I would like to use Cer. Nova + Ser. Assault, however, I heard in the past that this is a bad idea because their procs will not stack; so I should use Boundless Ages + Ser. Assault.

Is this still the case as of 2.3?

What are the best Relics to use for both Carnage and Annihilation Marauder??

I would like to use Cer. Nova + Ser. Assault, however, I heard in the past that this is a bad idea because their procs will not stack; so I should use Boundless Ages + Ser. Assault.

Is this still the case as of 2.3?

What are the best Relics to use for both Carnage and Annihilation Marauder??

SA & any damage proc will work together now.

Your other question is trickier as relics have kind of been a mess recently.

In theory relics have two variable aspects: damage type and attack type. Technically, Force/Tech are attack types. We are force-using class so always pick a force-based relic. Next, the damage type is either mitigated by armor (Kinetic and Energy) or non-mitigated (Internal and Elemental). This allows for four unique relics; prior to 2.0 they were:

• Cerulean Nova: Tech & Energy
  
• Kinetic Tempest: Force & Kinetic
  
• Dark Radiance: Tech & Internal
  
• Elemental Transcendence: Force & Elemental
  

Since 2.0 they have been a bit messed up, including the tooltips. The best thing to do it buy one then go hit the dummy for 5m. If your observed crit rate is single digits you have the wrong attack type.

For Carnage you may want the armor mitigated damage as Gore provides periods of 100% armor penetration. For Annihilation, you want the non-mitigated damage.

SA & any damage proc will work together now.

 

Your other question is trickier as relics have kind of been a mess recently.

 

In theory relics have two variable aspects: damage type and attack type. Technically, Force/Tech are attack types. We are force-using class so always pick a force-based relic. Next, the damage type is either mitigated by armor (Kinetic and Energy) or non-mitigated (Internal and Elemental). This allows for four unique relics; prior to 2.0 they were:

 

• Cerulean Nova: Tech & Energy
  
• Kinetic Tempest: Force & Kinetic
  
• Dark Radiance: Tech & Internal
  
• Elemental Transcendence: Force & Elemental
  

 

Since 2.0 they have been a bit messed up, including the tooltips. The best thing to do it buy one then go hit the dummy for 5m. If your observed crit rate is single digits you have the wrong attack type.

 

For Carnage you may want the armor mitigated damage as Gore provides periods of 100% armor penetration. For Annihilation, you want the non-mitigated damage.

Shouldn't we pick the proc relic based on the majority damage type the class/spec does and which abilities are used the most? If you look at Torparse, Carnage Marauders do the vast majority of their damage as energy while Annihilation also do mostly energy but not as much as Carnage. So shouldn't we pick Cer. Nova for both cases?

Another example can be Deception Assassin which most of their attacks are kinetic (Voltaic Slash, Maul). Since these are used the most shouldn't we pick Kinetic Tempest for more procs?

If I'm thinking about this all wrong please let me know...

EDIT: btw, I have been reading your guide this week and that is some good stuff. Thanks!

Shouldn't we pick the proc relic based on the majority damage type the class/spec does and which abilities are used the most?

No, there is no correlation between other damage types and relic damage type.

If you look at Torparse, Carnage Marauders do the vast majority of their damage as energy while Annihilation also do mostly energy but not as much as Carnage. So shouldn't we pick Cer. Nova for both cases?

No, there are two aspects to consider damage type and attack type. There are four attack types in the game, but at most two will be available to each class either Melee & Force or Ranged & Tech. You should see different Accuracy and Crit Chance % for these in your character screen as well. This is why you need to select the proper attack type relic Tech and Force crit chance will always be higher than ranged and melee crit due to the second primary stat*.

Next there are four damage types: Kinetic, Energy, Internal and Elemental. The first two are mitigated by armor, while the latter two are not. (I have no idea why they made four damage types when for all intents and purposes energy = kinetic and internal = elemental. There are not clear distinctions between advanced classes or Imperial/Republic.) Technically, any combination of attack and damage can exist even though not all of them do.

Another example can be Deception Assassin which most of their attacks are kinetic (Voltaic Slash, Maul). Since these are used the most shouldn't we pick Kinetic Tempest for more procs?

If I'm thinking about this all wrong please let me know...

Sorry you are thinking about it all wrong.

EDIT: btw, I have been reading your guide this week and that is some good stuff. Thanks!

Thanks

There was on old reddit post talking about this:

http://redd.it/1aj5gu

In it they said:

Dark Radiance (Internal Proc): Aim or Cunning class WITHOUT armor penetration

Elemental Transcendence (Elemental Proc): Strength or Willpower class WITHOUT armor penetration

The Kinetic Tempest (Kinetic Proc): Aim or Cunning class WITH armor penetration

The Cerulean Nova (Energy Proc): Strength or Willpower class WITH armor penetration

and for raids:

The Kinetic Tempest (Kinetic Proc): Aim or Cunning class

The Cerulean Nova (Energy Proc): Strength or Willpower class

since there will always be one class applying AP debuff in a raid

Do you agree with these?

I still can not understand why Armor Penetration is important when selecting a proc Relic?

Is there a definitive way to tell that a class has AP? If they have any AP ability (e.g. Gore, Tracer Missile) does that mean they have AP in general?

Thanks for your help!

There was on old reddit post talking about this:

http://redd.it/1aj5gu

This linked info is from prior to 2.0. Unfortunately, in 2.0 they switched some of the internal/elemental relics around so I would not trust the out-of-date information.

I still can not understand why Armor Penetration is important when selecting a proc Relic?

Operations Bosses have 35% armor reduction. The fly-text numbers you see are net of this. In other words, if you see 6,500 damage from an attack you really did 10,000 damage, and the boss's armor negated 3,500 or 35% of it. Some classes have an ability (Merc's Tracer Missile, Juggernaut's Sundering Assault and Sniper's Shattershot) that reduces the boss's armor rating by 20%, this effectively reduces the mitigation to 30%. Thus, with the armor debuff on your 10,000 hit would now do 7,000 damage. Note, these armor debuffs are assigned to the boss whereas Gore/Precision Slash is a buff on the player.

At the Underworld level, the energy/kinetic relic does 352 per proc while the internal/elemental does 264. However, the energy/kinetic relic is partially mitigated by the boss's armor - 35% - which means it effective damage is 229. With the armor debuff on the boss the damage becomes 247. (There is also some other modifications to this, which makes it even more specific for each spec.)

I personally suggest you pick the relic that allows you to perform the best in isolation. In the case of Annihilation, you will want the force-based internal/elemental relic and a Serendipitous Assault Relic. As Carnage, you will want the force-based kinetic/energy relic and a Serendipitous Assault Relic.

Make sense?

^ Right as usual! The only problem is figuring out for Annihlation whether we should use DR or ET or if they work the same and the tooltip is accurate.

I'd love to know which one a sniper should use and assume it's the other of the above that Marauders don't use

This linked info is from prior to 2.0. Unfortunately, in 2.0 they switched some of the internal/elemental relics around so I would not trust the out-of-date information.

 

Operations Bosses have 35% armor reduction. The fly-text numbers you see are net of this. In other words, if you see 6,500 damage from an attack you really did 10,000 damage, and the boss's armor negated 3,500 or 35% of it. Some classes have an ability (Merc's Tracer Missile, Juggernaut's Sundering Assault and Sniper's Shattershot) that reduces the boss's armor rating by 20%, this effectively reduces the mitigation to 30%. Thus, with the armor debuff on your 10,000 hit would now do 7,000 damage. Note, these armor debuffs are assigned to the boss whereas Gore/Precision Slash is a buff on the player.

 

At the Underworld level, the energy/kinetic relic does 352 per proc while the internal/elemental does 264. However, the energy/kinetic relic is partially mitigated by the boss's armor - 35% - which means it effective damage is 229. With the armor debuff on the boss the damage becomes 247. (There is also some other modifications to this, which makes it even more specific for each spec.)

 

I personally suggest you pick the relic that allows you to perform the best in isolation. In the case of Annihilation, you will want the force-based internal/elemental relic and a Serendipitous Assault Relic. As Carnage, you will want the force-based kinetic/energy relic and a Serendipitous Assault Relic.

 

Make sense?

Makes complete sense! I've been on like 3 or 4 forums trying to understand relics and you are the first to explain how AP is factored in. So a couple more questions:

a. You say the kinetic relic would hit for 247 if the boss has AR (which is still less than the internal damage relic), however, if it procs in a Gore window it will hit for the full 352 right?

b. Are we not sure which relic is which? So in the case of a Carnage Marauder we don't really know which relic is the force-kinetic/energy so I should test Cer. Nova and Kinetic Tempest?

Thanks!

mlambros: I believe the Kinetic Tempest (KT) relic is what is being referred to for carnage/combat spec.

That said, I parse lower on the training dummy and in encounters using the Underworld SA + Underworld KT relics than I do with Underworld SA + Elite War Hero Relic of Boundless Ages, the 120 power relic from pre-2.0. All tests were performed after the 2.3 relic fix. For most players it's a moot point since the EWH is no longer available but I found it curious since most of the guides I've run across suggest the EWH relic was already inferior pre-2.0 compared to Dread Guard clicky relics and certainly compared to the UW options. I've been trying to figure out if or what I'm doing wrong (or right) but haven't nailed it yet.

Just re-posting this from the other side:

Also of note is that as of when I was last online (it could have been ninja fixed tonight) Serendipitous Assault of different types WILL proc together. Will edit in a few minutes when I find it in one of my parses.

18:37:57.971 Kàryu gains Power Surge.

18:37:57.973 Kàryu gains 3 rage point.

18:37:58.461 Malfunctioning Controller's Combustion hits Kàryu for 3397 kinetic damage, causing 3397 threat.

18:37:58.892 Kàryu's Force Charge hits Malfunctioning Controller for 1146 energy damage, causing 1146 threat.

18:37:59.584 Kàryu activates Battering Assault.

18:37:59.584 Kàryu gains 6 rage point.

18:37:59.585 Kàryu activates Deadly Saber.

18:37:59.585 Kàryu spends 3 rage point.

18:37:59.585 Kàryu gains Deadly Saber.

18:38:00.196 Kàryu's Battering Assault hits Malfunctioning Controller for 587 energy damage, causing 587 threat.

18:38:00.305 Kàryu's Battering Assault misses Malfunctioning Controller, causing 1 threat.

18:38:00.389 Kàryu activates Saber Ward.

18:38:00.389 Kàryu gains Saber Ward.

18:38:00.543 Kàryu's Battering Assault critically hits Malfunctioning Controller for 986* energy damage, causing 986 threat!

18:38:00.573 Kàryu activates Force Camouflage.

18:38:00.574 Kàryu gains Force Camouflage.

18:38:00.574 Kàryu's Force Camouflage causes -68111 threat loss on Malfunctioning Controller.

18:38:00.574 Kàryu's Force Camouflage causes -75 threat loss on Haywire Droid.

18:38:00.574 Kàryu's Force Camouflage causes -75 threat loss on Haywire Droid.

18:38:00.574 Kàryu's Force Camouflage causes -75 threat loss on Haywire Droid.

18:38:00.979 Kàryu's Saber Ward heals Kàryu for 336, causing 168 threat.

18:38:00.980 Malfunctioning Controller's Combustion hits Kàryu for 1698 kinetic damage, causing 1698 threat. (424 absorbed)

18:38:01.511 Kàryu loses Force Camouflage.

18:38:01.512 Kàryu activates Annihilate.

18:38:01.512 Kàryu spends 5 rage point.

18:38:01.512 Kàryu gains 1 rage point.

18:38:01.512 Kàryu gains Power Surge.

Running Arkanian Serendipitous Assault/Conqueror Serendipitous Assault. Procced ~4 seconds apart which means the second proc was unaffected by the first ICD

As a combat sent I do pretty hard with the UW kinetic tempest+ UW SA relics.

Be careful, in some language clients the relics are translated wrong, so be sure you use the english client. (in the german client for example it states kinetic tempest uw relic as tech dmg)

So it looks like for the time being its best to use two types of SA

Is there any data on which of the following combinations is better (for Carnage):

a. Boundless Ages + SA

b. Kinetic Tempest + SA

c. Boundless Ages + Kinetic Tempest

So it looks like for the time being its best to use two types of SA

 

Is there any data on which of the following combinations is better (for Carnage):

a. Boundless Ages + SA

b. Kinetic Tempest + SA

c. Boundless Ages + Kinetic Tempest

I think it comes down to the fight between A) and B). There are some fights where you need consistent damage (B) and others where you need damage on demand (A). It is my understanding though that if you cannot get the Underworld BA then the DG one is actually slightly better than the Arkanian one due to the higher static power. Someone correct me if I'm wrong though.

wow

didnt they break relics to fix that, and now they are right back where they started... awesome

and, yeah the DG does have a slightly higher time averaged power value.

for combat you need to consider the joint probability of the relic procing during that 100% window.

To the best of my knowledge…

The SA relic is currently BiS for essentially everyone. It provides a significantly higher damage increase for all specs than any of the other relics. So, it's just a question of second relic. For Carnage, you can pick between the Kinetic relic and the Boundless Ages. The BA relic has a stochastically lower damage contribution than the Kinetic proc damage relic, and much lower than the SA. However, as it is controlled burst power, it gains value significantly on fights with any downtime whatsoever (most of them) or with specs that have specific burst moments (e.g. Carnage and Rage). For these reasons, I prefer the BA relic for my Combat Sentinel, even though it almost certainly yields lower dummy parses.

Annihilation is a somewhat special case, since it has no specific burst moments and it already handles downtime quite horribly. I am fairly certain that this spec probably benefits more from the Dark Radiance relic (internal proc damage) than it would from the Boundless Ages. The SA is still a no-brainer.

Regarding dipstik's "joint probability" point, we can assume that the kinetic relic procs at an even interval (a fair assumption, given Carnage's insanely high hit rate). So, it's a question of stochastic average armor pen. This is computed as the following:

100 * (9 / 20) + 20 * (11 / 20) = 56%

Thus, including external armor debuff, Carnage marauders have 56% armor pen averaged over time, which is over the threshold at which the kinetic relic becomes better than the internal.

it looks like the kinetic does around 5 dps better than the internal based on my simulations. (4.5 better without 20% debuff on boss, and 5.5 better with). i only did 20 iterations of 60 second runs.. and i didnt include crit/surge

using ino's spreadhseet i see that 100 power increases dps by 40.43, so that gives me a power to dps conversion.

he has that underworld SA is an 81 dps increase, but i find that the time averaged power is 182 (assuming 22 seconds between procs), which gives me a 0.44505 conversion (not sure how he calced that... maybe the mainstat from augment...)

so that sets the conq SA relic around 56 dps.

the kinetic gives 50 dps pre crit/surge. after using 25% crit and 70% surge i get 58.75. so, it looks like the kinetic could be 2 dps better than a conq SA... but this is all averaged out. i think the high double power happening in the gore will give rediculous numbers.

Just re-posting this from the other side:

 

Also of note is that as of when I was last online (it could have been ninja fixed tonight) Serendipitous Assault of different types WILL proc together. Will edit in a few minutes when I find it in one of my parses.

 

 

 

Running Arkanian Serendipitous Assault/Conqueror Serendipitous Assault. Procced ~4 seconds apart which means the second proc was unaffected by the first ICD

I got curious about this and tested it with my Vengeance Juggy (my Marauder is still a lowbie). I had an extra Partisan SA and equipped it along with my Underworld SA. I parsed on the dummy and yes I did get concurrent Power Surges (I did not pop any other buff or adrenal).

So having two types of SA is probably the best relic combination until they "fix" the stacking (or not?)

08:36:16.119 Zeuxis gains Power Surge.

08:36:16.120 Zeuxis's Sundering Throw adds effect Armor Reduced to Operations Training Dummy.

08:36:16.120 Zeuxis gains Power Surge.

08:36:16.137 Zeuxis's Saber Throw hits Operations Training Dummy for 1852 energy damage, causing 1852 threat.

08:36:17.105 Zeuxis activates Force Charge.

08:36:17.105 Zeuxis gains Unstoppable.

08:36:17.106 Zeuxis gains 3 rage point.

08:36:18.006 Zeuxis's Force Charge hits Operations Training Dummy for 1300 energy damage, causing 1300 threat.

08:36:18.590 Zeuxis activates Shatter.

08:36:18.591 Zeuxis spends 5 rage point.

08:36:18.591 Zeuxis gains Savagery.

08:36:18.591 Zeuxis gains 1 rage point.

08:36:18.591 Zeuxis's Shatter adds effect Bleeding (Physical) to Operations Training Dummy.

08:36:18.592 Zeuxis gains 3 rage point.

08:36:19.251 Zeuxis's Shatter hits Operations Training Dummy for 2614 elemental damage, causing 2614 threat.

08:36:20.211 Zeuxis activates Ravage.

08:36:20.211 Zeuxis gains Unshakable.

08:36:20.794 Zeuxis gains Destroyer.

08:36:20.795 Zeuxis's Ravage hits Operations Training Dummy for 2448 energy damage, causing 2448 threat.

08:36:21.023 Zeuxis loses Unstoppable.

08:36:21.209 Zeuxis's Ravage hits Operations Training Dummy for 2442 energy damage, causing 2442 threat.

08:36:21.717 Zeuxis's Bleeding (Physical) critically hits Operations Training Dummy for 1724* elemental damage, causing 1724 threat!

08:36:22.130 Zeuxis loses Power Surge.

08:36:22.130 Zeuxis loses Power Surge.

Finally got my second underworld relic tonight (been running with the UW SA + DG BA till now). I was pretty sure I'd go for the Kinetic Tempest, but with the double SA stacking bug appearing again (and with no notice if it gets fixed) I am unsure whether I should get the UW BA and use that in fights such as Kephess and run double SA otherwise or keep the token for a while and see if the bug is fixed again. Knowing my roll luck it'll probably be another three months till I get the next relic.

The double SA proc during gore gives insane burst damage. include adrenal and BT and the damage is out of this world.

Hopefully BW will come with a statement soon whether the double SA proc will stay in the game or not. I tested with UW + Arkanian SA, as well, but they never procced together, but rather after each other. I got twice the uptime, but less burst. I assume it is the same for UW + KD SA.

Finally got my second underworld relic tonight (been running with the UW SA + DG BA till now). I was pretty sure I'd go for the Kinetic Tempest, but with the double SA stacking bug appearing again (and with no notice if it gets fixed) I am unsure whether I should get the UW BA and use that in fights such as Kephess and run double SA otherwise or keep the token for a while and see if the bug is fixed again. Knowing my roll luck it'll probably be another three months till I get the next relic.

 

The double SA proc during gore gives insane burst damage. include adrenal and BT and the damage is out of this world.

 

Hopefully BW will come with a statement soon whether the double SA proc will stay in the game or not. I tested with UW + Arkanian SA, as well, but they never procced together, but rather after each other. I got twice the uptime, but less burst. I assume it is the same for UW + KD SA.

This WILL get fixed and chances are it will be just after your refund period on the relic ends (or after you Aug it). I'd get whatever nonsa one you wanted and just bank it until it gets fixed.

This WILL get fixed and chances are it will be just after your refund period on the relic ends (or after you Aug it). I'd get whatever nonsa one you wanted and just bank it until it gets fixed.

I think I will keep the token for now. See what happens. Double SA > SA + BA/KT anyway, so until it gets fixed I have no real hurry. Got to applaud BW yet again - it really is amazing how they manage to reintroduce this bug.

What are you using as your second SA? Conqueror?

I personally use UW/Ark.

I think I will keep the token for now. See what happens. Double SA > SA + BA/KT anyway, so until it gets fixed I have no real hurry. Got to applaud BW yet again - it really is amazing how they manage to reintroduce this bug.

On the one hand I agree with you that it is rather silly of them to have broken procs to start with, then fixed the way over-powered combination but broken what should have been the real BiS combination, then in order to fix what they broke they broke the whole thing all over again. Its just a comedy of errors. On the other, it really depends how the relics are coded since it could be a matter of bad/lazy programming in the way the relics are identified within the game in which case the fix could be a lot more difficult than adding an 'if'. In the end, we have to suck it up and make do for the moment and hope that when it gets fixed things are not more broken than when we started.