Silenceo Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 (edited) Well 2 more problems if they are that close to the fleet then they arent going to be any use as an ambush 1 and 2 as I believe I said I dont think the civies are going to care. They arent going to believe that the DI cares about the Debris field even the one next o them so they will just go in for the stuff. If they are near enough to the Debris field that it would ward off the civies, then that will cause the Agents to ask why? why be so close to a debris feild that could potentially harm your ships or cause you to have no where to run when the time comes. If some one comes in and puts you between them and the debris field you cant back off should you want to. So why? means we are back to square one. You put ships that close to the debris feild looks suspicious the Hapan agents ask why they look into it they discover the fighters. It is easy for us to think of that since we are looking at every advantage that either side can get, The characters themselves while they may suspect something, they likely will not instantly jump to "ITS A TRAP!." As for the fleet being close to that part of the field it doesn't even need to be that close to discourage, just in firing range. The goal of that is so that as soon as the AoW ships are in range the DI open fire to distract them while the ships deploy in the middle of/behind them. Add in the chaos that the stealthed capital ships might be causing and it becomes even more likely that they not see the smaller craft coming en mass behind their front lines. Once they start firing they will be noticed of course due to just how many of the ships there are and laser bolts are not exactly hard to see. Of the things that could happen in the beginning of the battle, noticing these ships before they strike is only more likely than the AoW detecting the stealth ships before they unstealth since they do not even know they are against stealth ships yet. Edit: It isn't the fact that the DI care about the stuff in the Debris field, they likely could care less. It is the fact that they all know that 2 factions are at war. How would it look if in the middle of WWII somebody went fishing close to a fleet of war ships? They would be ordered to leave or to be taken captive/blown out of the water. Not even a matter of the fish they are fishing for. Its a matter of they know they might be spies or give intel to their enemies. They are not going to risk it. Edited February 28, 2014 by Silenceo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 (edited) It is easy for us to think of that since we are looking at every advantage that either side can get, The characters themselves while they may suspect something, they likely will not instantly jump to "ITS A TRAP!." As for the fleet being close to that part of the field it doesn't even need to be that close to discourage, just in firing range. The goal of that is so that as soon as the AoW ships are in range the DI open fire to distract them while the ships deploy in the middle of/behind them. Add in the chaos that the stealthed capital ships might be causing and it becomes even more likely that they not see the smaller craft coming en mass behind their front lines. Once they start firing they will be noticed of course due to just how many of the ships there are and laser bolts are not exactly hard to see. Of the things that could happen in the beginning of the battle, noticing these ships before they strike is only more likely than the AoW detecting the stealth ships before they unstealth since they do not even know they are against stealth ships yet. IF the capital ships are only barely within weapons range the fighters are never going to be behind or in the middle of the AoW ships coming in. Also the moment they move out of the asteroids they will appear on all AoW scopes. with that range its not going to affect the AoW in the slightest. Also check my edit from before. It doesnt matter. The Civies know where they can not go. The Hapan intel job is to find out about the DI. Any place a Civi cant go is the exact place an Agent is going to find out about 1 way or another. Smugglers and agents sneak by this stuff all the time. you want to read more closely on it check the edit. Edit: and as I said the Civi knows where not to go, thus the CIA know where to get intel. If the civies know where the fleet is and know where to stay away from then the Intel agents know where they are scanning and where they are sending infiltrators or smugglers or what ever they get their hands on to get that intel. This is a planet with a known information trade. There is no way they arent going to get that information with out a counter-intelligence group something the DI doesnt really have. Edited February 28, 2014 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 (edited) IF the capital ships are only barely within weapons range the fighters are never going to be behind or in the middle of the AoW ships coming in. Also the moment they move out of the asteroids they will appear on all AoW scopes. with that range its not going to affect the AoW in the slightest. Also check my edit from before. It doesnt matter. The Civies know where they can not go. The Hapan intel job is to find out about the DI. Any place a Civi cant go is the exact place an Agent is going to find out about 1 way or another. Smugglers and agents sneak by this stuff all the time. you want to read more closely on it check the edit. Alright then please tell me, if somehow a CREDITABLE rumor is started and reaches Hapan ears, how long has the Kaggath been going? In order for the Hapans to be able to first hear about the rumor, devise a way to dig deeper, and then executing it, it likely is going to take less time than it takes for the AoW to strike at it. That isn't even counting the time it would take for the first pieces of the rumor to surface which would take a while considering it likely will not happen instantly. If the AoW doesn't attack right away and instead waits for full lintel then congrats, you just gave them time to build more stealth ships you did not know they possessed. If not you are running in there blind with very little Intel. It is also good to note that if there are popular rumors concerning what may lead people to discover the ships, something tells me the DI are smart enough to change the defensive formation so that they are no longer placed there or they are relocated. So which will it be? Rushing headlong into a defensive masterminds lair or sitting back to learn more about it allowing them to create more ships that can win 2-3 vs 1 against your own while you try to piece together vague rumors? It is your call. Edit: As for the whole "checking where civies can't go" thing that has a few limitations...Of course they can't approach the fleet, does that spell out instantly that there is something out of the ordinary? No. It points out that the DI do not like unauthorized vessels coming anywhere close to their fleet. Most people wouldn't give it a second thought. If it was on a grand scale between systems and entire planets that would make sense, but one small part of a single planet near a military force? Most will wave that as making them too edgy. Not much to really investigate concerning that. Edited: If a few freighters approached space near the AoW shipyards in a time of war and did not relay proper codes, what would they do? *My bet is on board them since they do not seem like ones to just blast them out of the sky* If neither then they have the most lax security ever and could easily be sabotaged. Edited February 28, 2014 by Silenceo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 (edited) Alright then please tell me, if somehow a CREDITABLE rumor is started and reaches Hapan ears, how long has the Kaggath been going? In order for the Hapans to be able to first hear about the rumor, devise a way to dig deeper, and then executing it, it likely is going to take less time than it takes for the AoW to strike at it. That isn't even counting the time it would take for the first pieces of the rumor to surface which would take a while considering it likely will not happen instantly. If the AoW doesn't attack right away and instead waits for full lintel then congrats, you just gave them time to build more stealth ships you did not know they possessed. If not you are running in there blind with very little Intel. It is also good to note that if there are popular rumors concerning what may lead people to discover the ships, something tells me the DI are smart enough to change the defensive formation so that they are no longer placed there or they are relocated. So which will it be? Rushing headlong into a defensive masterminds lair or sitting back to learn more about it allowing them to create more ships that can win 2-3 vs 1 against your own while you try to piece together vague rumors? It is your call. The AoW out builds the DI they can probably build 2-3 ships in the time it takes the DI to build 1 of these, not to mention they dont have the Forge, the built ships will be standard Harrowers with stealth tech, they wont be Rakatta upgraded. Secondly it will be instantaneous for the civies to know where the fleet is positioned the instant the Hapans know where it is they will know where to look it will take at least a couple weeks to launch the attack and that is more time then is needed to gather this intel. AkA if the capital ships are close enough to the Debris feild to stop civies from going there the Agents will look in that area of the feild any where the Civies cant go the Hapans will spend man power to find out about. That's instaneous. The Civies know where the visible capital ships are they are visible so rumor mill is technically instant there. If they start losing ships mining at locations not near the Capital ships and start losing them, intel on a planet like this could again spread within a day. 2 Weeks.... 2 weeks to even fly here that is more then enough time for Intel to spread and the Hapans to discover it. The DI OCF ships are instantly known thus the area to search is instantly known. If they arent near the fighters then rumors of unexplained deaths take a matter of a couple days max to circulate. And even if they get time, they dont have any Rakatta building technicians or any Rakatta tech faciltiy lieing around to make sure their Harrowers are upgraded with Rakatta tech. The newer ones wont have the Rakatta tech advantage and teh AoW builds faster. Wedge losses nothing by waiting on intel. Edit: clearly not listening, nothing needs be out of the ordinary, the hapans arent looking for out of the ordinary, they want ship position composition and strategy. They know where the civies cant go. That means classified information, THeir jobs are to get classified information. it doesnt matter if they suspect a trap or not, they are searching because that is their jobs. Are you getting it yet? Edit 2: you are correct and guess what. An intel group knowing where the fleet is wants in any way. They dont have to be up to anything for an intel group to want to know more intel about a fleet that civies cant get. If it is classified THEY WANT IT. thats the job of an intel group. Edited February 28, 2014 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 (edited) The AoW out builds the DI they can probably build 2-3 ships in the time it takes the DI to build 1 of these, not to mention they dont have the Forge, the built ships will be standard Harrowers with stealth tech, they wont be Rakatta upgraded. Secondly it will be instantaneous for the civies to know where the fleet is positioned the instant the Hapans know where it is they will know where to look it will take at least a couple weeks to launch the attack and that is more time then is needed to gather this intel. AkA if the capital ships are close enough to the Debris feild to stop civies from going there the Agents will look in that area of the feild any where the Civies cant go the Hapans will spend man power to find out about. That's instaneous. The Civies know where the visible capital ships are they are visible so rumor mill is technically instant there. If they start losing ships mining at locations not near the Capital ships and start losing them, intel on a planet like this could again spread within a day. 2 Weeks.... 2 weeks to even fly here that is more then enough time for Intel to spread and the Hapans to discover it. The DI OCF ships are instantly known thus the area to search is instantly known. If they arent near the fighters then rumors of unexplained deaths take a matter of a couple days max to circulate. And even if they get time, they dont have any Rakatta building technicians or any Rakatta tech faciltiy lieing around to make sure their Harrowers are upgraded with Rakatta tech. The newer ones wont have the Rakatta tech advantage and teh AoW builds faster. Wedge losses nothing by waiting on intel. Edit: clearly not listening, nothing needs be out of the ordinary, the hapans arent looking for out of the ordinary, they want ship position composition and strategy. They know where the civies cant go. That means classified information, THeir jobs are to get classified information. it doesnt matter if they suspect a trap or not, they are searching because that is their jobs. Are you getting it yet? Beni, can we get a confirmation regarding the new ships that are built and what tech they would have? *Want to make sure this is clear before i proceed further, though seeing how their fleet is the advanced tech with stealth i do not see why newer ones would not to keep the consistency. If not then we may need to recalculate for separate kinds of the ships which would add a ton of work as well as severely hamper the DI* Edit: I have been listening and what i have seen you defend with for reasons seem extremely flawed and very vague. Vagueness and generalization tend to not equal solid ground to stand on in debates. There is merit in the points you have brought up but it seems as if you are overestimating them greatly. Edited February 28, 2014 by Silenceo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 (edited) Beni, can we get a confirmation regarding the new ships that are built and what tech they would have? *Want to make sure this is clear before i proceed further, though seeing how their fleet is the advanced tech with stealth i do not see why newer ones would not to keep the consistency. If not then we may need to recalculate for separate kinds of the ships which would add a ton of work as well as severely hamper the DI* The only way the Rakatta ships were build was with the Rakatta Forge, since the DI doesnt have the Forge and NO ONE understands how Rakatta tech works who in the balls do you think is going to build a ship with Rakatta tech. They have the Harrower Schematics the Harrower normally doesnt have Rakatta tech it was only by feeding those schematics or giving the Forge a Harrower coudl the Forge upgrade it. They can also build the OCF ships and its just as likely they build them as the Harrowers, but I am calling bull right now on Harrowers upgraded by Rakatta tech being built by CIvi's in under a year. Edit: they are an intel group, there jobs are to gather intelligence on Fleet movement, compisition and strategy as well as any weaknesses any of the ships may have. They are noted as one of the finest INtel agencies in the known galaxy. They know where the Fleet is they ahve agents available to find the Rest, Compisition would be easy as they know where the ships are they just need to look up through a telescope boom comp. Now all they need to know is Strategy or weaknesses. The best way to do this is to get in close to determine position as well as see if they cant hack and steal some schematics to find weaknesses on ships. There is litterally no anti-intel group trying to stop any of their plans. This makes their jobs infinately easier then it has ever been in any scenario. The more options to do something there is the more likely it is to have happen. If there are 100 doors and behind all but 1 is a dunce prize your chances of getting a dunce is 99/100. The more scenarios that show the Hapans can get the intel the less likely it is they can. I am not as smart as a Hapan intel officer, if I can think of this many ways they can think of hundreds better. Edited February 28, 2014 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 (edited) The only way the Rakatta ships were build was with the Rakatta Forge, since the DI doesnt have the Forge and NO ONE understands how Rakatta tech works who in the balls do you think is going to build a ship with Rakatta tech. They have the Harrower Schematics the Harrower normally doesnt have Rakatta tech it was only by feeding those schematics or giving the Forge a Harrower coudl the Forge upgrade it. They can also build the OCF ships and its just as likely they build them as the Harrowers, but I am calling bull right now on Harrowers upgraded by Rakatta tech being built by CIvi's in under a year. Its more of a consistency thing and not the craziest thing to be considered in a Kaggath. Also, i would like to bring back a quote from Aurbere that seems relevant. You also need to prove (not give options, actually prove that they will work) that your other options will work. Until then, I am discontinuing this conversation. Edit: Until these feats by the Hapan Intelligence can be proven or at least made very feasible as well as a few of the matters that need to be cleared up are resolved, I too will wait. Edited: Just stating that they are some of the best should be taken with a grain of salt. Take the storm troopers for example. They are said to be some of the deadliest soldiers in the galaxy yet they often are the laughing stock of so many jokes. Yes, there are a select few that live up to their rep, but the vast majority do not. Another Edit: I still question how much the Hapes Consortium is donating to the AoW cause. With so much donation they nearly seem like another faction. We all know the rules regarding that. Edited February 28, 2014 by Silenceo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 (edited) Its more of a consistency thing and not the craziest thing to be considered in a Kaggath. Also, i would like to bring back a quote from Aurbere that seems relevant. You also need to prove (not give options, actually prove that they will work) that your other options will work. Until then, I am discontinuing this conversation. Edit: Until these feats by the Hapan Intelligence can be proven or at least made very feasible as well as a few of the matters that need to be cleared up are resolved, I too will wait. Consistency is fine, but I also think consistancy with building times belongs as well. If you want to build 1 harrower with Rakatta tech using Civies its going to take at least a year to fold the Armor that thick and to build a shield generator or ship generator in general that good. By that point the Kaggath will be over. You dont have the Forge to pump these things out like candy. For a Civi it will take time the DI doesnt have. I have actually proven they will work, we have history in SW that intel groups get intel this way. We have history that Intel groups noted as WORSE then the hapan intel group have gotten intel of this nature while trying to deal with anti intel groups. If they can do it under those conditions the hapans certainly can given the favorable position. The planet is known for an information trade, there are no counter intel groups to stop them and worse intel groups have done it under worse conditions if that isnt proof I dont know what is. Edit: the Storm troopers were beat by rebels, many of which used to BE storm troopers. So storm troopers were beat by more experienced stormtroopers. And Special force Stormtroopers were beat by Spec Forces specifically trained and DESIGNED to counter them. I am starting to find this whole thing Laughable, 2 intel agencies not able to get the simplest of information on an enemy when the enemy doesnt even have any anti intel groups. Since when did intel groups all of a sudden become so ****** at their jobs? Edit: the DI is getting a portion of everything the Seinar own. Same with the AoW. You are overestimateing how much I am getting from them. I get some ships, money, intel, a few soldiers to support the war effort and a couple exotic weapons. thats it. Rebemember a majority of the Hapan battle dragons are from the GADF my fleet not my supplier the Hapans just give a few more. Edited February 28, 2014 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Another Edit: I still question how much the Hapes Consortium is donating to the AoW cause. With so much donation they nearly seem like another faction. We all know the rules regarding that. I'm starting to feel like this too. If tune get's like 1% Of their force, why does he get every single elite branch of their military? I'm not telling you to nerf him, just woulda been nice to know about that before we chose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 I am starting to find this whole thing Laughable, 2 intel agencies not able to get the simplest of information on an enemy when the enemy doesnt even have any anti intel groups. Since when did intel groups all of a sudden become so ****** at their jobs? Except I do have Intel Agencies. Elite Spec ops Intel agencies, from Shadow Troopers. Naval Intelligence from Revans Fleet. Sienar's own GALACTIC WIDE Intelligence service, and their Black Ops droids... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 I'm starting to feel like this too. If tune get's like 1% Of their force, why does he get every single elite branch of their military? I'm not telling you to nerf him, just woulda been nice to know about that before we chose. does this mean you think you shouldnt get Phantom ties? or Defender Ties I mean they are "advanced" units are they not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Except I do have Intel Agencies. Elite Spec ops Intel agencies, from Shadow Troopers. Naval Intelligence from Revans Fleet. Sienar's own GALACTIC WIDE Intelligence service, and their Black Ops droids... Last i checked no one gets the intel agency assosciated with their fleet. Seinar owns a Intel agency thats new to me. Elite specops intel AGENTS..... not agency. You know of the same caliber as my own SpecOps members likely equal in numbers. You dont have a full blown agency that I can tell and certainly not one that has ever been considered on par with the Hapan Intel (again galactic wide called one of the finest likely beat by bothans only). Seriously if I said I had Bothan intel, would this be being argued right now? If I said I had ii from SWTOR would this be argued right now? If I had SiS would this be argued right now, because the hapans are arguably better then 2 of what i just named. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 The Following are on Hapes, as it is a neutral world, however it would go the same (Just faster) on Malachor, and yes, Luke and Leia would go to Malachor, as they wouldnt let Thousands die over something they could do better. All Scenarios start with the following. Their last palace destroyed by a suicidal Republic Stealth Ship (Filled with explosives,) Leia and Luke have moved to a Less Secure location. The fleet above Hapes has been defended with Mines now, however it is too late, as Traya, Maul, and 20 Bladeborn have arrived on world already. They slowly sneak into the palace, hiding their presence. Scenario A Maul and Traya attack, locking all Doors, with the Bladeborn engaging the guards. The Bladeborn mostly survive, but continue holding off the exits whilst the force users duke it out. Maul attacks Leia, realising he could break her defense far easier. Traya holds luke off with excellent mastery of the force, and blade locks. Leia is being dominated by maul, Luke is so foolishly focussed on her, making sure she doesn't die, that next time he attempts a power strike, Traya cleverly uses Trakata, he stumbles, and she disarms him with the force and executes him. Ending Leia is simple from there. Scenario B Traya mind tricks Luke into Sending many troops to guard the two Adjoining rooms, babbling on about Air Vents. It makes sense, but once they are gone, the Doors are locked down, and Traya and Maul along with 20 Sith Assassins obliterate Leia and Luke. Scenario C Traya splits Luke and Leia up, Leia vs Traya, Luke vs Maul. Maul is able to taunt luke constantly about Leia, how bad she is faring etc. At one point, Traya is able to Drain Leia of her life enrgies, which Luke feels greatly. Allowing Maul the upper hand. Leia however gets "A Lucky Shot" In Traya that pierces her stomach, Traya collapses, Leia senses she is dead. Leia is so disgruntled trying to get through the Locked Doors, that she does not notice a Wounded Traya Rise, sneak up behind her and Stab her saber through Leia's Heart. Scenario D Traya and Maul face off against Luke and Leia, however their Force Meld is something that Traya sees as a Shatter point, she lets loose a Force Drain that hits them both, which affects them both Doubly because they have been tied to one another. She effectively draws as much as she can, whilst doubling their Pain, both are So Disoriented, that their Living Weapon can destroy them with Ease. Note, this could all Happen whilst Luke and Leia's fleet bombard Malachor, or their troops are landing. Sorry they are so short, thought making them short made up for 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Last i checked no one gets the intel agency assosciated with their fleet. Seinar owns a Intel agency thats new to me. Elite specops intel AGENTS..... not agency. You know of the same caliber as my own SpecOps members likely equal in numbers. You dont have a full blown agency that I can tell and certainly not one that has ever been considered on par with the Hapan Intel (again galactic wide called one of the finest likely beat by bothans only). Seriously if I said I had Bothan intel, would this be being argued right now? If I said I had ii from SWTOR would this be argued right now? If I had SiS would this be argued right now, because the hapans are arguably better then 2 of what i just named. Likely likely likely likely.... If you have a quote saying they're second to Bothan only, that is not Wookieepedia (Opinion based Website mostly) then post it. If not, I can name about 150 Intel Agencies that I'd consider far superior to Hapans. Sienar being one of them. As Sienar Intelligence acted as the Republic's own widespread intelligence service before the clone wars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 does this mean you think you shouldnt get Phantom ties? or Defender Ties I mean they are "advanced" units are they not? Advanced units that are built in about the same time as the Non-Advanced ones. Ships and Troops aren't comparable in the slightest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 The Following are on Hapes, as it is a neutral world, however it would go the same (Just faster) on Malachor, and yes, Luke and Leia would go to Malachor, as they wouldnt let Thousands die over something they could do better. All Scenarios start with the following. Their last palace destroyed by a suicidal Republic Stealth Ship (Filled with explosives,) Leia and Luke have moved to a Less Secure location. The fleet above Hapes has been defended with Mines now, however it is too late, as Traya, Maul, and 20 Bladeborn have arrived on world already. They slowly sneak into the palace, hiding their presence. Scenario A Maul and Traya attack, locking all Doors, with the Bladeborn engaging the guards. The Bladeborn mostly survive, but continue holding off the exits whilst the force users duke it out. Maul attacks Leia, realising he could break her defense far easier. Traya holds luke off with excellent mastery of the force, and blade locks. Leia is being dominated by maul, Luke is so foolishly focussed on her, making sure she doesn't die, that next time he attempts a power strike, Traya cleverly uses Trakata, he stumbles, and she disarms him with the force and executes him. Ending Leia is simple from there. Scenario B Traya mind tricks Luke into Sending many troops to guard the two Adjoining rooms, babbling on about Air Vents. It makes sense, but once they are gone, the Doors are locked down, and Traya and Maul along with 20 Sith Assassins obliterate Leia and Luke. Scenario C Traya splits Luke and Leia up, Leia vs Traya, Luke vs Maul. Maul is able to taunt luke constantly about Leia, how bad she is faring etc. At one point, Traya is able to Drain Leia of her life enrgies, which Luke feels greatly. Allowing Maul the upper hand. Leia however gets "A Lucky Shot" In Traya that pierces her stomach, Traya collapses, Leia senses she is dead. Leia is so disgruntled trying to get through the Locked Doors, that she does not notice a Wounded Traya Rise, sneak up behind her and Stab her saber through Leia's Heart. Scenario D Traya and Maul face off against Luke and Leia, however their Force Meld is something that Traya sees as a Shatter point, she lets loose a Force Drain that hits them both, which affects them both Doubly because they have been tied to one another. She effectively draws as much as she can, whilst doubling their Pain, both are So Disoriented, that their Living Weapon can destroy them with Ease. Note, this could all Happen whilst Luke and Leia's fleet bombard Malachor, or their troops are landing. Sorry they are so short, thought making them short made up for 4. First Luke and Leia wont land on malchor already said this already said how Traya can die with out losing to many people already said rebels wont let them even if they wanted to leave that alone. Maul can not break Leia's defenses easily you presume to much. Also the coordination between Luke and leia wil be vastly better then the Coordination between Maul and Traya, Luke and Leia are going to be able to swap opponents much easier and/or defend each other much easier them Maul or Traya can. Leia has sensed people hiding in the Force before, Traya may be able to but the rest she will know about thus every one in the room will know about (Battle Meld can affect more then 1 and she was trained to use it on more then 1) Shot guns means the Bladeborn who thought they would have the moment of surprise get surprised and put on their back feet. likely not ending well for them. The rebels have heavy weapons no amount of door blocading is going to stop them getting through. Luke is just as likely to overpower Traya with blade work as Maul is to overpower Leia, More so infact Traya has only 1 arm AND Luke's hybrid style could be foriegn to her thus her usual analytical capabilies could not work. Leia on the other hand can and will pull out the Shoto for a broader defense against Maul and can hold out for a very long time. And thats all she needs to do for teh Troops to bombard in. Luke has Leia likely in his mind, Traya isnt going to be able to Mind trick when brother and sister are right next to each other usin a Force Meld, this scenario is an impossibility. Luke will not leave his sisters side for any reason when he knows she is the goal this scenario is an impossibilty. Force Meld and Force Harmony, Force Harmony increases their connection to the light this will protect the 2 from feeling to terrible about the effects of the force drain, to top it off a Force meld is only dangerous to the other members when SEVERE damage is dealt usually more psychological then physical, Force Drain wouldnt be more effective against the 2 it would be less. This scenario is an impossibilty. The whole fleet isnt needed to bombard Malachor nor are all of the troops needed to storm it. They will have more then sufficient of both left for defense especially if they know the enemy still has ships left. Also how did you get passed the blockaded and mined transitor mists with a ship intact, and get that ship to hit where you wanted it to be hit with Anti-air guns shooting it and forcefully pushing it away? I guess this is just end game so just going to assume a miracle happens that allows you to pull that off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Advanced units that are built in about the same time as the Non-Advanced ones. Ships and Troops aren't comparable in the slightest. They absolutely are. Advanced troops which are just as readily available as standard troops. They are just standing around just like the rest. The difference between people and stuff you need to build, people are harder to replenish but are more readily available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Likely likely likely likely.... If you have a quote saying they're second to Bothan only, that is not Wookieepedia (Opinion based Website mostly) then post it. If not, I can name about 150 Intel Agencies that I'd consider far superior to Hapans. Sienar being one of them. As Sienar Intelligence acted as the Republic's own widespread intelligence service before the clone wars. I still havent heard of this Sienar intel, whats its actual name? Why is that? by what basis do you believe they are superior to the Royal intelligence Service of hapes which fouled all sorts of assassination attempts and even discovered the father of Tenel Ka's Daughter, the father of which never even told his own parents. The information was known by maybe 4 people for sure and they found it. I think I am done talking about Hapan intel groups its clear their is less respect for their abilties on this forum then there is for Greedo's aim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 I still havent heard of this Sienar intel, whats its actual name? Why is that? by what basis do you believe they are superior to the Royal intelligence Service of hapes which fouled all sorts of assassination attempts and even discovered the father of Tenel Ka's Daughter, the father of which never even told his own parents. The information was known by maybe 4 people for sure and they found it. I think I am done talking about Hapan intel groups its clear their is less respect for their abilties on this forum then there is for Greedo's aim. Havent checked The Wookiee, but I know they use Acronyms for Sienar, so probably SIS. I'll toss up evidence later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Havent checked The Wookiee, but I know they use Acronyms for Sienar, so probably SIS. I'll toss up evidence later. only SiS I know is Republic Strategic Information Service. If you have evidence that any agency is stated to be better then the Royal Intelligence service I would love to see it.... have fun digging I highly doubt you will find anythng of the sort. You may find all kinds of skilled Intel services and you may find all kinds of ingenious tactics, but I garantee you wont find one that refers to itself as better then Royal intel in 40 ABY save for maybe the Bothans. Have fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 only SiS I know is Republic Strategic Information Service. If you have evidence that any agency is stated to be better then the Royal Intelligence service I would love to see it.... have fun digging I highly doubt you will find anythng of the sort. You may find all kinds of skilled Intel services and you may find all kinds of ingenious tactics, but I garantee you wont find one that refers to itself as better then Royal intel in 40 ABY save for maybe the Bothans. Have fun. I don't need evidence, you need evidence suggesting the contrary. There are many things they have discovered that was astounding, and on that Basis I put people like Imperial Intelligence etc in higher standards. All I've seen the Hapans do, is stuff to do with Hapan society that they'd have greater contacts for. Also, there are many flaws in your response to my scenarios, so Beni, reply for me or don't call it until 6pmGMT so I can reply.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 (edited) I don't need evidence, you need evidence suggesting the contrary. There are many things they have discovered that was astounding, and on that Basis I put people like Imperial Intelligence etc in higher standards. All I've seen the Hapans do, is stuff to do with Hapan society that they'd have greater contacts for. Also, there are many flaws in your response to my scenarios, so Beni, reply for me or don't call it until 6pmGMT so I can reply.... "By 40 ABY, it was considered one of the finest in the Galaxy." That IS evidence, And its all I need for it to be evidence After all it is a statement from a credible source, so its up to you guys to disprove said credible source. Does any one have Tempest, because that is where the source got it from. But like i said I will be surprised when the day comes that I dont have to defend every single portion of the AoW. I am glad I have at least fought hard enough that people reckognize Wedge as a tactitian, Luke as a Jedi knight and 88 as one hell of a machine. Edit: honestly it wont matter when beni calls it, there will never be a point when one of us doesnt have a "counter" to the other one. Some of what has been said is literally talking in circles. Edited February 28, 2014 by tunewalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted February 28, 2014 Author Share Posted February 28, 2014 Beni, can we get a confirmation regarding the new ships that are built and what tech they would have? *Want to make sure this is clear before i proceed further, though seeing how their fleet is the advanced tech with stealth i do not see why newer ones would not to keep the consistency. If not then we may need to recalculate for separate kinds of the ships which would add a ton of work as well as severely hamper the DI*Considering they lack access to Rakata technology they would not be able to build any more Rakata upgraded ships. They can however produce more stealthed Harrowers, fighters, OCF ships etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 "By 40 ABY, it was considered one of the finest in the Galaxy." That IS evidence, And its all I need for it to be evidence After all it is a statement from a credible source, so its up to you guys to disprove said credible source. Does any one have Tempest, because that is where the source got it from. But like i said I will be surprised when the day comes that I dont have to defend every single portion of the AoW. I am glad I have at least fought hard enough that people reckognize Wedge as a tactitian, Luke as a Jedi knight and 88 as one hell of a machine. Edit: honestly it wont matter when beni calls it, there will never be a point when one of us doesnt have a "counter" to the other one. Some of what has been said is literally talking in circles. Not sure how that means 2nd best. It could mean 100th best, being one of the best doesn't mean it's in line with THE best. And there are huge counters to your points, I don't care if you're going to counter them and make us go for another 30 pages, I want to post those points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selenial Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Considering they lack access to Rakata technology they would not be able to build any more Rakata upgraded ships. They can however produce more stealthed Harrowers, fighters, OCF ships etc. Disputing. The Schism collective were able to augment the Rakata Technology further, which means they understood it, I see no reason why they couldn't have taught Malgus' technicians.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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