Knight class that can get a Pure Blood Sith Sith to change sides.

It's not that Jedi were trained to kill Sith on sight, it's that some of them said "I don't trust sith and **** em all." Which, let's be fair, is a well deserved first thought to go with when it comes to Sith.

Also, I don't recall the letter to the Commander saying "We'll burn you in public, but support you in private." for what was done to Saresh. Was that only if you made a DS choice? Only if you were Empire?

As for the Empire's more aliens in power...yeah...if they have force powers. Yeah, they make good soldiers. That's about it.
"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more...than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so *********** what." - Stephen Fry

Dracofish's Avatar


Dracofish
01.06.2018 , 01:27 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by SithKoriandr View Post

Let's look at that Ashara comment. Made by the padawan who didn't get her Masters lessons. Versus a Jedi Knight class that can get a Pure Blood Sith Sith to change sides.

It's not that Jedi were trained to kill Sith on sight, it's that some of them said "I don't trust sith and **** em all." Which, let's be fair, is a well deserved first thought to go with when it comes to Sith.

Also, I don't recall the letter to the Commander saying "We'll burn you in public, but support you in private." for what was done to Saresh. Was that only if you made a DS choice? Only if you were Empire?
I wouldn't say Scourge "changes sides" at all. He fights with the Knight to take down the Emperor, but states over and over that he will always be Sith and that will never change. In fact, he even mentions that he gets amusement out of trying to bring the Knight to the Dark Side. Does he kill Empire soldiers in service to the Knight? Yeah, but they're allies working together towards a common goal. At no point is he ever "Hoo-ah I'm a 'Pub now!"

And yeah, you most definitely get a letter from Malcom right after executing Saresh stating that the Republic will officially speak out against the Outlander, but privately he gives a high five. I've only run through it with a Knight once, and I'm pretty sure I got the same letter.
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IoNonSoEVero's Avatar


IoNonSoEVero
01.06.2018 , 01:39 AM | #23
I'm retiring from this debate after this comment, because if one is inclined to believe the Jedi and Republic are as pure as driven snow and the Sith and Empire are somehow much worse, I guess one will. It's not true, however.

Quote: Originally Posted by SithKoriandr View Post
Criminals take slaves. The republic does not. There's a difference there.
They do not stop it. They are complacent, all while pretending there's no slavery. They only intervene when it's someone important to their cause. That's worse IMHO.

Quote:
have no idea where people get the Jedi kidnap children aspect, I've never read it anywhere in the lore/books I've read. What book is this in? That said, we know for a fact the Sith do. That's stated straight out the gate in the Empire side. Raina is in hiding because of it. They also don't care what level of force user you are. "You can move a pebble and nothing more? Well, you're still going, you just won't last long."
Book of the Jedi, for one thing. it's a standard part of Jedi lore. The Republic laws allow Jedi to take any kid with Force sensitivity and cut off all attachment with their families forever.

Ashara mentions she was taken as an infant and has not been able to contact her parents since. Jaesa's parents also say they were told to never expect to hear from her again.

Quote:
Sooo, assuming there's truth to this Jedi stealing kids, Sith do it too.
Actually, there's nothing in Sith lore or in any of the books that suggest they do this at all. Thana Vesh's parents for instance refuse to have her trained. There's another quest on Hutta between parents who are fighting over whether to send their kid to the Academy. Raina is in hiding because it's *expected* to send your kid to be trained, but the Sith do not steal children or expect them to forsake their families.

Quote:
The Foundry, run by Revan (ex-Sith), who was a little mad to begin with?
The Jedi sprung him from Malestrom Prisom and the Republic and Jedi actively supported and protected the Foundry, which planned to kill 98% of Imperial citizens (the amount with any Sith heritage). They supported genocide. They also ran a prison on Belsavis that imprisoned the children and grandchildren of criminals - people who had done nothing wrong but were being kept in jail for life because of something their parents did.

Oh, and speaking of Belsavis and the Republic's respect for aliens, they also started the domination experiments there where they made the alien prisoners fight each other to see which would be the best soldiers. The Empire continued them, but they wouldn't have had the idea without the Republic starting it.

Quote:
Let's look at that Ashara comment. Made by the padawan who didn't get her Masters lessons. Versus a Jedi Knight class that can get a Pure Blood Sith Sith to change sides.
Ashara's a lifetime student of the Jedi and her comments are mirrored by others. As for Scourge, he helps the Jedi Knight because it furthers his goal of defeating the Emperor. He makes it very clear he is still Sith and still an adherent to the Sith Code.

Quote:
Which, let's be fair, is a well deserved first thought to go with when it comes to Sith.
Only if you believe all the stereotypes and see things in black and white.

Quote:
Also, I don't recall the letter to the Commander saying "We'll burn you in public, but support you in private." for what was done to Saresh. Was that only if you made a DS choice? Only if you were Empire?
Nope. Everyone gets it, and it says just that. The Republic never repudiates Saresh's actions regardless of your choices and they actively support the Eternal Throne. They support the Eternal Throne, let's say that again. They support oppression, and the only difference in KOTFE and KOTET is that their corruption and cruelty is out in the open. They're worse than the Empire in every way.

Quote:
As for the Empire's more aliens in power...yeah...if they have force powers. Yeah, they make good soldiers. That's about it.
Actually they have aliens working everywhere from the military to the Imperial Science Service, very actively.

JediMasterSkid's Avatar


JediMasterSkid
01.06.2018 , 03:04 AM | #24
My Agent sided with Republic because even though she is loyal to the Empire, during her Story line given my options I felt that the Sith wanted to take her out of the picture. So I joined the republic to fight against the Sith learn Intel about the republic then stab them in the back when the time comes. Well that is how I project it in my head anyway. Inquister and Consular side with their respective faction
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Hazevamp's Avatar


Hazevamp
01.12.2018 , 10:02 PM | #25
I always side with the Empire. The Republic didn't lift a finger to help against The Eternal Throne, now they demand I break an alliance to help them? I wish my SI had force choked Malcolm right then and there, but for some reason, he keeps forgetting he can do that.

As for Acina, I hope I get to betray her just like she tried to do the alliance.

Personally, I would have preferred using my fleet to bomb them to hell and back, but whatever.

SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
01.13.2018 , 07:11 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by IoNonSoEVero View Post
I'm retiring from this debate after this comment, because if one is inclined to believe the Jedi and Republic are as pure as driven snow and the Sith and Empire are somehow much worse, I guess one will. It's not true, however.



They do not stop it. They are complacent, all while pretending there's no slavery. They only intervene when it's someone important to their cause. That's worse IMHO.



Book of the Jedi, for one thing. it's a standard part of Jedi lore. The Republic laws allow Jedi to take any kid with Force sensitivity and cut off all attachment with their families forever.

Ashara mentions she was taken as an infant and has not been able to contact her parents since. Jaesa's parents also say they were told to never expect to hear from her again.



Actually, there's nothing in Sith lore or in any of the books that suggest they do this at all. Thana Vesh's parents for instance refuse to have her trained. There's another quest on Hutta between parents who are fighting over whether to send their kid to the Academy. Raina is in hiding because it's *expected* to send your kid to be trained, but the Sith do not steal children or expect them to forsake their families.


The Jedi sprung him from Malestrom Prisom and the Republic and Jedi actively supported and protected the Foundry, which planned to kill 98% of Imperial citizens (the amount with any Sith heritage). They supported genocide. They also ran a prison on Belsavis that imprisoned the children and grandchildren of criminals - people who had done nothing wrong but were being kept in jail for life because of something their parents did.

Oh, and speaking of Belsavis and the Republic's respect for aliens, they also started the domination experiments there where they made the alien prisoners fight each other to see which would be the best soldiers. The Empire continued them, but they wouldn't have had the idea without the Republic starting it.



Ashara's a lifetime student of the Jedi and her comments are mirrored by others. As for Scourge, he helps the Jedi Knight because it furthers his goal of defeating the Emperor. He makes it very clear he is still Sith and still an adherent to the Sith Code.


Only if you believe all the stereotypes and see things in black and white.



Nope. Everyone gets it, and it says just that. The Republic never repudiates Saresh's actions regardless of your choices and they actively support the Eternal Throne. They support the Eternal Throne, let's say that again. They support oppression, and the only difference in KOTFE and KOTET is that their corruption and cruelty is out in the open. They're worse than the Empire in every way.



Actually they have aliens working everywhere from the military to the Imperial Science Service, very actively.
I don't recall them saying, they condone. Only that they don't have the resources to stop it (coruscant).

Raina's whole story is about how they would take her from her family and have her train on Korriban, and how she would die because she sucks as a force user. Even the Inquisitor was "Slave with force power, force them to Korriban".

The quest on Hutta does have the parents fighting over it, with the father saying "Take my kid into hiding, so he can't go."

And by the sounds of it, parents are giving away their children in the republic.

I'm not saying I agree with what the Jedi believe by the way. Also, it's obvious the Republic will do some bad things themselves. They're not the out numbered rebels against tyranny. They're the equal numbered group who isn't run by an evil dictator.

Which, playing through the story again, so far, lots of "Alien scum!" on my Inquisitor
"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more...than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so *********** what." - Stephen Fry

Shayddow's Avatar


Shayddow
01.15.2018 , 10:17 AM | #27
"I don't recall slavery being active in Republic controlled worlds. Just Hutt ones. Unless it's illegal and under the Rep's nose."

One of the very first quests you do on Coruscant involves a senator who is dealing in slave-collar computer chips.
Yes, illegal. But apparently practiced.
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Shayddow's Avatar


Shayddow
01.15.2018 , 10:30 AM | #28
"Actually, there's nothing in Sith lore or in any of the books that suggest they do this at all. Thana Vesh's parents for instance refuse to have her trained. There's another quest on Hutta between parents who are fighting over whether to send their kid to the Academy. Raina is in hiding because it's *expected* to send your kid to be trained, but the Sith do not steal children or expect them to forsake their families."


Under the Emperor it was a law that if you are force sensitive, you either train as a Sith or you are put to death. Didn't you do the "Cave 52" quest on Imperial Balmorra? That pretty much outlines what the "rules" are in this case.

In the case of TEMPLE in the Imperial agent story, you also get the picture of how things go for force sensitive who don't train for whatever reason.

So, yes, both sides have their drawbacks.
For my own characters, I've pretty much had them stick to their original faction - although a few made the hard choice to leave their original. (I.e. one of. my agents - the one who went to work for the SIS after their class story-line). Although now when he goes around to different planets he dressed Elara up as an Imperial and hangs out in the old imperial hang-outs....
( I should do a short-story fiction on those, they make an interesting match - 2 ex-imperials...)
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casirabit's Avatar


casirabit
01.15.2018 , 10:36 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by SithKoriandr View Post
I don't recall them saying, they condone. Only that they don't have the resources to stop it (coruscant).

Raina's whole story is about how they would take her from her family and have her train on Korriban, and how she would die because she sucks as a force user. Even the Inquisitor was "Slave with force power, force them to Korriban".

The quest on Hutta does have the parents fighting over it, with the father saying "Take my kid into hiding, so he can't go."

And by the sounds of it, parents are giving away their children in the republic.

I'm not saying I agree with what the Jedi believe by the way. Also, it's obvious the Republic will do some bad things themselves. They're not the out numbered rebels against tyranny. They're the equal numbered group who isn't run by an evil dictator.

Which, playing through the story again, so far, lots of "Alien scum!" on my Inquisitor
There is also a quest on Balmorra, on the imperial side, you are asked to go investigate a cave and find some force sensitives that are too weak to be sith or jedi but yet the Empire wants you to kill them since they have a rule, either train or you are killed.

While the Jedi has various other avenues for those that are not cut out to be a Jedi, such as Jedi Service Corps (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_Service_Corps) or Council of First Knowledge, (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Counc...wledge/Legends) ( the sith did not have this. You either became a sith or you died or were killed.

That doesn't mean I agree with the Jedi 100% but for me having another option for some force sensitives was better than being killed just because you were not cut out to be a sith or jedi. Each side has it drawbacks, neither is perfect but it depends on your view of things which is best according to your views.
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ceryxp's Avatar


ceryxp
01.15.2018 , 01:04 PM | #30
Some people are misremembering things. Regarding the quests on Coruscant.

First, For Better or Worse. This quest involves Nik Deleru who wants you to rescue his wife, Ria, after she is kidnapped. Let's look at the details. Nik fell behind on his payments to the Migrant Merchants' Guild who, as Nik believes, punished him by kidnapped his wife. First, the Migrant Merchants' Guild. While they present as a legitimate trade consortium they are actually a criminal organization that has clashed frequently with Coruscant Security Force. Second, when you find Ria she explains that she actually left Nik and is not being forced to dancer for Hanera's Dance Troupe. She left him and Nik, being possessive, jealous, and controlling, couldn't fathom that situation so concocted a story of his mate being kidnapped. It is a throw back to a quest in KotOR 2.

Second, Justicar Injustice. In this quest you are asked by Renalda Agareth to rescue her brother, Braedon. She states that Braedon was kidnapped by the Justicars. The details. The following is from the Star Wars Wiki. "In the aftermath of the Sacking of Coruscant, crime syndicates, such as Black Sun, took advantage of the upheaval on Coruscant and began seizing control of the planet's lower levels. With sparse resources, the Republic was unable to counter the takeover and the Coruscant Security Force (CSF) was withdrawn to protect more vital areas. In response, a group of ex-soldiers formed the Justicars' Brigade, a militia later simply known as the Justicars. Their intent was to defend not only their homes, but to retake their neighborhoods. As the backlash from Black Sun began, the Justicars took harsher steps to retake control, declaring curfews and eventually martial law. The area they seized was soon called the Justicars' Sector and an old CSF facility was renamed the Justicars' Tower and set up as their headquarters. Armed security patrols were authorized to use lethal force against those who did not possess the proper clearances as defined by the Justicars." Braedon states that he violated curfew and was pressed into service. The Justicars are operating illegally, but they didn't enslave Braedon as some have tried to say.

Third, The Senatorís Stolen Goods. Senator Barc tells you that the Migrant Merchantsí Guild (legitimate trade consortium my ***) hijacked the Senator's shipment of computer chips. What the Senator doesn't tell you, and Captain Denal-zon informs you of, the computer chips are illegal within the Republic because they are the primary control chip for Rylothian slave collars. The Senator didn't import slave collars but chips used in slave collars (not that that's any better and they are still illegal). Captain Denal-zon asks you to bring them to him for destruction. Senator Barc never says what the chips are going to be used for. What you choose to do earns you light or dark side
points. Which choice awards which is pretty obvious.

Some other Coruscant missions that weren't mentioned are Crisis in Galactic City, The Politics of Dissent, and Follow the Money. In Crisis in Galactic City, after doing a series of missions you learn that Senator Kayl was colluding with the Migrant Merchants' Guild and the light side option is to force her to reveal her collusion. The Politics of Dissent has Spirakris Zarem asking you to steal a parcel belonging to Senator Parvil because Parvil is advocating breaking ties with the Jedi and joining the Sith. You are given the option, do you allow democracy to run its course or do you interfere and steal the documents for the "greater good"? It's a moral choice. Do the ends justify the means? Lastly, Follow the Money has Senator Nalrin Daheel asking you to uncover collusion between Senator Gunaray Dod and the Black Suns. It is another mission that deals with corruption with the Republic and bringing it to light. There are many missions on Coruscant that reveal that the Republic is not perfect, it is not a paragon of righteousness, and the whole point of the missions is to emphasize that democracy requires work and dedication.

Ashara Zavos, she never states that she was forcibly taken from her parents only that she was taken for training with the Jedi at age five and it is common practice for the Jedi to separate a child from their family. If you want to use a third-party source, fine, but there is nothing in the game that states that the Jedi steal children or press people into training. Of course, the big difference between the Jedi and the Sith is failure to complete your training with the Jedi doesn't mean death as can be seen on Tython with the quest Commune With the Light. The fact that Flingeld doesn't lie dead after failing Master Quilljayk's trial is evidence enough of the differences between the two groups. Thana Vesh isn't a good counter argument since, when her parents tried to suppress her force abilities, she burned down a block and was forced into training. Raina Temple specifically states that she fled the Empire and sought asylum with the Chiss Ascendancy as a fugitive because of her force sensitivity.

With regard to Saresh and Eternal Throne. If you take the dark side choice you do get a message about it. The message comes from the current Supreme Chancellor who says that publicly he must condemn your actions but privately he applauds them. We also learn his fate in TatC.

For myself, I have taken four character through the Iokath story. In three of those cases I sided with the Republic. Their justifications. For two, both gray leaning Consulars, they understand that there is corruption within the Republic. That there have been, currently are, and will likely be problems, but that is the price you pay for democracy. It's not a perfect system, nothing is, and many of those problems stem from the fact that the people themselves are not perfect. They also recognize that individual failings can do much more harm within a totalitarian system. The third, a Sorcerer, knows the evil of the Empire having lived it first hand. They long worked to change the Empire from within only to see the same old corruption and self serving attitudes be rewarded with power time and again. When given the choice, between the Republic and the Empire, it only took my Sorc a moment's thought to defect. The Assassin, on the other hand, is self serving and power hungry. He believes that he deserves to be a Sith, that he deserves power, that might does make right, that the ends do justify the means, and the powerful should be in charge. Now, while there are certainly those within the Republic who feel that way, as can be seen by several Coruscant missions and I'm looking at one particular General within the Republic army, such activity, when brought to light, is not viewed as acceptable unlike within the Empire where it is often rewarded and encouraged. Acina claims to want to change that. Maybe she's genuine. But on Dromand Kaas she's more than willing to carry out an execution without a trial, and just as willing to slap a slave collar on Lorman. Neither my Sage, Shadow, or Sorc can get behind that.
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