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Here's an idea: Get rid of team ranked and focus on improving solo ranked.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Here's an idea: Get rid of team ranked and focus on improving solo ranked.

JediMasterAlex's Avatar


JediMasterAlex
06.05.2019 , 12:16 PM | #71
Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP View Post
Because person yyyy chose not to queue that day because person xxxx could beat him, which theoretically would lower person yyyy's rating, person yyyy has an artificially higher rating than if it was truly random. Person yyyy literally decided he was going to do something else that entire afternoon so as not to have a chance at playing person xxxx.
So for tanks and healers, that thinking makes sense, and certainly does happen, because if you are a tank or healer, you can only face other tanks/healers and you will never be paired them. But what about for dps players? The only thing I can think of is for the two highest rated dps players that will get matched up against each other most of the time, but that still is unlikely to determine the outcome, because either could end up with 3 teammates way worse than the other, and one dps player does not have as big an impact as a tank/healer.

I guess my point is that if someone is queue dodging as a dps, they're just playing themselves. I don't think it really benefits them unless they are doing it in a way that I'm not aware of. Also, if a dps is that afraid of another dps beating them, I highly doubt they'd be able to maintain a high rating in the first place.

Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP View Post
As with everything else in the game, practically every problem comes back to low population.
I certainly agree with that.

Banderal's Avatar


Banderal
06.05.2019 , 12:18 PM | #72
Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterAlex View Post
Let's start with the definition of sportsmanship: conduct (such as fairness, respect for one's opponent, and graciousness in winning or losing) becoming to one participating in a sport.
Well, we have seemingly the same definition, but I guess I just interpret it differently. You seem to equate "respect for one's opponent" as always expecting them to be just as good as you are, and that they are never clearly inferior.

I dunno, I was taught the idea of "don't run up the score" type of thing. Your examples were mostly of the NBA team vs. NBA team type - but what I'm talking about is when the NBA team arrives to play the grade school team. You may not think the disparity is that large between teams (in regs I'm talking here - ranked should have a different standard I agree), and if so, then I guess we can stop right there. Because that's the kind of disparity I'm talking about, and I think it happens plenty.

Should the NBA team be playing all it's starters, and going full steam in that situation? Should they be playing their hardest, and lets be real, racking up hundreds of points while the grade school team really can't score at all? And it's all okay, because the NBA team is showing respect for their opponents by not letting up on the gas, because those grade schoolers could come back at any minute and win the game?

I don't think, when I see my team camp the enemy spawn and farm them, there is ANYTHING in that or in any of the behavior of the people doing it, that shows respect for the enemy. You'll never convince me that they are doing that because, oh we have to, or they might regroup and be able to take a node back from us. That behavior is all about humiliating the other team. "We PWN THEM!" <-- that's the thought I believe almost all players have. Not, "we have to keep them disorganized or they have a chance of coming back".

I'm all for the better team should decisively win and be done with it. But that doesn't mean humiliating the other team into the ground.

Ranked arenas - no, I'm never going to sit one of those out (if I still played them). But a lowbie arena, where people are in theory learning their class, and potentially learning pvp period... and you are telling me that, to make it extreme, given 1 v 4 situation, it shows sportsmanship for the 4 to just trash that one enemy? If you think so then I guess we just disagree. The 2 or 3 vs 4, I'd say that's get a bit murky. I usually look at the class levels in lowbie. I just disagree with your disagree for those... if I can try to make it more fair in lowbie, I'll continue to do so for the week or so I have left here. Sorry if I ruin one of your lowbie games.

Slippery When'wet, FistFullOfCandy - SF

JediMasterAlex's Avatar


JediMasterAlex
06.05.2019 , 01:24 PM | #73
Quote: Originally Posted by Banderal View Post
Well, we have seemingly the same definition, but I guess I just interpret it differently. You seem to equate "respect for one's opponent" as always expecting them to be just as good as you are, and that they are never clearly inferior.
That's not exactly what I meant. Respecting your opponent doesn't mean expecting them to be just as good as you, but it does mean treating them like an equal, and taking them seriously as a threat, even if you know that you're better. Underestimating opponents too much is not only disrespectful, but dangerous to your own chances to win as well, because your assessment may be wrong, or your attitude might affect how you play.

Quote: Originally Posted by Banderal View Post
I dunno, I was taught the idea of "don't run up the score" type of thing. Your examples were mostly of the NBA team vs. NBA team type - but what I'm talking about is when the NBA team arrives to play the grade school team. You may not think the disparity is that large between teams (in regs I'm talking here - ranked should have a different standard I agree), and if so, then I guess we can stop right there. Because that's the kind of disparity I'm talking about, and I think it happens plenty.

Should the NBA team be playing all it's starters, and going full steam in that situation? Should they be playing their hardest, and lets be real, racking up hundreds of points while the grade school team really can't score at all? And it's all okay, because the NBA team is showing respect for their opponents by not letting up on the gas, because those grade schoolers could come back at any minute and win the game?
I don't think that's a very good example to be honest, because when you're playing in regs, you have no reason to assume that the other team is that much worse than you. But let's say you do start dominating them, how can you so readily and confidently assume that your team is the NBA team vs their grade school team? What if your assessment is wrong, and they do come back to win. I guess I can grant to you that there could be just absurdly mismatched teams to the point that it's so noncompetitive that it's pointless. But if that's the case, wouldn't finishing it faster simply be better for everyone involved? What can an NBA team even do to make it fair vs a grade school team? Intentionally miss? What would be the point of that?

Quote: Originally Posted by Banderal View Post
I don't think, when I see my team camp the enemy spawn and farm them, there is ANYTHING in that or in any of the behavior of the people doing it, that shows respect for the enemy. You'll never convince me that they are doing that because, oh we have to, or they might regroup and be able to take a node back from us. That behavior is all about humiliating the other team. "We PWN THEM!" <-- that's the thought I believe almost all players have. Not, "we have to keep them disorganized or they have a chance of coming back".
I don't think you can ever fault people in a competitive environment for wanting to win the game. It doesn't matter what their reasons are. We'll probably have to agree to disagree on this point.

Quote: Originally Posted by Banderal View Post
I'm all for the better team should decisively win and be done with it. But that doesn't mean humiliating the other team into the ground.
I don't think dominating another team is necessarily humiliating. I'd feel much more humiliated if I was getting dominated so hard that they felt they had to take pity on me and take their foot off the gas. That's far more disrespectful in my opinion.

Quote: Originally Posted by Banderal View Post
But a lowbie arena, where people are in theory learning their class, and potentially learning pvp period... and you are telling me that, to make it extreme, given 1 v 4 situation, it shows sportsmanship for the 4 to just trash that one enemy? If you think so then I guess we just disagree. The 2 or 3 vs 4, I'd say that's get a bit murky.
Here's the problem with the 1v4, and I touched on this before, how do you even decide what's fair? Do you just 1v1 one at a time? I guess, you could if everyone agrees. But what if one of the people doesn't want to be part of another player's learning experience? What if they are there to win games, because after all, that is the goal of playing in pvp matches. It's not fair to them to take matters into your own hands and essentially modify the game mode that they are playing just because you personally think it would be more fair. That seems quite selfish to me. I also don't think people will be apt to learn very much if you baby them too much (granted, they won't learn much from a complete beat down either, but still).

I don't think it would be wrong to just quickly win the 2 rounds in like 1 minute, and move on to the next game that's an actual 4v4. Again, I think it's on Bioware to prevent that kind of thing from happening, not the players. And I'm not a hypocrite either. I was in a 2.4 ranked game last week, and I was perfectly happy to lose quickly to the four people. It wasn't their fault that they got put into that match up, and there was no reason for them to not dispatch us quickly. I've been in plenty of 3v4s too, some of which I've won. Everyone is going to get unfair games like that every once in a while. You just have to accept it and move on to the next one.

Quote: Originally Posted by Banderal View Post
Sorry if I ruin one of your lowbie games.
Truly, I don't play lowbies, so no worries there at least

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
06.05.2019 , 02:14 PM | #74
Geez I created quite the philosophical debate. All I really meant was that: I think the overwhelming majority of people desire fair matches against similarly skilled opponents, and guys like the guy i overheard ruin the meaningfulness for everyone, 100% "legitimately".

Stuff like the 2v4 in lowbies is a population issue. If there are 8 people in queue and only 6 take the pop, but the 2 that didn't were on the same team, and no one is avaliable to backfill, what is BW supposed to do? And yes, I've been on both sides of this equation (i.e. I've had lowbies where my side had 4 v 2 and matches where it was 2 on my side vs 4).

Banderal's Avatar


Banderal
06.05.2019 , 03:01 PM | #75
Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP View Post
Geez I created quite the philosophical debate. All I really meant was that: I think the overwhelming majority of people desire fair matches against similarly skilled opponents, and guys like the guy i overheard ruin the meaningfulness for everyone, 100% "legitimately".

Stuff like the 2v4 in lowbies is a population issue. If there are 8 people in queue and only 6 take the pop, but the 2 that didn't were on the same team, and no one is avaliable to backfill, what is BW supposed to do? And yes, I've been on both sides of this equation (i.e. I've had lowbies where my side had 4 v 2 and matches where it was 2 on my side vs 4).
Hey, I was just about to start the name calling part, and you go and throw water on the fire!

Actually, I agree with a lot of JMA's points. I agree that a decisive win vs. drawing it out is better. And the arena thing, I kinda go back and forth on. I can see the same point there; "better to get it over with and move on to the next one". But I've also been the single person on my team vs. 4 - and for those times I appreciated it when they gave me 1v1 matches. I mean, I still lost, but it was a lot more fun for me.

I don't see how farming the other team leads to a quicker win (except AHG) though, except, as I mentioned, if the point is to not allow them a chance to sort of catch their breath and regroup. I just don't think that's the point for 99.99999999999999% of the cases where it happens.

I think our differences mostly come down to how much credit we are giving to our fellow players. I expect the worst, and so just assume that everyone behind their keyboards are being jerks about winning, and are actively rubbing it in basically. Where I guess JMA has a better opinion of humanity, and allows that they are winning out of respect.

Slippery When'wet, FistFullOfCandy - SF

Banderal's Avatar


Banderal
06.05.2019 , 03:13 PM | #76
Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterAlex View Post
What if they are there to win games, because after all, that is the goal of playing in pvp matches.
I think this is the heart of our disagreement, and I'll admit my take on it is probably not the usual one. I'll also say up front that for ranked I 100% agree (just to avoid that misunderstanding). For ranked, when I got into a match, I did my utmost to win, no matter about "fair".

But for regs, I don't go in with my top goal being to win the game. My top goal is to have a fun match. And for me a fun match is one that I consider "fair". I've typed many times now that I'd rather have a close match and lose, than to have an easy win. So I guess I'm a bit of a hypocrite, in that I'll rant some about people coming into a match and playing "deathmatch" because that's what they want to do instead of "playing the true game"... but here I am sometimes trying to purposely make a match more "fair" by my definition, when yeah, it's probably true that the top goal should probably be to win it. Well, I'm only human. I guess I'll revise my "be perfect" plan and mark that for tomorrow.

Slippery When'wet, FistFullOfCandy - SF

JediMasterAlex's Avatar


JediMasterAlex
06.06.2019 , 08:40 AM | #77
Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP View Post
Stuff like the 2v4 in lowbies is a population issue. If there are 8 people in queue and only 6 take the pop, but the 2 that didn't were on the same team, and no one is avaliable to backfill, what is BW supposed to do?
They could just cancel the match and boot everyone out of the warzone as if it never happened. They already have a mechanic for that in 8v8 warzones when not enough people join. I doubt it would be that hard for them to tweak it for arenas and only allow them to start when full.

Quote: Originally Posted by Banderal View Post
Hey, I was just about to start the name calling part, and you go and throw water on the fire!
omg, same

It's all good though, just a friendly disagreement.

Banderal's Avatar


Banderal
06.06.2019 , 09:04 AM | #78
Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterAlex View Post
They could just cancel the match and boot everyone out of the warzone as if it never happened. They already have a mechanic for that in 8v8 warzones when not enough people join. I doubt it would be that hard for them to tweak it for arenas and only allow them to start when full.
I wish they would do that for 8s also. There's another game I play that does that, after you accept it show how many it's still waiting on, and eventually, if everyone doesn't accept, it abandons the match and puts the rest of us back at the top of the queue. Of course, after a recent patch, they bugged that mechanic somehow, and it was getting a bunch of false negatives for the "accept count" and no one could PvP. I guess there are potential down sides.

Slippery When'wet, FistFullOfCandy - SF

TrixxieTriss's Avatar


TrixxieTriss
06.06.2019 , 03:50 PM | #79
Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterAlex View Post
They could just cancel the match and boot everyone out of the warzone as if it never happened. They already have a mechanic for that in 8v8 warzones when not enough people join. I doubt it would be that hard for them to tweak it for arenas and only allow them to start when full.
The other option is not to make uneven sides because in my experience with lowbies it will constantly make 2v3 if there are 5 people in the queue or 3v4 if there are 7 people in the queue (and no, those lopsided numbers aren’t because people have declined).
Then there are other matches where it’s started out as 2v3 and after the first round it back fills the team with 3 and it becomes 2v4. Ive seen this happen so many times that it’s laughable. These matches should just end because they are a waste of time.

ColorfulCaiques's Avatar


ColorfulCaiques
06.08.2019 , 01:57 PM | #80
Quote: Originally Posted by foxmob View Post
I'm not endorsing that person's opinion, but it's pretty clear that s/he considers q-dodging cheating. so picking and choosing when to queue based on who is in the queue is, in that person's opinion, queue dodging. whether you agree or not is fine, but the idea seems pretty straightforward.

I also feel that this kind of selective queuing is perfectly reasonable in solos. not so much in granked. but opinions and bu-tholes...
To clarify, I don't think que dodging is outright cheating. Wintrading is. Backfilling was (before they fixed it). Botting is. Que syncing is. However, it's a form of que manipulation and it's not honest play at best and nefarious at worst.
Don't flatter yourself, EA/BW. I'm just here by the grace of a referral.