I've been a space sim junkie since the old wing commander days. I have to say, this game is not anything like a good space sim. I've never encountered a space sim that was this bad before. There's no real learning curve, and I am sorry, endless pages of text is not a tutorial, its a knee-board manual. I found GSF to be the most frustrating space sim ever. Even EVE eases you into the game, as big and unforgiving as it is.

I hate to keep saying it, but Star Wars Galaxies Jump to Lightspeed was miles ahead of this pile of crap.

I've been a space sim junkie since the old wing commander days. I have to say, this game is not anything like a good space sim. I've never encountered a space sim that was this bad before. There's no real learning curve, and I am sorry, endless pages of text is not a tutorial, its a knee-board manual. I found GSF to be the most frustrating space sim ever. Even EVE eases you into the game, as big and unforgiving as it is.

 

I hate to keep saying it, but Star Wars Galaxies Jump to Lightspeed was miles ahead of this pile of crap.

I dont want to say you are wrong.... but you are.

This is not a space sim.Not even pretended to be one.

I've been a space sim junkie since the old wing commander days. I have to say, this game is not anything like a good space sim.

It's also not anything like a good RTS, nor anything like a good board game.

I've been a space sim junkie since the old wing commander days. I have to say, this game is not anything like a good space sim. I've never encountered a space sim that was this bad before. There's no real learning curve, and I am sorry, endless pages of text is not a tutorial, its a knee-board manual. I found GSF to be the most frustrating space sim ever. Even EVE eases you into the game, as big and unforgiving as it is.

 

I hate to keep saying it, but Star Wars Galaxies Jump to Lightspeed was miles ahead of this pile of crap.

Ugh... this has been said a bazillion times already, but people still aren't getting it... IT'S A GAME... not a Space Sim... play it (or not) for what it is, but don't classify it as something it isn't.

SWG:JTL was miles ahead because this GAME wasn't meant to be JTL. It's actually pretty original, like it or not.

I hated GSF when I first started. You get plopped into a group where people are MILES ahead of you. You need to be on top of them to be be in range, so you get blasted out the sky pretty quickly.

You need to do quite a few GSF to be able to afford a few upgrades here and there to be in with a slightly better chance (You might even get a kill!) Very exciting getting your first kill (hahah!)

I will admit, I do not play SWTOR for GSF, I enjoy the levelling and crafting a lot more.

But I totally understand where the OP is coming from, GSF is frustrating. In WZs it is tiered and you are bolstered, in GSF you might as well be flying around in a cola can with a fly swat.

I hated GSF when I first started. You get plopped into a group where people are MILES ahead of you. You need to be on top of them to be be in range, so you get blasted out the sky pretty quickly.

 

You need to do quite a few GSF to be able to afford a few upgrades here and there to be in with a slightly better chance (You might even get a kill!) Very exciting getting your first kill (hahah!)

 

I will admit, I do not play SWTOR for GSF, I enjoy the levelling and crafting a lot more.

 

But I totally understand where the OP is coming from, GSF is frustrating. In WZs it is tiered and you are bolstered, in GSF you might as well be flying around in a cola can with a fly swat.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=755330

Read ,look and be educated. It's skill not gear that makes the gap huge.

To BGuilbeau,

I agree that there needs to be a better tutorial, the one they have is abysmal and does little to nothing as to helping new players get ready for their first game. I wish they would address this, as well as add new player bonus req to help get them going.

PvE likely wont happen, but moving targets would be nice as would tutorials by ship type.

As to playing now vs then, hoooo boy you have no idea. In those days many of the ships were much more powerful than today and there were a TON of good players in groups. There were more than today when I started in December and matches were straight up painful.

That was literally what drove me to keep playing though, pure spite and a desire to do better. IMO it wasn't too hard despite being woefully outgunned at the start. I managed to find other people to play with and as time went on I learned more and more until these days I feel like I have got a good grasp on GSF.

Understanding what I do now I can play on stock ships and do okay, sometimes good (even against groups). Its a matter of playing through the quick deaths and keeping an open mind so you can learn the tools to be successful. It is likely not for everyone, but IMO everyone has an equal chance to learn... there is no bar to success, and beating good opponents is not impossible.

The single biggest mistake I see people making is doing the same thing over and over and over. Try to evaluate your play to see where u went wrong. Pay attention to things like your surroundings, LOS, where the other ships are etc.

(also just to note, there is simply no good way with our player base to get consistent noob vs noob matches short of not allowing veterans to play (which is not fair IMO)

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=755330

Read ,look and be educated. It's skill not gear that makes the gap huge.

Perhaps you should read this thread and be educated. The most common complaint people here seem to have is that they are seemingly always pitted against pre-mades or new players are finding themselves constantly playing against very experienced players. As several here have pointed out, most PvP games tend to break people into tiers, so more experienced players are pitted against more experienced players, new players against new players, etc. this doesn't happen in GSF.

And if, as you say, Skill > Gear in GSF (not that I disagree with you on that, because I definitely think you are right about it) then it's even MORE important to put newer players against newer players.

Of course, it's a "chicken or egg" situation. Back when I was playing GSF a few months ago there simply weren't enough players to have any sort of tiered matchmaking. But one can make the argument that there aren't enough players to have tiered matchmaking because there isn't tiered matchmaking: so new players play a few times, get farmed relentlessly (or spawncamped), and quit.

Then there are doubtless some that don't queue because they can't pick their gamestyle. Me, I hated hated hated TDM. I quit playing GSF for several reasons, TDM was definitely a part of that. But again: there aren't enough players to let people choose to opt out of TDM. And maybe there aren't enough players because they CAN'T opt out of the game style they don't like (I'm sure many folks love TDM and hate domination).

But I think the first example is more significant. New players get farmed by experienced players that are ALSO well geared. They can suffer through that or just go play something that is actually fun.

No one is saying it shouldn't take time to learn GSF. But it would be more fun and would attract more people if newer players were able to learn against people of similar experience.

Perhaps you should read this thread and be educated. The most common complaint people here seem to have is that they are seemingly always pitted against pre-mades or new players are finding themselves constantly playing against very experienced players. As several here have pointed out, most PvP games tend to break people into tiers, so more experienced players are pitted against more experienced players, new players against new players, etc. this doesn't happen in GSF.

 

And if, as you say, Skill > Gear in GSF (not that I disagree with you on that, because I definitely think you are right about it) then it's even MORE important to put newer players against newer players.

 

Of course, it's a "chicken or egg" situation. Back when I was playing GSF a few months ago there simply weren't enough players to have any sort of tiered matchmaking. But one can make the argument that there aren't enough players to have tiered matchmaking because there isn't tiered matchmaking: so new players play a few times, get farmed relentlessly (or spawncamped), and quit.

 

Then there are doubtless some that don't queue because they can't pick their gamestyle. Me, I hated hated hated TDM. I quit playing GSF for several reasons, TDM was definitely a part of that. But again: there aren't enough players to let people choose to opt out of TDM. And maybe there aren't enough players because they CAN'T opt out of the game style they don't like (I'm sure many folks love TDM and hate domination).

 

But I think the first example is more significant. New players get farmed by experienced players that are ALSO well geared. They can suffer through that or just go play something that is actually fun.

 

No one is saying it shouldn't take time to learn GSF. But it would be more fun and would attract more people if newer players were able to learn against people of similar experience.

But... but... We have matchmaking!!!

Skill is the biggest factor in the game ATM. If a newb has a mastered ship vs. a skilled player in a stock ship, the better skilled player is going to win. Why? Because the gear only helps AFTER you've figured out what you're supposed to be looking for, angles of attack, when to regroup vs when to engage, etc. Equipment will make the task easier, but not perform the task for you, hence why the skill v gear argument skews in favor of skill

I know that you don't disagree, I just wanted to give a deeper explanation. A more robost matchmaking system is needed, cross server or not.

Thinking about it...

It's not skilled players vs. new players that's the big issue. You could try to break it into tiers, but all that will do is remove the one big learning curve when you first start to multiple more, if smaller, learning curves every time you got bumped up a tier. You're not going to improve as quickly as a pilot if you're never having to go up against someone more experienced and equipped than you. Think about it: how many games have you played of GSF that were determined by a single player? A team having a single true, blue ace on their side is great but it's far from guaranteeing them a win.

I think the biggest problem are the premades. As a new player I think it's healthy to have a wide range of skill on the enemy team (and your team as well). However, when half or more of the team is not only experienced and decked out with excellent ships, they're moving as a unified and coordinated force, then it feels like a kick in the yambag. When I first started playing GSF a little while back there was no worse experience to queuing up, looking to get some more practice, and have any chance of that practice get wiped out because of a coordinated premade.

My ideas:

1. If we did break it into "tiers" it should only be two tiers: a "newbie" tier for your first five or so games, long enough to get you practice in actual combat and enough req to get a few upgrades. The other tier is everyone else.

2. Pre-mades of three or more people restricted to games where the opposing team will also have a pre-made.

3. Introduce rated GSF matches with significant rewards and incentives to be busy pew pewing other ambitious pilots and not poor folks in their first ever GSF game.

4. Cross server queues. Should go without saying, but if we were to start segregating the GSF players into different tiers or theoretical rated GSF games then we'd see queue times go up. Cross server queuing would help remedy that.

5. Pre-mades outside of rated GSF matches could be given reduced rewards. So you'd have an easier time winning, but you'll be seeing less reward for it.

Of course, much of that could be nullified simply by not being in a group while queued up. If y'all all queue up at the same time, there's still a solid chance you'll all be together when the queue pops.

With that said, I wouldn't be as solid of a pilot now if I hadn't started off occasionally having to try and deal with more experienced pilots.

1. If we did break it into "tiers" it should only be two tiers: a "newbie" tier for your first five or so games, long enough to get you practice in actual combat and enough req to get a few upgrades. The other tier is everyone else.

2. Pre-mades of three or more people restricted to games where the opposing team will also have a pre-made.

3. Introduce rated GSF matches with significant rewards and incentives to be busy pew pewing other ambitious pilots and not poor folks in their first ever GSF game.

4. Cross server queues. Should go without saying, but if we were to start segregating the GSF players into different tiers or theoretical rated GSF games then we'd see queue times go up. Cross server queuing would help remedy that.

5. Pre-mades outside of rated GSF matches could be given reduced rewards. So you'd have an easier time winning, but you'll be seeing less reward for it.

1.: I'm against tiers in random PvP. A good tutorial would solve beginner's problems to some degree. Another, probably even more helpful function would be some sort of duel-mode or test-map with unlimited access to all ships, components and upgrades.

2.: There are people who want to play with their friends but aren't good players. If they meet another premade that consists of good players they would basically be punished for wanting to play together. I don't think that's the goal here. Also: queue times.

3.: I'd love to see ranked GSF but I'm against a rating system in "normal" GSF games. Ground-PvP has no rating system in non-ranked games so why should GSF have one? The main difference are the rewards. In ground game you actually improve your character, that is incentive for most palyers to play it, even if they aren't good. In GSF you ge absolutely nothing to improve your character and there is no motivation to play it other than GSF itself.

4.: Cross server queues qould be awesome (EU servers should even mix languages if there aren't enough players to form an one-language-group at night). Again, I'm against tiers and such things in random PvP.

5.: No. Not in any case someone should get punished for playing together with their friends. It's an MMO.