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GSF Discussion: Friction Points

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Galactic Starfighter
GSF Discussion: Friction Points
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Pietrastor's Avatar


Pietrastor
10.28.2018 , 08:57 PM | #301
Quote: Originally Posted by Storm-Cutter View Post
I wonder if the 300-th post after the initial question triggers something..... like a response.... or even just a post mortem nerve impulse.

I would think 250+ posts of open, honest, sensible opinions should get something..... or is it business as usual at Bioware?
-i.e. Ask a question, ignore the answers for over 2 years.. then ask another?

Just wondering .... HELLO? ANYONE AT HOME IN THERE? ANYONE? HELLO?
I would hope a year later, with 300 posts mostly saying the same thing (must be legacy-based, PVE mode heavily needed) deserves a response, even if it's "sorry, no budget for any of that". Really, what was the point of this thread if the devs ain't gonna do anything with the feedback... Feels like 'Suggestions' section in General where people write essays for nothing honestly
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phalczen's Avatar


phalczen
10.29.2018 , 05:29 AM | #302
Quote: Originally Posted by Pietrastor View Post
Really, what was the point of this thread if the devs ain't gonna do anything with the feedback... Feels like 'Suggestions' section in General where people write essays for nothing honestly
The result of the thread was to provide us with:
  1. Game Update 5.5 on October 10, 2017
  2. Game Update 5.9.2 on August 7, 2018
  3. Game Update 5.10 TBA
Game Update 5.10's "PVP Challenge System," available for you to test right now and give your feedback on, is a direct result of our feedback for better ways of providing education to new pilots, provide custom match lobbies for people to hold events and set up their own exclusions, and provide a method for smaller groups to challenge themselves. If you listened to Bret Hoffman's interview with the BadFeeling podcast guys on August 24 in Episode 205 you would recall that he specifically said he wants to improve the tutorial and address the learning curve for new pilots.

Of course, 5.5 included many balance changes as a direct result of our feedback, and we've been playing for a year with buffed strikes, nerfed gunships, nerfed bombers, nerfed battlescouts, but overall an interesting meta. GU 5.9.2 brought in an actual matchmaker, even as limitied as it is, and cross faction play, which resulted in more balanced teams, in my opinion, though I know many disagree. All these things are mentioned in this thread as friction points. What asteroid have you been sleeping under? Really, what was the point of this necro?
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Pietrastor's Avatar


Pietrastor
10.29.2018 , 07:55 AM | #303
Quote: Originally Posted by phalczen View Post
The result of the thread was to provide us with:
  1. Game Update 5.5 on October 10, 2017
  2. Game Update 5.9.2 on August 7, 2018
  3. Game Update 5.10 TBA
Game Update 5.10's "PVP Challenge System," available for you to test right now and give your feedback on, is a direct result of our feedback for better ways of providing education to new pilots, provide custom match lobbies for people to hold events and set up their own exclusions, and provide a method for smaller groups to challenge themselves. If you listened to Bret Hoffman's interview with the BadFeeling podcast guys on August 24 in Episode 205 you would recall that he specifically said he wants to improve the tutorial and address the learning curve for new pilots.

Of course, 5.5 included many balance changes as a direct result of our feedback, and we've been playing for a year with buffed strikes, nerfed gunships, nerfed bombers, nerfed battlescouts, but overall an interesting meta. GU 5.9.2 brought in an actual matchmaker, even as limitied as it is, and cross faction play, which resulted in more balanced teams, in my opinion, though I know many disagree. All these things are mentioned in this thread as friction points. What asteroid have you been sleeping under? Really, what was the point of this necro?
Is this a joke? Balance changes, matchmaking improvements and cross-faction queues are all welcome fixes but they help mostly already existing veteran players rather than new pilots. They don't address large scale GSF accesability, learning curve and interconectivity with the ground game. And neither will custom matches. Sporadic guilds/groups that will set up custom matches to teach a few new players 'how to GSF' is NOT a large-scale solution to these problems. Game needs actual designed game systems that will teach the players the basics and prepare them for matches = PVE tutorials/missions. Relying on the playerbase to act as the tutorial on a wide scale is ridiculous.

Out of the following issues: learning curve, balance, lack of incentives, matchmaking, GSF not being legacy - only 2 were somehow addressed and those 2 have the least effect on GSF's game-wide accesability, popularity, conectivity, attractiveness etc.

So yeah, the bump is absolutely warranted becase none of the big key issues were addressed or even commented on. If they didn't plan on addressing/commenting on them, they shoudln't have included them in this topic bullet points in the first place.
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phalczen's Avatar


phalczen
10.29.2018 , 11:42 AM | #304
Quote: Originally Posted by Pietrastor View Post
Is this a joke? Balance changes, matchmaking improvements and cross-faction queues are all welcome fixes but they help mostly already existing veteran players rather than new pilots. They don't address large scale GSF accesability, learning curve and interconectivity with the ground game. And neither will custom matches. Sporadic guilds/groups that will set up custom matches to teach a few new players 'how to GSF' is NOT a large-scale solution to these problems. Game needs actual designed game systems that will teach the players the basics and prepare them for matches = PVE tutorials/missions. Relying on the playerbase to act as the tutorial on a wide scale is ridiculous.
I disagree strongly. Having a starter ship that is not only viable, but meta, is very important in improving the experience for new players. Think back to the beginning of the game when a Jedi Knight didn't get a healing companion until the start of Act 2. There's nothing more iconic than the story of a Jedi Knight, and similarly nothing more iconic than this game's equivalent of an x-wing.

And, education by fellow players is absolutely essential to improving performance. Look at PUGging operations or even flashpoints. If you take the time to explain the fights to a newbie, doesn't the whole run go smoother? The developers never created a manual for flashpoint bosses or operations bosses the community did. Creating mechanisms for teaching players on a 2v2 setting doesn't absolve the Dev Team from improving the tutorial, but I'd bet Despon or Drako will be able to make a fancy video now with these custom matches that teach players more about GSF than any scripted tutorial could. Direct, personal feedback, real time, is probably more helpful than a tutorial mode. Reading about how to do a surgery is not the same as actually doing the procedure, or performing it on a simulator. Finally, improving a tutorial mode doesn't have benefits to anyone but the new players. Custom match lobbies can be used to educate but also for events or even just for the sake of pvp. Thus, doing the challenge system has wider utility and is, in my opinion, a better investment of limited resources. And, if people are having fun with events, they are more likely to stick around in the game, and in turn, fuel it for the future.

Bret did address the legacy issue, and there are technical challenges with the way Requisition is in the current system that limit its conversion to a "Currency" like other currencies in the game that are legacy-bound. As a stopgap measure he implemented the conversion of Fleet Comms to requisition grants. I would advocate for larger fleet commendation rewards for the Daily and Weekly, and possibly for Fleet Comms to be granted from each match as well. That would facilitate transition of requisition a little bit easier, at least until he and the Engineers have time to create a workaround. It's annoying to be sure, and it would be nice if my 100s of thousands of req on my main pilots could be gifted to some of my other toons, but there are independent reasons to fly on alts even without the requisition issue.

I do agree with you about the incentives though. I've always agreed with that, GSF could use some more decos, armors, titles, tunings, flairs, etc. At least, with the new Tier 5 rating 258 gear coming in 5.10, Unassembled Components from GSF will still be just as valuable. We won't see more incentives probably until we see the Flagship perks related to guild heraldry which depend upon the custom pvp challenge system and come AFTER 5.10.
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Pietrastor's Avatar


Pietrastor
10.31.2018 , 05:07 AM | #305
Quote: Originally Posted by phalczen View Post
I disagree strongly. Having a starter ship that is not only viable, but meta, is very important in improving the experience for new players. Think back to the beginning of the game when a Jedi Knight didn't get a healing companion until the start of Act 2. There's nothing more iconic than the story of a Jedi Knight, and similarly nothing more iconic than this game's equivalent of an x-wing.
no clue what are you disagreeing with as I never made any point/argument about starter ships of any kind

Quote: Originally Posted by phalczen View Post
And, education by fellow players is absolutely essential to improving performance. Look at PUGging operations or even flashpoints. If you take the time to explain the fights to a newbie, doesn't the whole run go smoother? The developers never created a manual for flashpoint bosses or operations bosses the community did. Creating mechanisms for teaching players on a 2v2 setting doesn't absolve the Dev Team from improving the tutorial, but I'd bet Despon or Drako will be able to make a fancy video now with these custom matches that teach players more about GSF than any scripted tutorial could. Direct, personal feedback, real time, is probably more helpful than a tutorial mode. Reading about how to do a surgery is not the same as actually doing the procedure, or performing it on a simulator. Finally, improving a tutorial mode doesn't have benefits to anyone but the new players. Custom match lobbies can be used to educate but also for events or even just for the sake of pvp. Thus, doing the challenge system has wider utility and is, in my opinion, a better investment of limited resources. And, if people are having fun with events, they are more likely to stick around in the game, and in turn, fuel it for the future.
Im not against custom matches or anything, great that they're adding them but it wont change any large scale GSF issues. As for OPS comparsion - OPS players go through massive tutorial of solo play leveling experience, flashpoints, herois and all before they even step a foot inside OPS. This is incomparable to GSF entry/learning curve where players are thrown in... not even knowing how to MOVE/fly their avatars, let alone any deeper understanding of the mechanics. Even with ground PVP players are prepared & taught the core basics the gameplay by the game itself (not 3rd party tutorials). GSF has neary nothing on that front.
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phalczen
10.31.2018 , 06:01 AM | #306
Quote: Originally Posted by Pietrastor View Post
no clue what are you disagreeing with as I never made any point/argument about starter ships of any kind
You wrote that ship balance isn't relevant to the new player experience.
Quote: Originally Posted by Pietrastor View Post
Is this a joke? Balance changes, matchmaking improvements and cross-faction queues are all welcome fixes but they help mostly already existing veteran players rather than new pilots.
Given that strike fighters have a certain iconic appeal, and that the Rycer/Starguard is a starter ship, and that for 3 years and 10 months it was, at best, underpowered, and at worst, an easy kill, improving that ship makes much more of an impact on the new player experience than you admit. People will naturally gravitate toward a ship that has a star warsy feel, and what is more star warsy than hopping into a X-wing or TIE fighter and dogfighting? The closest thing we have in this game to an x-wing is a Strike. If the moment a new player steps into a strike, they are food, well, that's not going to be a good experience. Pretty much every ground class is viable from the get go, especially now that companions can heal from the starting block. That wasn't the case with Strikes until 5.5.

Quote: Originally Posted by Pietrastor View Post
As for OPS comparsion - OPS players go through massive tutorial of solo play leveling experience, flashpoints, herois and all before they even step a foot inside OPS. This is incomparable to GSF entry/learning curve where players are thrown in... not even knowing how to MOVE/fly their avatars, let alone any deeper understanding of the mechanics. Even with ground PVP players are prepared & taught the core basics the gameplay by the game itself (not 3rd party tutorials). GSF has neary nothing on that front.
Bantha poodoo. You can start with the Esseles/Black Talon Flashpoints on your way from your starter planet to the Fleet. The mechanics are simple, but they are still there, more so than traipsing through the wilds of Korriban or Ord Mantell. I know the learning curve is steep but you underestimate how little the game actually teaches you. The only difference is that the abilities your character has translate directly in FPs, OPs, and ground PvP. That doesn't happen in GSF, for obvious reasons, and that's a big area for improving the tutorial. E.g., someone is trying to lock a missile on you, you need to find cover! Uh oh, the missile has been launched, use your engine ability now! Maybe they could add a visual cue around the ability icon for the engine maneuver like they add the glowing box around ground abilities when you get a proc. I'm not saying there isn't room for improvement. But saying the game teaches you how to use mechanics, how to prioritize adds, when to CC, etc, is incorrect.
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Pietrastor's Avatar


Pietrastor
11.04.2018 , 03:55 PM | #307
Quote: Originally Posted by phalczen View Post
Given that strike fighters have a certain iconic appeal, and that the Rycer/Starguard is a starter ship, and that for 3 years and 10 months it was, at best, underpowered, and at worst, an easy kill, improving that ship makes much more of an impact on the new player experience than you admit. People will naturally gravitate toward a ship that has a star warsy feel, and what is more star warsy than hopping into a X-wing or TIE fighter and dogfighting? The closest thing we have in this game to an x-wing is a Strike. If the moment a new player steps into a strike, they are food, well, that's not going to be a good experience. Pretty much every ground class is viable from the get go, especially now that companions can heal from the starting block. That wasn't the case with Strikes until 5.5.
SWTOR's strike fighters are so far removed from the iconic designs of X-wings and TIE fighters that I doubt anyone picks them specifically because of vague resemblance. As for new player experience - balance comes ATFER those new players learn how to even fly/do anything. Once again we're going back to the very basics of GSF experience and complete lack of preparation for the players. The disastrous tutorial doesn't count as any kind of preparation.


Quote: Originally Posted by phalczen View Post
Bantha poodoo. You can start with the Esseles/Black Talon Flashpoints on your way from your starter planet to the Fleet.
AFTER at least few HOURS of basic gameplay tutorial on starter planets. Show me few hours or GSF tutorial.

Quote: Originally Posted by phalczen View Post
The only difference is that the abilities your character has translate directly in FPs, OPs, and ground PvP. That doesn't happen in GSF, for obvious reasons, and that's a big area for improving the tutorial. E.g., someone is trying to lock a missile on you, you need to find cover! Uh oh, the missile has been launched, use your engine ability now! Maybe they could add a visual cue around the ability icon for the engine maneuver like they add the glowing box around ground abilities when you get a proc. I'm not saying there isn't room for improvement. But saying the game teaches you how to use mechanics, how to prioritize adds, when to CC, etc, is incorrect.
You've basically explained/admitted it yourself honestly. GSF doesn't have the learning BASICS. Yes, you're not taught CC, kill order and other important group stuff (which should be part of in-game tutorial as well), but at the very least you're not thrown into operation without even knowing how to move your character or use core skills.

So yeah, bantha poodoo and then you admit yourself GSF doesn't even cover the basics. It's great that the devs improved balance but I won't be patting them on the back "Good job, we're done here, close thread!" because they themselves specifically raised multiple points OUTSIDE the topic of balance that would help GSF's experience, popularity, intergration with the rest of the game etc. If they didn't want to touch these topics, I wouldn't complain. But they did.
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phalczen
11.04.2018 , 09:41 PM | #308
Quote: Originally Posted by Pietrastor View Post
SWTOR's strike fighters are so far removed from the iconic designs of X-wings and TIE fighters that I doubt anyone picks them specifically because of vague resemblance. As for new player experience - balance comes ATFER those new players learn how to even fly/do anything.
Hello? Clarion with Quads and Power Dive? Anyway, the flavor text about strikes definitely seems to indicate they're like a space superiority fighter, and the Flashfire design is obviously inspired by A-wings and Delta-2 Aethersprites (the jedi starfighter from AotC).

Regardless, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I think the balance was so far off, with strikes being basically unusable for 3 years and ten months, that it was a priority. When you have a limited development window to push out an update, whatever it is lets say 200 hours (40 hrs/wk x 5 weeks), and you have two plans, A and B. it takes plan A 180 hours to redo the tutorial. Plan B takes 100 hours to make a new map and 100 hours to make some changes to starfighters and test them with invited players to iron out the bugs. Which plan benefits more players, new and veteran?

Quote: Originally Posted by Pietrastor View Post
You've basically explained/admitted it yourself honestly. GSF doesn't have the learning BASICS. Yes, you're not taught CC, kill order and other important group stuff (which should be part of in-game tutorial as well), but at the very least you're not thrown into operation without even knowing how to move your character or use core skills.
I guess so. Basics is relative. You learn how to move and how to shoot. You can fly to a sat and destroy it. You're told a few things about the UI as well. I outlined several areas where I (presumably) agree with you that could be part of a revamped tutorial. Lets go back to my five week development cycle again. You could have your plan for a revamped tutorial including the examples I made and you quoted, but it takes 180 hours to redo a tutorial. Or, you could take 200 hours and create custom match lobbies so that there could be events; teaching sessions; guild competitions. Which makes more sense, from a standpoint of one developer? I'm not saying Bret is the only person doing anything for GSF, but he's definitely done the lion's share of the design.

I don't know if its 180 hours or 18 hours to do everything Pietrastor wants. If it was low hanging fruit it would have been done already. Biggest bang for the buck. Pick something that can help everyone in some way.

By all means, don't let anyone off the hook. But don't shoot the guy delivering the pizza to you.
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Pietrastor
11.06.2018 , 12:04 PM | #309
Quote: Originally Posted by phalczen View Post
By all means, don't let anyone off the hook. But don't shoot the guy delivering the pizza to you.
Exxcept that BW didn't deliver the 'pizza' in this case, it was only the sauce at most so yeah, I say it's reasonable to complain it ain't exactly they order we 'placed'
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kjarnage
11.11.2018 , 01:26 PM | #310
In PVP players must first do 10 levels of pve to learn the basics. You do not even have to do the tutorial in GSF.
In the real world pilots undergo extensive training. So how about some simple missions using the actual base maps.
Such as attacking a satellite drones that shoot back. Avoiding mines and shooting repair, beacon and other drones.
Chasing down another craft.... Some simple missions to earn wings and requistion points to enter gsf. Maybe a simple scouting mission they can learn to fly and explore the maps finding the satellites, enemy beacon.... Craft are too expensive to have novice pilots flying into rock formations! A first step to upgrading new pilots.