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Ranked daily/weeklies


DarthRaistlin

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People who currently queue for ranked games have their reasons and don't need further incentives. It's growing the population of ranked participation that you need. More players means more competition. Incentives need to lure more participation.

 

Give people a reason to queue and you'll see the queue times decrease and the skill of competition increase.

 

One of the main arguments I keep seeing by the people who only want wins to count is basically, 'screw the bads/casuals/anyone-not-me because it's all about competition'. If that's what Ranked is in your view, that's fine, I get it.

 

Then I propose this: there should be no Ranked daily/weekly at all, and the Ranked matches should reward no comms. After all, it's supposed to be only about COMPETITION, right? The only reward should be your increased rating. Get rid of any comm rewards whatsoever and you can be more guaranteed that 'bads/casuals' won't be mucking up your Ranked matches. Then all that will be left are those who truly want competition.

 

Otherwise it's more than a little cognitive dissonance to try and discourage some players out of Ranked by making it difficult for them to earn anything, while at the same time saying you want to incentivize more players to join Ranked. Either way, if your primary concern is about making Ranked a competitive environment, then make it only about competition (receiving rating only) and not comm rewards.

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The losing team will start to abandon the match after the first loss or if they notice their opposition is good at PvP.

 

You get comms for losing, you just don't get daily/weekly credit.

 

If we are trying to maximize comms per hour then whether or not leaving maximizes this depends on

  1. how long to load out of the current arena
  2. time for queue to pop
  3. time to load in to next wz+ wait to start
  4. probability of winning next arena
  5. probability of winning the current arena (miracles could happen -- e.g. the other side has 2 DCs)
  6. comms earned for a losing wz
  7. average time to finish a wz
  8. time saved by leaving wz

 

(caveat: by "wz" I mean ranked arena).

 

If we queue 4-man and have some buddies of equal skill queuing 4-man then we can greatly increase #4 by leaving a loser against a clearly stronger team (not our buddies) and requeuing. This does not require win trading per se as long as our buddies will keep queuing until we beat them them fair and square.

 

assumptions:

  • we still have hidden ratings in preseason that are used for matchmaking (i.e. BW doesn't have separate rating/matchmaking code for pre-season and season).
  • people who leave are only queuing for comms to earn gear. Presumably this is less common after pre-season

 

depending on the variables, it may be the case that staying gives the best ROI. Clearly the longer it takes you to load out, load in and get a queue pop the better staying and losing looks.

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Ranked is not for grinding gear. Its for playing in a competitive environment and measuring your abilities against other skilled opponents. Its already a relative travesty, putting a quest in Ranked that can be completed by losing is just straight up idiocy.

 

I am funkiestj and I approve this message.

Edited by funkiestj
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One of the main arguments I keep seeing by the people who only want wins to count is basically, 'screw the bads/casuals/anyone-not-me because it's all about competition'. If that's what Ranked is in your view, that's fine, I get it.

 

Then I propose this: there should be no Ranked daily/weekly at all, and the Ranked matches should reward no comms. After all, it's supposed to be only about COMPETITION, right? The only reward should be your increased rating. Get rid of any comm rewards whatsoever and you can be more guaranteed that 'bads/casuals' won't be mucking up your Ranked matches. Then all that will be left are those who truly want competition.

 

Otherwise it's more than a little cognitive dissonance to try and discourage some players out of Ranked by making it difficult for them to earn anything, while at the same time saying you want to incentivize more players to join Ranked. Either way, if your primary concern is about making Ranked a competitive environment, then make it only about competition (receiving rating only) and not comm rewards.

And this IS the point. Comms are a waste of time for player that are appropriately "ready" to Que for ranked. Another issue is the fact that PvP consumables are better to obtain via regs. That needs to change ASAP....

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And this IS the point. Comms are a waste of time for player that are appropriately "ready" to Que for ranked. Another issue is the fact that PvP consumables are better to obtain via regs. That needs to change ASAP....

 

I would be fine with:

  • top tier gear is purchased with reg comms (BW has to have a gear grind, right? Not possible to have no grind)
  • the only think ranked comms are good for is consumables

 

or, at the very least, make grinding regs the most efficient way to get gear so that PvE folks who are merely farming PvP for gear will avoid ranked because regs is better for farming.

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I would be fine with:

  • top tier gear is purchased with reg comms (BW has to have a gear grind, right? Not possible to have no grind)
  • the only think ranked comms are good for is consumables

 

or, at the very least, make grinding regs the most efficient way to get gear so that PvE folks who are merely farming PvP for gear will avoid ranked because regs is better for farming.

 

While I could live with that, its just asinine that PvP consumables cost the same amount of comms whether ranked or regs. I spend a good portion of my time in regs because of this one simple overlooked issue. Medpack/Adren should only cost 3-4 ranked comms, if you assigned the tradein value at 3:1.

 

Here is another idea to increase Que pops... "Tax Free Day": 4 consumables awarded after every ranked match.

Edited by L-RANDLE
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As it should be. PVE gear is useless in WZs, so why should gear only earnable in WZs be equally useful outside of WZs?

 

To be sure: Are you only talking about the relics, or are you suggesting that all the armor/weapons/implants from the PvP vendors not work outside of warzones?

 

Because PvE gear isn't useless in warzones. PvE relics and medpacks are useless.

 

Obviously I do not raid, but having T2 PvP relics be perceived as more desirable than the PvE versions to the extent that players will queue ranked matches only because they are attempting to get the PvP relics is silly. PvE relics either need to be easier to get relatively, or PvP relics should not work outside of warzones/open world PvP. Having PvE players tell me that they are "forced" to PvP so they can get the relics is bad.

 

I think that incentivizing warzones to the PvE crowd is a good thing. Some high quality pre-50 gear might get more people checking out WZs early on and enjoying themselves. Of course, they'd need to do more than have one vendor on the fleet and one tucked away on the starting worlds.

 

I mean, for Republic side, the Legacy vendors have more visibility... and BioWare seems to have abandoned interest in the birthright/inheritance gear.

 

You still dont learn how design MMO balance since failed Ilum. You dont listen players opinions.

Right? Because the players are unified in their opinion and the developers are just ignoring everyone. It's not that different players have vastly different viewpoints and the developers can only please some of them.

Edited by MCaliban
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To be sure: Are you only talking about the relics, or are you suggesting that all the armor/weapons/implants from the PvP vendors not work outside of warzones?

 

Because PvE gear isn't useless in warzones. PvE relics and medpacks are useless.

 

Well in the very least PVP relics shouldn't proc in PVE environment since the reverse is already true of PVE relics.

 

But if it was up to me, expertise and gear in PVP would be abolished completely. PVP should be about cosmetic upgrades, titles and bragging rights. PVP'ers should be able to earn unique gear skins, titles, mounts, etc. Some of them could be purchasable via some PVP currency, others could have actual rating requirements so they're a symbol of prestige. These items should change every season to give incentive to keep playing. This is one of the few things GW2 does right, their instanced PVP game is completely separate from the rest of the game. You choose your PVP stats and spec independently from the rest of the game. There are no gold sinks or any other reason to play anything outside of instanced PVP in order to participate in instanced PVP. In fact, everything you do outside of their instanced PVP has no positive or negative bearing on the PVP side of the game. This would make entry to PVP easy and would solve the problem of people that are in WZs only for the gear. As for open world PVP, dailies, etc. well those are all really PVE activities, so if you want to participate in them, collect PVE gear like everyone else.

Edited by Okamakiri
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Well in the very least PVP relics shouldn't proc in PVE environment since the reverse is already true of PVE relics.

 

But if it was up to me, expertise and gear in PVP would be abolished completely. PVP should be about cosmetic upgrades, titles and bragging rights. PVP'ers should be able to earn unique gear skins, titles, mounts, etc. Some of them could be purchasable via some PVP currency, others could have actual rating requirements so they're a symbol of prestige. These items should change every season to give incentive to keep playing. This is one of the few things GW2 does right, their instanced PVP game is completely separate from the rest of the game. You choose your PVP stats and spec independently from the rest of the game. There are no gold sinks or any other reason to play anything outside of instanced PVP in order to participate in instanced PVP. In fact, everything you do outside of their instanced PVP has no positive or negative bearing on the PVP side of the game. This would make entry to PVP easy and would solve the problem of people that are in WZs only for the gear. As for open world PVP, dailies, etc. well those are all really PVE activities, so if you want to participate in them, collect PVE gear like everyone else.

 

You had me right up until the end.

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More queue pops do not necessarily translate into a good thing for Ranked. It needs to be filled with competitive players.

Your viewpoint was entirely valid a year ago but ranked isn't on life support anymore, it's dead. There aren't enough competitive players to fill a queue anymore.

 

Once we have players in the queues again we can sort the bads from the good and you'll get more competitive matches. Leaving ranked as is or even adding back 8v8 groups will not bring back those competitive players you mentioned that left the game. We need to turn the significant number of reg PvP players (some of who are good but don't have any incentive to wait 45minutes for a match) into ranked players. The first step is getting them to play. If the ranked pool is large enough the bads will be separated from the good by the Elo ranking system.

If you think the Ranked daily/weekly should advance for losing, you are a casual and are not the target audience of Ranked PvP.

Flaw in logic: You're acting if ranking and the daily/weekly are the same thing.

 

So what if somebody farms losses for the Daily?

A person who farms losses to complete a daily is demolishing their ranking. Soon they'll be far below your so superior level. Currently under the elitist ranked queue we have that low player would still be grouped with you. You said the Yolo queue is RNG but it's not, it only seems that way because there are so few players in ranked. The system is grouped by skill but only if there are enough players between you and that bad afk comm farmer.

 

That's why letting in all the regs will work in the long run. For the first 2 weeks it may be chaotic but with a ranked pool in the hundreds instead of the 10s the various skill levels will sort out from each other.

 

The entire population may be heavy with bads, 10% will be good and 90% bad. In today's elitist queue with only 10 people queueing those bads are on your team. But with over 100 players that's 10 good people for you to be consistently queued with and the comm farmers you're afraid of will fall further with every loss.

 

And hopefully a few of the average and the regstars will begin to creep their way up and become a new generation of skilled players.

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The ranked queue does not exist so you can sponge gear off of the system.

 

It was supposed to be an arena for competitive players to pit their skills against one another. Obviously the current population is not ideal in terms of sustaining a wide-spread system, but that is absolutely not a reason to dumb it the fk down so that a whole bunch of drooling window lickers can grind a new tier of gear that they dont even need.

 

Honestly, they should just remove commendation rewards from Ranked of any type. If you are trying to grind gear, youre not ready for Ranked.

Edited by cashogy_reborn
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This is a little bit of an aside, but I'm curious as to what the more invested PvP'ers think on the issue.

 

I've recently started to PvP again in this game. For the longest time I was primarily a PvE'er (Raids/HMs/some NiM content at level), but recently got the urge to try PvP again. I played some at launch, but by the time I got into it, the expertise/abilities/lvl difference kind of put me off a bit.

 

But that being said, I've found that since I've started again I've grown to like it more. I'm certainly a better player than I was at launch and I don't feel as overwhelmed as I did back then (I know a lot has changed fundementally, as well).

 

I've been running regs quite frequently. Have a mix of Obroan and Brutalizer, augments, somewhat min/maxed etc. Have a good understanding of most class abilities, but I'm sure there are still a lot of situational tip/tricks to be learned, just through more experience.

 

I also agree that ranked is there for winning and competition and have no issue with the ranked rewards being for ranked wins.

 

But I'm at the point where I'm curious as to how I would fair in ranked, and if more competition would actually help me improve more. If you guys could have it your way, would you think someone like myself would be better off in solo queue or group queue. Granted the group queue would probably be people with similar skill sets as mine.

 

I guess even bigger picture: If one queue were more of a "Test to see if you're ready for Ranked" and one more "Serious Ranked Here" which way would you guys want it to be? And I know in a perfect world ELO blah, blah, blah you'd be grouped with and against similar players, but I don't want to hear about semantics, just if you had to separate the distinction in queues, which way would you prefer it to be.

 

You are about ready to start getting involved in the ranked environment. All you need in order to be ready to step into a solo arena as far as gear is conserned is at least full obroan augmented + brutalizer relics. A basic understanding of other classes burst phases and cc/roots is important in order not to be surprised, because things happen fast sometimes. Everyone starts somewhere so get in there now and learn the different strategies an powerful comps. Try discussing not just who your team will target, but also who the opposite team will be targeting and how this will affect your positioning. Now is actually the best time as there is no rating so teams aren't as scared to lose.

 

As far as the community thinks about new ranked players coming into ranked. I believe that most of us would love more people queuing as long as you are ready to try your best, know your class, listen, focus target, and take the blame for the loss :p

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There is a place for everyone who wants to PvP, but it is not ranked. If you MUST queue for ranked, at least find 3 other unskilled/undergeared players to queue for 4s so that you can get team globalled and not harm the potential enjoyment of 3 other people on your team. If you are looking to get involved in the PvP world or looking to improve, play regs. The queues are faster, the caliber of play isn't as high, and there are rewards fitting of the skill required to obtain them..

 

I disagree with you here. ranked matches are serious (insofar as any game's matches can be). that doesn't mean you have to be good. that means you have to give it a legit shot. show up with appropriate gear and consumables. not require the crutch of bolster. I don't think there's a feasible way to enforce augs and consumables, but enforcing exp gear and removing bolster ARE feasible.

 

you also have to consider that being "bad" is highly subjective. I had some jerk refuse to queue because I was not an effective tank...while being pressured into switching into ion cell before the match in the first place (full AP). in his eyes, I was a bad. iunno. I won a lot more matches than I lost (mostly after AP was nerfed). I won matches on the same night on and against the same players (i.e., regardless who was on my team), and I had win streaks of 20 and 30 games over the course of a weekend. doesn't make me leet sauce, but "bad"? I mean...you just cannot allow subjective distinctions like that to matter. in the solo q, you need to accept that you will be teamed with and against lesser players. the matchmaking system will (or should) eventually take over (albiet there are clear flaws). in any case, "if you're bad, don't queue" isn't a feasible criteria. it's too subjective.

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2018 expertise

min

to get a RWZ pop

 

just want to reiterate that with a minimum exp requirement, there would be NO REASON WHATSOEVER FOR BOLSTER IN RATED. this is because any single pvp mod (even just a barrel) would drop you below 2018 exp. if everyone's in exp gear...well....what's the point of bolster? are we worried that someone's still wearing partisain? or w/e came after ewh...

Edited by foxmob
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This is understandable and will happen to many players, even me no doubt =/

 

However we feel that having wins be the only criteria is a better way to go instead of making them games played. This is because of the incentive to play the gamemode for the right reasons (to win) is much lower for someone who is just interested in completing the daily/weekly. A percentage of the Ranked population would be queuing just to complete a quest and that would be detrimental to the team. We feel Games Played with an incentive (Double counts for Wins) is more acceptable in Unranked games because of the larger team size (less personal impact on if your team wins or loses) and more casual atmosphere.

 

This is our current philosophy on the choice we made but if it isn't working out we will make adjustments where and when possible.

 

Cheers! :i_biggrin:

 

And then I resubbed...

 

Over the last like...3-4 weeks Im hating BW less. I still disagree with a few things but now I feel like someone somewhere in there is trying...

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just want to reiterate that with a minimum exp requirement, there would be NO REASON WHATSOEVER FOR BOLSTER IN RATED. this is because any single pvp mod (even just a barrel) would drop you below 2018 exp. if everyone's in exp gear...well....what's the point of bolster? are we worried that someone's still wearing partisain? or w/e came after ewh...

 

that's why im calling for a 2018 filter to get a RWZ pop

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that's why im calling for a 2018 filter to get a RWZ pop

 

That won't have a positive effect. I know why you guys ask for that, but just think about it. You get gear by afking in regs. Why the hell would that make sense to "need to do" before you play ranked? No augments and stims have a MUCH greater impact that bolster.

 

Being able to Que for ranked should be based on augments and experience.

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There have been a few posts already about how the new daily will fail because the old daily failed. Old Warzone dailies used to require wins only, and a lot of people had trouble completing them because of faction imbalance, and because a lot of morons were just deathmatching instead of going for objectives (which is how you win Warzones).

 

But guess what? Current ranked is all deathmatching. There are no objectives to be had in Arena outside of killing the other people on the other team. All these morons who deathmatched in Warzones will be deathmatching in Arena and therefore completing the objective.

 

So now, if you lose and can't complete your daily, its because you suck. There are better players out there who stack the deck in their favor (proper composition, better gear, better keybinds, etc) because they want to win more than you do.

 

 

And the main reason why ranked queues are not popping?

 

Because people don't like Arena. They prefer Warzones, but there are no more ranked Warzones.

 

 

Bring back ranked Warzones. Allow solo queue, but with a minimum gear requirement to even start queueing.

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That won't have a positive effect. I know why you guys ask for that, but just think about it. You get gear by afking in regs. Why the hell would that make sense to "need to do" before you play ranked? No augments and stims have a MUCH greater impact that bolster.

 

Being able to Que for ranked should be based on augments and experience.

 

ok, maybe an armor rating+expertise combination?

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