I have to choose mods with either absorption or defense bonus, which one is better and why?

I personally go/went for Absorption.

 

Defense is for Parry/Dodges etc. and although the Assassin gets a minor boost to these when Talented, it seems like you need to stack quite a lot in order for it to make a significant different (unlike a Juggernaut who can get up to 25% Defense Chance relatively easily just from Talents).

On the other hand, Darkness Assassins get access to Dark Ward which will increase Shield Chance by 15% to a total of 35%. Also, Absorption seems to scale better with the rating as i currently have 33pts for +5%, whereas for Defense i have 47pts for +2.85%.

 

Obviously Absorption only mitigates a set amount of Damage whilst Defense will completely bypass it, but i just felt that the Assassin lent more towards using Shields.

Double Post. Edited December 23, 2011 by vdbswong

Healers like mitigation tanks more than avoidance tanks. Avoidance tanks have a bad habit of not dodging the big hitters and going splat.

Except in this game mitigation is not pure mitigation.

 

If you want to lower your chance of eating a full hit, stack def.

 

Def stacking is the way to go until you hit endgame content.

 

Refer to the compendium for more maths! *flee*

edited Edited December 24, 2011 by renegadeimp

Defense, for sure. You can defend before your shield even has a chance of going off and absorbing x%, right? Maths. Science. =P Refer compendium.

Check out this thread on SithWarrior. According to some of the theorycrafting (can't remember what page it's on) a balance of all 3 is fine (defense/shield/absorption). There's some good graphs in there.

Until there is proof that there actually exist diminishing returns, there is absolutely no reason to have a spread of stats. In fact the more of a stat you gain, the better it becomes to gain it.

 

Because gear is infinitely modular unlike in WoW, there is no reason to stack anything other than your main choice of defensive stat.

 

I am also unsure about accuracy. There is no actual experimentation in that about whether tanks need accuracy cap to hold threat. Furthermore, base accuracy is already 90%, so its not like you're whiffing all the time.

 

EDIT:

 

also the compendium on sith warrior is very, very wrong on its analysis of the different builds. Darkness/madness has lower single target dps than pure darkness? Really?

 

Also while the debuff from wither might stack, I very much doubt that the actual damage reduction stacks. Otherwise, why wouldn't you bring 8 darkness assassins and have -40% damage dealt?

Edited December 25, 2011 by theonepanda

Until you have an ungodly amount of absorption I'd say use the shield stat over defense. Our class has the best shielding chance and it will help our more avoidance tanking style easier for healers to heal as the damage incoming will be reduced overall and less spiky.

Shield has the worst returns on actual mitigation.

 

It is true that it will lower your chances of being hit more than defense will, but defense provides very good mitigation AND very good total hit reduction.

 

It is the best stat even until high amounts of rating...at that point you can choose to go absorption (highest return on total mitigation) or stay defense.

But defense doesn't defend against magic attacks right? whereas shielding will I thought.

I'm fairly certain shield is only physical type damage as well.

 

Furthermore, we're already the best magic tanks because of force shroud.

to me it would make more sence to go with absorb, being as it is that we have the best sheild chance in the game that SC and ABS would be our best stats. yes we will take consistant dmg but thats the point of a class that mitigates dmg instead of avoiding it. also tanks that mitigate dmg do not take spikey dmg whereas tanks that avoid dmg to bc they dont have to dmg reduction part.

Until there is proof that there actually exist diminishing returns, there is absolutely no reason to have a spread of stats. In fact the more of a stat you gain, the better it becomes to gain it.

 

Because gear is infinitely modular unlike in WoW, there is no reason to stack anything other than your main choice of defensive stat.

 

I am also unsure about accuracy. There is no actual experimentation in that about whether tanks need accuracy cap to hold threat. Furthermore, base accuracy is already 90%, so its not like you're whiffing all the time.

 

EDIT:

 

also the compendium on sith warrior is very, very wrong on its analysis of the different builds. Darkness/madness has lower single target dps than pure darkness? Really?

 

Also while the debuff from wither might stack, I very much doubt that the actual damage reduction stacks. Otherwise, why wouldn't you bring 8 darkness assassins and have -40% damage dealt?

 

Do you have any hard data to back that up? The guys at Sithwarrior have been theorycrafting this since early Beta.

 

The thread I originally posted was split from the original thread. The first post in the link has the rating graphs and you can find plenty of math to back it up, if you want. Obviously, this is all preliminary until there's a much larger level 50 sample size, but for where we're at now, it's about the most solid info we have.

 

Basically, Defense is definitely good, but you're not severely gimped if you favor another stat more than others.

Edited December 25, 2011 by Modyn

I'm fairly certain shield is only physical type damage as well.

 

Furthermore, we're already the best magic tanks because of force shroud.

 

Looked a little closer at it. Damage Reduction % is based on armor alone it looks like and protects against all types of damage (magic/melee). As far as I can tell the Damage Reduction % decreases damage taken on a normal hit.

 

Defense Chance being avoidance of ranged and melee attacks, with a smaller % of magic attack resistance.

 

Shield chance is ranged or melee, not magic (like you said), and the Shield Absorption % is how much damage is reduced when shield procs.

 

So...defense is the only thing that can defend us from magic beyond force shroud and armor rating? Am I misunderstanding something?

Edited December 25, 2011 by Annabelle

I noticed in the hybrid build no one puts value to "corrupted flesh" for 15% reduction on dot damage. Is this not something that would greatly benefit a tank and in many cases affect magic damage mitigation?

I noticed in the hybrid build no one puts value to "corrupted flesh" for 15% reduction on dot damage. Is this not something that would greatly benefit a tank and in many cases affect magic damage mitigation?

 

I don't know enough about the end game yet to see if this would really be an overall benefit over the other talents. Probably overall you don't take a lot of dot damage. So far around lvl 30 I have not come across much dot damage that wasn't avoidable (like standing in fire).

I noticed in the hybrid build no one puts value to "corrupted flesh" for 15% reduction on dot damage. Is this not something that would greatly benefit a tank and in many cases affect magic damage mitigation?

 

Note how Parisitism applies to Force Lightning because it is a periodic damage ability. Thus it would be logical to think that Corrupted Flesh would apply to all channeled period damage abilities as well. It needs testing, but it could be a much broader mitigation (albeit situational) than most are thinking.

I am curious as well about why take some talents like energy reducers for certain abilities like Torment / Fanatacism ext over talents like Parasitism? For a complete tankability wouldn't you want Parasitism and Corrupted Flesh over the energy reducers or even some damage increases?

Do you have any hard data to back that up? The guys at Sithwarrior have been theorycrafting this since early Beta.

 

The thread I originally posted was split from the original thread. The first post in the link has the rating graphs and you can find plenty of math to back it up, if you want. Obviously, this is all preliminary until there's a much larger level 50 sample size, but for where we're at now, it's about the most solid info we have.

 

Basically, Defense is definitely good, but you're not severely gimped if you favor another stat more than others.

 

I looked at the numbers given by TORHead. They simulate a fresh lvl 50 in greens.

 

Lets assume that no darkness tank (madness or pure) is going to shock w/o energize. Lets also assume they will not lightning w/o 3 stacks. Generously, you will get 1 useable shock every 6 seconds (thrash thrash saber shock, for ~force neutral combo). That puts getting 3 charges of the lightning thing at about 18 seconds, or 21 seconds for the full combo.

 

This deals 4k damage in greens, heals you for 9?% of your health. This equates to 0.4% hps. Doesn't seem terribly good, but whatever, we're concerned about damage here.

 

If we get even ONE Raze proc as madness (saber strike hits 3 times, thrash hits twice, and we have +9% crit from the last energize we used), we will do ~1.25x the damage of lightning, at the cost of 1 gcd as opposed to 2 gcd's spent channeling, where we cannot move, and without a force cost.

 

Furthermore, if we compare wither and death field, death field easily does twice the single target dps. However, I actually don't think death field has any place in a single target rotation (similar, perhaps slightly more damage than thrash, w/o any of the procs or crit bonuses).

 

Because there are TWO rolls (first def, then shield), any def you get will diminish shield. And vice versa. Thus spreading your stats results in the LEAST efficient defense.

 

Contrary to popular belief, stacking def is more likely to have you negate a hit than stacking absorb.

 

Obviously stacking shield is the greatest chance to negate a hit, but not by as much as def (100%) or by stacking absorb (up to 74%).

 

So...basically 3 choices here.

 

1. Max defense. Moderate high chance of negating full hit. Moderate high total mitigation.

2. Max shield. Very high chance of negating full hit. Very low total mitigation.

3. Max absorb, overflow into shield. Low chance of negating full hit. Very high total mitigation.

 

As you can see, maxing shield and maxing absorb + overflow are complete opposites in terms of how they mitigate. Defense is a safer middle ground, and better than absorb until you can max it (~500+ rating).

asdf misread. Edited December 26, 2011 by Wootle

Man those graphs are pretty psycadelic (also like, whoa man, i had to get an account to get access? way out there duuuude).

 

Anyway the deciding factor on who's right is...

 

whether there are diminishing returns on rating to percent or not.

 

If there ISN'T, which is what I assumed, stacking one rating will always be better.

 

Why?

 

Well think about it this way. Going from 0% def to 1% def gives you...1% damage reduction (99%/100%). Going from 99% to 100% def gives you 100% damage reduction (0%/1%). Obviously def is worth more going from 99% to 100% than it is from 0% to 1%.

 

Any other value of def to def+1% is going to be somewhere between those two extremes, in increasing value per point.

 

Same is true for shield and absorb.

 

Furthermore, I simulated all 3 types of absorb.

 

EDIT:

 

"I calculate a value I call "Squishiness", which is ratio of damage taken to the damage you would take with no armor, shield or avoidance."

 

This is an odd metric. Armor we will hold to be constant...it is dependent solely on ilvl (er...item roll). Furthermore, Armorings have only primary stats, whether we use Force Wielder or Resolve is up to you (i pick resolve, END stacking is silly), and has no effect on mitigation.

 

My metrics were total damage mitigated, and chance to eat full hit.

 

Also I still don't see how a split would be better in any scenario (until you cap a stat). Not only does what i said before mean stacking a single stat in a vacuum would be better, but also stacking one actively makes the other worse.

 

Think about this. If we have 50% def, we only use shield on 50% of the hits. If we have 75% def, we only shield on 25% of the hits. This devalues shield, the more def we have.

 

Vice versa, if we have 50% shield, our def only mitigates 50% of the damage that would've gone though. If we have 75% shield, our def only mitigates 25% of the damage that would've gone though.

 

The only synergistic ratings are shield and absorb...but because absorb scales nearly twice as fast as shield, we actually have better success with total mitigation by maxing absorb and then stacking shield.

Edited December 26, 2011 by theonepanda

Also I still don't see how a split would be better in any scenario (until you cap a stat). Not only does what i said before mean stacking a single stat in a vacuum would be better, but also stacking one actively makes the other worse.

 

Think about this. If we have 50% def, we only use shield on 50% of the hits. If we have 75% def, we only shield on 25% of the hits. This devalues shield, the more def we have.

 

Vice versa, if we have 50% shield, our def only mitigates 50% of the damage that would've gone though. If we have 75% shield, our def only mitigates 25% of the damage that would've gone though.

 

The only synergistic ratings are shield and absorb...but because absorb scales nearly twice as fast as shield, we actually have better success with total mitigation by maxing absorb and then stacking shield.

 

Split is always better. Diminishing returns.

 

The question in our case is, when do we stop stacking attribute A and start with B (e.g. Shield, Defense etc). Maxing one thing would be terrible, you need a combination of all of them. If diminishing returns here are the same as in wow you would get r***d by them before you can hit 60% avoidance. Im pulling numbers out of my a.s.s. right now, I hope I was able to explain what I mean.

 

 

 

Think about this. If we have 50% def, we only use shield on 50% of the hits. If we have 75% def, we only shield on 25% of the hits. This devalues shield, the more def we have.

While you are right here, the amount of stats needed to increase your defence from 50% to 75% will be just ridiculous. Instead, you can invest in Shield AND Absorb thus increasing your survivability / total damage mitigation alot.

 

I am not sure if you are forgetting about diminishing returns, but it felt like it when I was reading your post.

 

 

Regards

I looked at the numbers given by TORHead.

 

The Torhead numbers aren't accurate right now. They just need a bit of time to get the numbers right I think (it's a new game after all). But until then, if you're wondering, I've got a few of the formulas saved to a text file:

 

Saber Strike = 99% Weapon + 99% MBonus + 0 (3 attacks) (Weapon)

Thrash = 99% Weapon + 148% MBonus + 119.14 (2 attacks) (Weapon)

Shock = 185% Fbonus + 297.85 (Energy)

Force Lightning = 316% FBonus + 508.76 (3s, 4 ticks) (Energy)

Discharge (Dark) = 74% FBonus + 119.14 (AOE) (Internal)

Wither = 94% FBonus + 151.34 (AOE) (Kinetic)

Lacerate = 48% Weapon + 71% MBonus + 114.31 (AOE) (Weapon)

Assassinate = 206% Weapon + 309% MBonus + 497.49 (Weapon)

Maul = 158% Weapon + 237% MBonus + 379.96 (Weapon)

 

The other formulas are somewhere around the Sithwarrior forums. I've been mainly looking at the deep Darkness build, so I haven't looked much at Death Field or Raze yet. Raze will be a pain to model due to possible DoT clipping.