As it is currently, there is absolutely no reason to use any composition of classes besides 4 marauders for HM operations. Not only is their dps excellent, but with 4 mara's the group can roll "constant" bloodlust to maintain max group dps. The best solution is to put bloodlust on a global cool down for the group analogous to battle rez.

That's just ridiculous. its a buff that provides extra damage for 15 seconds. and its on a 2 min CD. how is that continuous / constant rolling bloodlust?

That's just ridiculous. its a buff that provides extra damage for 15 seconds. and its on a 2 min CD. how is that continuous / constant rolling bloodlust?

Ya you do a boss without a tank or healer and get back to me.

As it is currently, there is absolutely no reason to use any composition of classes besides 4 marauders for HM operations. Not only is their dps excellent, but with 4 mara's the group can roll "constant" bloodlust to maintain max group dps. The best solution is to put bloodlust on a global cool down for the group analogous to battle rez.

Oh My Goodness! Why, the fact that my raid group is clearing HM S&V without Marauders or Sentinels must be some kind of mistake! We'll delete our toons and re-level from scratch immediately.

Thank you SO VERY MUCH for bringing this to our attention!

/tryagainbuddy

Oh My Goodness! Why, the fact that my raid group is clearing HM S&V without Marauders or Sentinels must be some kind of mistake! We'll delete our toons and re-level from scratch immediately.

 

Thank you SO VERY MUCH for bringing this to our attention!

 

 

/tryagainbuddy

It's not the point that you can't clear content without maras. The point is groups are rewarded for bringing 4 of the same exact class and there is nothing to discourage them.

And some of the above posts are very wrong, bloodthirst is a 15% increase to dps and healing for 15 seconds with a 5 min cooldown. I also specified operations which has 8 people, presumably 2 tanks, 2 healers, 4 dps.

The OP is wrong on many levels:

• The are many fights where having 4 melee DPS makes the fight more challenging such as Zorn & Toth.
  
• Marauders suffer from poor AoE even in smash spec compared to other classes, and AoE is very useful for boss adds.
  
• While Marauders offer great utility via defensive CDs and proc self heals, there are many other classes that bring other utility such as taunts, other target heals, cleanses, group damage reduction, pulls, etc.
  

I appreciate you used quotes around constant, but even still at best you would be able to get 60s out of 300s of max DPS due to Bloodthirst - 20% is far from constant. Plus, when a Marauder is affected by another Marauder's buff - Predation or Bloodthirst - they do not build stacks of fury. It is really difficult to do max DPS when you can't use Berserk.

***?

I don't even

/facepalm

It's not the point that you can't clear content without maras. The point is groups are rewarded for bringing 4 of the same exact class and there is nothing to discourage them.

 

And some of the above posts are very wrong, bloodthirst is a 15% increase to dps and healing for 15 seconds with a 5 min cooldown. I also specified operations which has 8 people, presumably 2 tanks, 2 healers, 4 dps.

Also, an operation group could be rewarded by bringing 4 snipers and 2 operatives heals for total of 6 Orbital Strikes every minute. That thing does obscene damage to everything. Who cares if you make your group like that ?

Okay, Marauder 1 I want you to CC Flame, Marauder 2 CC Gun, Marauder 3 CC Shield, Marauder 4 CC Lightning...

Oh wait...

Because trash is hard right?

It actually is in the HM, NiM Ops runs.

This thread is akin to something I've been posting about for months. Marauder is easily the dominant melee class. I cannot think of a single fight where you cannot take 4 marauders who have an ungodly amount of cooldowns, most noticeably being able to roll Bloodthirst with 20% uptime.

What advantage can you think of to bringing any of the other melee dps classes?

Powertechs have... Pull, Taunt, and Stealth Scan -- lose

Operatives have Vanish, Cleanse (Tech/Physical), Infiltrate, Exfiltrate -- lose

Assassins can Vanish, Taunt, Phasewalk, Overcharge Saber, Force Speed -- lose

Juggernauts have Taunt, Push, Intercede -- lose

It actually is in the HM, NiM Ops runs.

If trash is hard for you, you probably need as many bloodthirsts as possible. This thread is more about class balance and less about crutches.

For some odd reason I feel the need to reply........but I know I shouldn't because a lot of people are ignorant and the trolls will come out. However, I just can't resist...................

If you are in an 8 man operation and you bring 4 Marauders, you are going to nerf the bejesus out of their damage if you think you will roll Bloodthirst/Inspiration back to back. No Centering/Fury build up --> No Forced Crits --> Damage loss.

Now let's move on to something else, if we are going to go the OP route and wonder why we don't stack a specific class we should look at Slingers/Snipers. See, if you run 4 Slingers/Snipers in FULL Engineering/Saboteur you will do MORE damage then marauders on any medium to large boss. Not to mention.....trash is a friggin joke. Heh, the other night in 16 man HM TFB I had about 16k dps on a trash pull..............please match that with bloodthirst. Oh yeah, on a training dummy I sustain 3.2k dps without breaking a sweat or trying to time things perfectly.....or even getting lucky.

How about the benefits of bringing all ranged dps? Don't you think that outweighs the melee? Oh yeah and you can't forget the shield that gives a flat 20% damage reduction for all underneath it...............

TL;DR OP........you are ignorant to think that Bloodthirst is the only reason to bring and damage class to a raid. You should look into other classes and ACTUALLY understand how they function and what damage they do. Raids are all about balance and individual performance.

Because trash is hard right?

Because bosses are hard? And from our healers P.O.V - the trash is harder in S&V then the bosses. We've downed HM S&V w/out marauders, so clearly Marauders are not needed.

However, I do agree that Marauders bring the most utility for a melee dps class, but the other 3 melee classes bring the utility of being able to respec to another role... something a Marauder cannot do.

If trash is hard for you, you probably need as many bloodthirsts as possible. This thread is more about class balance and less about crutches.

If you are in an 8 man operation and you bring 4 Marauders, you are going to nerf the bejesus out of their damage if you think you will roll Bloodthirst/Inspiration back to back. No Centering/Fury build up --> No Forced Crits --> Damage loss.

You are forgetting the initial Bloodthirst. Soon as it is out (I would imagine immediately because people are idiots and don't know how to time abilities) then the other 3 have no Fury/Centering built. They would then have to pop Valorous Call to gain their stacks. When that is done, then the next Mara would be building to 30 then pop his Bloodthirst, since some others would be behind they would get clipped.....so on and so forth. Let us not forget that the odds are in favor of mechanics interrupting the Bloodthirsts and bringing down the damage.

There are 2 times within a fight that Bloodthirst should be used. The first time is (Properly) on in the beginning and the second is in the end during the burn phase. The only change to that is if the fight will be less then 5 minutes; in which case you use it below 30%. In any other place you are loosing potential damage.

If trash is hard for you, you probably need as many bloodthirsts as possible. This thread is more about class balance and less about crutches.

Pro tip. Thanks bro. More bloodthirst will be required for all trash pulls.

TL;DR OP........you are ignorant to think that Bloodthirst is the only reason to bring and damage class to a raid. You should look into other classes and ACTUALLY understand how they function and what damage they do. Raids are all about balance and individual performance.

The OP did not specify in his post, however several posters that know Ifrit have been using the word "melee" in their responses. Marauders and snipers are definitely the top two targets of my conversations about overpowered classes, however I know that Ifrit's raising the same question I have many times: Why would you bring any melee class to a fight other than marauders? In other words, if you had one player with all melee classes that were equally geared, why would you want him to bring his operative, assassin, powertech, or juggernaut?

Also, nothing in this game really requires any actual class composition, so bringing the classes that are not in damage and utility balance (overpowered) instead of the other classes makes the content even more trivial. I think Ifrit's underlying argument is that the classes are not balanced so that every class has damage equivalent to their personal raid utility.

The OP did not specify in his post, however several posters that know Ifrit have been using the word "melee" in their responses. Marauders and snipers are definitely the top two targets of my conversations about overpowered classes, however I know that Ifrit's raising the same question I have many times: Why would you bring any melee class to a fight other than marauders? In other words, if you had one player with all melee classes that were equally geared, why would you want him to bring his operative, assassin, powertech, or juggernaut?

 

Also, nothing in this game really requires any actual class composition, so bringing the classes that are not in damage and utility balance (overpowered) instead of the other classes makes the content even more trivial. I think Ifrit's underlying argument is that the classes are not balanced so that every class has damage equivalent to their personal raid utility.

No, utility and dps should be two completely independent things.

You balance dps classes around their dps based on boss mechanics. That's it.

You balance utility around utility.

I would personally give up Beserk, Predation, and BT if it meant I can have perma-stealth, or wear heavy armor all the time... AND could respec to a tank role... all while doing the same DPS numbers I'm doing now.

No, utility and dps should be two completely independent things.

 

You balance dps classes around their dps based on boss mechanics. That's it.

 

You balance utility around utility.

 

I would personally give up Beserk, Predation, and BT if it meant I can have perma-stealth, or wear heavy armor all the time... AND could respec to a tank role... all while doing the same DPS numbers I'm doing now.

but you wouldn't give up dps for these things?