You must be new to this thread and spent < 5 minutes actually reading any of the comments.

 

It's much more likely that he did read the thread, and simply DISAGREES with you.

 

I know I certainly do.

 

You can conflate and contrive this into an issue all you want, it's not going to make people agree with you who simply do not agree with you that the ship mods = P2W in any objective sense in the context of MMOs.

"Pay to get your BH comms here. They only cost 750 Crap Coins per character and doing our 1980s arcade style flight game," Bioware stance.

"Pay to get your BH comms here. They only cost 750 Crap Coins per character and doing our 1980s arcade style flight game," Bioware stance.

im a huge fanboy, but im gonna have to agree with this:confused:

Am I reading and understanding the following right....

 

 

Grade 7 items I know of ingame cost a huge amount of daily / fleet commendations as well as pricey craftable objects... so giving them out day 1 of the new heroic space missions, in a Cartel pack...

circumventing all ingame crafting/grinding by throwing real world money at them...

is that not by definition "Pay2Win" Space Missions ???

:rak_02:

 

careful, the fans will be along soon to string you up for complaining about their game.

 

really though, yes this is play to win. I was finally like YES I can make some creds on my cybertech! Then I was all like *** I can buy all this from the cash shop, Frak you BioEA I am out of here!!!! Maybe I will go back to Rift.... no you fans can not have my stuff... oh ok I will give it to you for 10000 Cartel coins!!!

 

Naa I will not drop my sub yet, though i am getting close.

Its in your own word: A mini-game. Its not your character, its your ship. Its not something you use to play with others, its a single player game, the difficulty is great even with those upgrades and the rewards are minimal. How exactly does this get anywhere close ot P2W? It sounds like most difficult way to gear a character. Its not worth it. That is why those packs are there, because the thing is so hardly worth it they even offer you some ship upgrades to make it worth your while.

 

lol and so it begins...the denial as the eventual P2W creep comes about

That's a pretty far stretch..... PvE gear sucks in PvP Period.... Also show me a person who has not maxed out on Black Hole gear by now, I have 5 50's all wearing black hole gear, the com's to me are worthless unless i level another 50 toon.

 

And you still have to do the space missions and complete them in order to get the black hole com's so it's still not Pay2Win. Not to mention it probably wont take that long to grind out the missions to buy all the ship parts with space fleet com's, I was already maxed on on Space Fleet Com's before this patch came out...

 

Pay2Win would be buying War Hero Gear directly with Cartel Coins.

 

I'm not even gonna grace that statement, especially since they gave you 99 comms on every level 50 you have that enables you to buy an entire Rakata set in your ingame mail this morning. But that is a nerf from a different herder.

 

The space comms earned by doing these missions buy packs that contain the rare crafting materials required to make the grade 27 body armor/weapon parts that have been RE'd from parts for Ops. The point is not the Black Hole comms. The point is that you can buy BiS gear in a mini game that everyone obviously hates and thinks it is just fine to sell us the gear for or make us grind for 2-3 months for it BUT buying it gives you rapid access to farm the comms to buy the crafting drop boxes to make grade 27 armorings/hilts/barrels that are used in every aspect of the game. Your worthless comms got a little more worthless.

 

But after reading this thread, I'm sure that is all fine too. No one cares about working for something. No one cares that this is just the first. I will be sure to come back and point out that this is perfectly fine when they make the next best BiS PvP gear is a 3 month grind or $13 for 9 pieces and tell you how useless those comms are to me because I don't PvP.

Weren't we promised no end-game gear would be placed on the cartel market? It sure didn't take long for them to do a 180 on that.

 

Fail.

The term "pay 2 win" has no meaning to me as pertains to an MMO, since aside from PvP, there is no "winning". What do you win? All it is, is a choice on how to attain something, do you want to grind it out, or pay for it? Everyone has the same choices available. Space missions are basically a solo game within the game anyway, that has no effect on anyone else.

 

On the contrary, it is everything about an MMO. I would say every game by definition has a winning or loosing aspect regardless if it is solo or group play. No? I can play solitaire and on my PC and win or loose? If Microsoft or whoever publishes that game puts a little button on the right corner that, for a mere 50 cents say, reveals the next move or reverses a move... that would be pay to win. Now, it wouldn't have much appeal but that is a different matter.

 

I think the "WIN" aspect in an mmo is lined parallel with character progression via both PvP and PvE thorugh ranks, titles, beating bosses, etc. It is a bit shortsighted and arbitrary to only look at PvP when considering P2W. It is a minigame I gave you that, but it had progression built on it, and for however few did it, it is P2W.

You must be new to this thread and spent < 5 minutes actually reading any of the comments.

 

1) Stop focusing on the "win" part of it. In MMO's the game is never truly "beaten" so you don't actually "win". The hamster wheel keeps going. The problem is that there are many of us in here who have posted that a game that caters to people who are willing to fork over more cash and not have to work/grind/farm/play this game to get gear that isn't just cosmetic, but actually makes the gameplay easier beyond being a subscriber is a tackless move on BW's part. The fact that subs have to spend the time grinding or they can simply plop in their credit card number and buy these items is pretty unacceptable behavior to many of us who have posted in here.

2) The fact that these space missions reward you with things beyond space missions (credits, comms that can buy crafting material, and comms that directly buy endgame gear) rubs many of us the wrong way.

3) Most of us who aren't happy this seem to be saying that although we're not happy with this behavior, this isn't the straw that will break the camel's back (for us). Most of us are saying we don't like this, BW should stop it, and if they continue then many of us will likely unsub from the game.

 

Capiche?

 

First I'll say that I'm subscriber. I've not spent a single cartel coin and probably never will. I play the game for what I can do in it, period.

 

Having said that this whole thread with it's deafening whining and crying about 'fairness' or 'play to win' or 'being able to buy something with real money that I have to work for in game' is total crap. It's EA's business, whether you agree or disagree with their business model, and rest assured it is THEIR business model, is irrelevant.

 

As a purchaser of their product the only power you have is with your wallet (irony). If you don't like something they're doing with what you are paying for...........stop paying for it. If you continue to pay for said product you have nobody to blame but yourself for indulging in something you disapprove of. If you are serious about your displeasure, quit. People no longer paying for their product is the clearest message anyone can send to EA.

 

Beyond that, shut the hell up.

I'm not even gonna grace that statement, especially since they gave you 99 comms on every level 50 you have that enables you to buy an entire Rakata set in your ingame mail this morning. But that is a nerf from a different herder.

 

The space comms earned by doing these missions buy packs that contain the rare crafting materials required to make the grade 27 body armor/weapon parts that have been RE'd from parts for Ops. The point is not the Black Hole comms. The point is that you can buy BiS gear in a mini game that everyone obviously hates and thinks it is just fine to sell us the gear for or make us grind for 2-3 months for it BUT buying it gives you rapid access to farm the comms to buy the crafting drop boxes to make grade 27 armorings/hilts/barrels that are used in every aspect of the game. Your worthless comms got a little more worthless.

 

But after reading this thread, I'm sure that is all fine too. No one cares about working for something. No one cares that this is just the first. I will be sure to come back and point out that this is perfectly fine when they make the next best BiS PvP gear is a 3 month grind or $13 for 9 pieces and tell you how useless those comms are to me because I don't PvP.

 

it wasn't Rakata, it was Tionese

In GTN every new piece its about 400-500k. Everyday doing dailys and you get a pice, 10 days you get all of them. Considering you do not craft nothing but yourselve or any cybertech friend or guildmate or just spend fleet commendations or daily commendations.

 

Parts bought on the GTN made from the crafting schematics are fine. That is 3 parts. The rest, you should have spent 1500 fleet comms and 1400 daily comms for. They should not be on the GTN. They should be bought with comms and bind on pickup like the rest of them are from the fleet vendor have always been. I do cybertech. I find it very hard to believe that those crafted parts have been crafted and put onto the GTN for so little. Have you looked at the mats needed to make one?

Its in your own word: A mini-game. Its not your character, its your ship. Its not something you use to play with others, its a single player game, the difficulty is great even with those upgrades and the rewards are minimal. How exactly does this get anywhere close ot P2W? It sounds like most difficult way to gear a character. Its not worth it. That is why those packs are there, because the thing is so hardly worth it they even offer you some ship upgrades to make it worth your while.

 

I have wrote several post now stating that by no means there is a universal standard whereby P2W is only to be associated with group play and/or PvP. If there is, I ask you bring up reputable sources that clearly define this. The way I see it is that the definition of P2W is merely a qualifier borne and evolving through primarily game forums like this one.

 

If you want to discuss semantics of the three words "Pay to Win" I have wrote several post on that too, I welcome comments. In those I align winning on an MMO with character progression. If one pays to enhance or speed up character progression, then in my opinion one is paying to win. On that note, it is irrelevant if the gear is on your ship or your character. It is a mini-game, but it has progression built in on it. If one played it with progression in mind, to me, it is P2W.

 

"It sounds like most difficult way to gear a character. Its not worth it. That is why those packs are there, because the thing is so hardly worth it they even offer you some ship upgrades to make it worth your while"

 

I am sorry, i don't understand your point here, can you rephrase?

First I'll say that I'm subscriber. I've not spent a single cartel coin and probably never will. I play the game for what I can do in it, period.

 

Having said that this whole thread with it's deafening whining and crying about 'fairness' or 'play to win' or 'being able to buy something with real money that I have to work for in game' is total crap. It's EA's business, whether you agree or disagree with their business model, and rest assured it is THEIR business model, is irrelevant.

 

As a purchaser of their product the only power you have is with your wallet (irony). If you don't like something they're doing with what you are paying for...........stop paying for it. If you continue to pay for said product you have nobody to blame but yourself for indulging in something you disapprove of. If you are serious about your displeasure, quit. People no longer paying for their product is the clearest message anyone can send to EA.

 

Beyond that, shut the hell up.

I understand this isn't game design by democracy.

 

But if you're saying that customers shouldn't complain about a product you must know nothing about business. Customer feedback is essential. Doesn't mean the company should do everything a customer wants, but even companies like Apple realize they make mistakes (lol Apple Maps) after hearing customer feedback.

 

Refusing to understand this concept will get you no where.

Hmm.......... well if you don't see this as P2W I honestly don't see what you would see as P2W between here and there.

 

Would you class FP or OP level gear on the Cashshop as P2W for example?

 

No I would not, because what I consider pay to win is:

1) Allowing a player to buy equipment in a cash shop that gives enough of a distinct power creep that he can beat a lesser equipped player, but one who is much more skilled at the game, solely because of the equipment advantage. And the only way for the more skilled player to regain the advantage is to buy said equipment because nothing else available in game via game play is equal or better than the cash shop equipment.

2) Content in game is effectively gated to a specific set of equipment and cannot be accessed or completed successfully without said equipment and that equipment can only be acquired via a cash shop.

 

Since FP and OPs level gear can be acquired through in-game methods, then I would not consider it P2W if they were then made available in the CM. That being said, would I consider it a good idea if they were offered in the cash shop? I can answer that in two ways.

 

The first would be no. While I wouldn't technically consider it P2W, there are obviously enough gamers who oppose things like this for one reason or another, and not just because of their definition of Pay to Win. I think that if SWTOR was designed from the ground up to offer these items in a cash shop on day 1, I wouldn't have a problem with it because players would already know what to expect and have made the choice to play the game because (or in spite of it). Since it was not, and it is indeed a controversial topic, I think they are better off at this point limiting the equipment to cosmetic differences and the current starship upgrades.

 

The second would be "Hell Yeah!!!!" And the reason is thus:

Part of my enjoyment of a game is the ability to customize the look of my characters to my liking. I don't enjoy it in the sense of anything epeeny, because I don't care what other people think of my toons, my ability in game, nor my accomplishments. So, when I see a piece of gear I really like for one of my toons, I use it, even if it is not necessarily the best in slot (until the lack of stats forces me to upgrade to something else). So, if I happen to like the Esseles gear for instance, I will naturally run the Esseles until I can get the pieces I want. Now, if I could simply buy the set of Esseles gear in the CM, then I most certainly would do so because it would save me the time of having to re-grind out the FP to hopefully get the pieces I want.

 

Does that mean I would never play the Esseles if that be the case? Certainly not. In fact, I continue to run all Flashpoints even though I either have the gear already or despite the fact that the gear is useless compared to what I am using now. Why? Because I enjoy playing the content offered in the game. The end rewards, while nice are not my sole reason for playing them - even the Operations. While the gear is necessary to be able to continue to progress through the Operation chains, it certainly isn't the reason I would play and continue to re-play the same Operations over and over again. I simply want the choice to be able to determine how my characters look so I can experience the content on my own terms.

 

So yes, if Flashpoint and Operation specific armor were available in the store as well as in game, I would be happy because I then have the choice of how and when to experience the content without it feeling like it is a grind.

 

BJ

Edited December 12, 2012 by BJWyler

I have a seven figure net worth. I still don't like getting nickel-and-dimed.

 

Cheers. I pay my sub. I agree there.

 

The others? If you all want to start paying on top of your sub for stuff then let them get away with this. The next item could be your vaunted PvP stuff you thump your chest bragging about. Let them get away with this and that is where it will go. You PvP people calling the people who do space crybabies for having a part of the game they like sold off are in a minority as well. Who do you think is going to be next? I have read this thread through. "It's solo content. There is no leaderboard. You don't compete with anyone else in it." I see what you are saying but you people don't see the whole thing when you read it. It is a toe in the waters. If you don't bite that toe, they are going to dive in.

I logged on this morning after spending the last few weeks grinding out space dailies so i could buy the parts, my plan was to save up buy the schematics for my cybertech, i had spent week gathering the high end materials needed to craft them so i could be one of the first to sell them and hopefully make some profit on the GTN, I didn't see that these same parts were on the cartel market as that had not been announced anywhere in te lead up to 1.6 that I had seen, so i go though the trouble of expending the fleet coms, the daily coms and the credits, and start to craft some of the parts, only to notice when i got to the GTN to see how they are selling that they were going for fa less than the materials costs, only then did i realize that people were just buying them and put these parts up on the market totally making the ability to craft them useless, so that's it I have 4 days left on my subscription, i was slated for it to renew for 6 months but i stooped that, glad i found this out before i wasted anymore money on this game, this is ridiculous

Been subbed since launch. If any of the P2W cartel stuff makes its way into the avatar part of the game I'll simply leave. Bad move. Really bad.

I agree. Putting this stuff for sale in the market was a bad move considering they assured the player base that the cartel market wouldn't go the P2W route.

it wasn't Rakata, it was Tionese

 

Noted. Thanks for the correction.

Lol... this game should favor what you do "outside of this game". If someone gives a lot of money to Bioware, do they deserve to have a max level, full BiS character, w/out playing the game for a minute? Can you obtain the exact same stuff? Yes. Do you think, for any second, that this is fair behavior?

 

Isn't that what MMOs do now - GW2 as the most recent example. Aren't live events, one time events, holiday events and the like all favoring those who have the time in Real Life to participate. Aren't 4 hour 25 man raids favoring those with the time in real life to dedicate to them? Is that fair to the player who can only play a couple of hours per week let alone per night?

 

When I walk into a Casino (not that I am a gambling man, but for example), should I think it unfair that the High Rollers are treated better than I am? If I go to a restaurant a few times a year, should I think it unfair that the person who goes there multiple times per week gets better seating than I do, or they get a special desert on the house and I don't? In terms of SWTOR specifically, I am sure there are a great many players who cannot afford a regular sub, and therefore play for free and will never spend a dime. Should they have equal treatment and enjoy everything I get as a subscriber?

 

So yes, those with more money will almost certainly have the advantage and get better treatment than those without. It may not be fair, but again, that's life and anyone who ever told you Life was supposed to be fair was an idiot.

 

BJ

Edited December 12, 2012 by BJWyler

SWTOR pretty much died for me today. The occasional cash shop stuff was fine. I could buy it on the GTN with a bit of work. I don't mind spending another $10 or $20 a month.

 

Pay2Win and yet another round of gambling boxes this fast is too much though. I expected this from the start but sad to see it happen so quick.

By most of your P2Win definitions, wasn't the game already pay to win with the crystals, artifact slotted level 31 gear, and speeders?

 

I'm more concerned that the game is pushing cartel coins vs long grind even to subscribers.

This is garbage Bioware. I brought my guild back to the game because of F2P model. Everyone of us subbed again. And now you pull a greedy stunt like this (It is pay 2 win). If your plan was to make a quick last ditched cash grab I guess you have succeeded. You have yet again proven to us your vision for the game is not about the gamers.

By most of your P2Win definitions, wasn't the game already pay to win with the crystals, artifact slotted level 31 gear, and speeders?

 

I'm more concerned that the game is pushing cartel coins vs long grind even to subscribers.

 

It seems by most definitions that the game was P2W by virtue of having a sub, which grants me access to all the content by paying $15 a month for it.

 

BJ

I'm done with the space mission BS, I'm usually decent enough at twitch games, but this is nonsense. I failed the Cha Raaba Assault mission now 10 times in a row with tier 7 equipment.

 

You get to the asteroid field and then destroy the 2 merc ships, easy as pie so far, then comes the mine field, the mines have shields and take several hits to kill, so I use my ECM there, otherwise I get blown up my them, no matter how much I evade and roll. Then comes the frigate and then the next wave of merc ships which can hit you even when you don't see them. I always die horribly in this part.

 

There is a difference between challenging and stupidly hard, this is not fun and I will probably forget that a space part exists for now.

Edited December 12, 2012 by HammersteinSW