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6.0 Utility change suggestions


yellow_'s Avatar


yellow_
06.16.2018 , 07:40 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Ld-Siris View Post


Have you actually played or a mara or do sometimes maras just mess you up in pvp?
i was 2600 in solo ranked last season on mara

anyone who wants mara buffs for pvp almost certainly doesn't know what they're talking about

AdjeYo's Avatar


AdjeYo
06.16.2018 , 09:41 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Ld-Siris View Post
Raid Buffs
I'm just going to group these together. Relentless, Unbound, Phantom, and Expunging Camo. I find these utilities as a must especially facing a sniper who has a 7.5s leg shot among other things. The Sorc raid but requires a tiny bit of force. The Ops consumes on 1 TA and not a big deal to the Op dps and nothing for an op healer. And the Mercs is less so as they have a passive for gaining stacks. At least for Arsenal they pretty much do the same thing but I can say for heals or IO. We on the other had as state require fury and berserk for our rotation no matter the spec so having berserk, predation, and bloodthirst all requiring a stack is a bit much. I think its time that either berserk gets taken off fury (Tho I am afraid what that will do to our rotations) or put bloodthirst on something else. Currently I almost never use blood thirst anymore because its such a waste.


As for Relentless, Unbound, Phantom, and Expunging camo I do think there needs to be a change. Requiring 4 Utilities Just to get decent mobility is ridiculous, especially compared to other classes. Now predation is a raid buff so I believe altering it too much might make it too OP. If anything were to happen I'd say during the first 6s of predation make the marauder *only* immune to roots on top of the actual root braking.

or

Make Phantom just a passive. Expunging camo can still be a utility but phantom should just be a passive as the marauder is all about speed and mobility. We are tanks we don't sit and take damage, we fly and deal it.
I think it would be an idea just to take all Raid buffs and not make them cost anything. Sorcs already get to pop them for free and operatives pay little. Why should Maras and Merc sacrifice significant dps to put out raidbuff?
However I disagree with making phantom or predation root break passive. Sure maras have like four utilities for max mobility (phantom, relentless, unbound and expunging camo), but even if you take only two of those, you're still going to have very solid mobility compared to says juggs, mara's sister spec. Just taking relentless and unbound gives maras a 30 second cooldown root break + 80% movement speed increase, which is arguably one of the best mobility abilities available. Add to that charge and mad dash and possibly force camouflage as well, well that's kinda crazy imo.

Ld-Siris's Avatar


Ld-Siris
06.16.2018 , 06:32 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by AdjeYo View Post
I think it would be an idea just to take all Raid buffs and not make them cost anything. Sorcs already get to pop them for free and operatives pay little. Why should Maras and Merc sacrifice significant dps to put out raidbuff?
However I disagree with making phantom or predation root break passive. Sure maras have like four utilities for max mobility (phantom, relentless, unbound and expunging camo), but even if you take only two of those, you're still going to have very solid mobility compared to says juggs, mara's sister spec. Just taking relentless and unbound gives maras a 30 second cooldown root break + 80% movement speed increase, which is arguably one of the best mobility abilities available. Add to that charge and mad dash and possibly force camouflage as well, well that's kinda crazy imo.
I do quite agree with you tbh however I'm just thinking of all the roots in the game that have a CD of between 10-15s. Like snipers have legshot that root you for 5 secs on a 15s CD (13s with alacrity) AND they root you on cover pulse for 5 seconds. For sorc you can be rooted on creeping terror every 10s or lightnings chain lightning. Oh and there is the electric bindings utility for sorcs and sins. And the nameless other roots.


With that said tho I believe the real problem is there are too many movement controlling effects in the game. My goal of that post was to give more of a choice of utilities than have a set of utilities that you have to take otherwise you are just screwed.

WayOfTheWarriorx's Avatar


WayOfTheWarriorx
06.16.2018 , 08:28 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by yellow_ View Post
what is it about marauder players that makes them so uniquely oblivious to how good their class is

at least sniper and merc players have the good graces not to make awful threads demanding buffs to their obviously well -performing specs
It's Fury, not Marauders. You see a lot of Carnage marauders running around in PVP or on NiM/HM Progression teams do you?

I'm not asking for buffs. But, Carnage's DPS should be a lot higher compared to a lot of other classes. It shouldn't have the lowest DPS cieling among Melee DPS specs or ranged for that matters. I've played Carnage for 6 years straight and I still play it, it's unmitigated Garbage compared to other classes. Marauder DPS should always be the highest among it's spec type. It's pure DPS class, it should have the highest DPS. It doesn't have any heals or cc immunity, it should not be outclassed by people running around with heals and off heals, and perma stealth and guards and taunts and cleanes and my personal favorite bring people back from the friggen dead while in combat. it's damage is pitiful compared to other classes. I'm talking straight spec wise.

You don't agree with that, that's your perogative. I don't share your view about Carnage or Anni for that matter because its just a ton of fluff like madness its not overperforming.

Not one spec has been nerfed as many times as Carnage has in 5.x. Not one. It is the only spec that received two consecutive DPS nerfs. It's saddled with a beserk ability that no longer provides any function to it, its wholey unnecessary since the play style change. Its a useless ability and even if it benefited from the higher alacrity build, which it doesn't, it would still be an uneven distribution of alacrity every other rotation. If you change the entire play style in addition to nerfing the crap out of it the least you can do is given them a berserk ability that actually does something useful for them. They simply have no need for that level of alacrity.

I don't know anyone in their right mind that thinks Carnage is good, the only reason I'm still playing that crap is because I don't jump ship whenever the wind blows in a different direction. Fury is strong as hell and Carnage is weak as hell comparatively and Fury is better in every single way. That nifty little dot they have on Ravage, that was originally Carnage's. Fury still has a 6 second cc immunity every 26 seconds, Carnage and Anni have to eat every last CC effect that goes their way and can't hope to keep up with them given its amount of breakers.


I played with some healer a few weeks ago who was awesome, never met him before but he was so good that I had to complement him on his performance, he was fantastic and when I told him I played Carnage this was his response - https://ibb.co/jfmw7y [click on image to zoom in] and this is fairly much the kinds of things I hear people say about Carnage.

I do well with Carnage because Ive been playing it so long, in and of itself, I'm my estimation especially compared to what it was and how it compares to other DPS specs, it is total garbage. It should be doing better comparatively.


They have excellent DCDs that can't hope to cover them over the long term. They just have too long of a CD compared to uptime in some cases. You will spend on average 65% of the time in your average length WZ without an active DCD. Anyone who thinks heals don't play a large part in overall survivability isn't someone who's opinion will matter to me.
Nothing can save this meta, I don't want them to change a thing its a lost cause. My hope lies solely in 6.0 and its reordering of the classes.

Comparing Anni and Carnage to Fury and not seeing a significant difference in performance between them is nothing short of Dumb.

You are entitled to your opinion, I don't share it.

WayOfTheWarriorx's Avatar


WayOfTheWarriorx
06.16.2018 , 08:42 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Ld-Siris View Post
I couldn't agree more with everything you said. The marauder in general was always meant to be a fast acting high dps performing glass cannon. It was never about if you were going to die, but when you did how many people did you take down with you. but all that changed a long time ago.


And the main reason they messed carnage up so bad was the fact that IT was the hybrid (quasi) spec and Fury was burst. During 5.x they decided to change it. They made fury the hybrid (quasi) and carnage the burst. The problem is rage jugg is still burst so now you have the fury class whose burst is higher then Carnage (which is now the actual burst spec) plus having good sustained damage. Plus its the only spec that better performs in the mobility section. I don't understand why range classes in this game have so many mobility and the ability to root the melee.


And I'm not even talking about how much perfect a sniper has about being the marauder's anticlass.



Have you actually played or a mara or do sometimes maras just mess you up in pvp?
What you just said, I couldn't agree with more heh That's exactly what happened to Carnage and everyone seems to forget that from 1.x til 5.0 Carnage was always the 'quasi-burst spec' and Fury was the 'burst' spec. I'm glad you had the good sense to put that out there as I failed to recall to do.

Yeah and than ranged wants to say that "there is no difference in uptime between melee and ranged". Idiots.
I absolutely hate Snipers, I see them just like you do, the arch nemisis of our kind heh. The amount of control they can inflict on most melee is unbelievable and that cheese ball AOE slow of Engins that has no coold down can be replied at will and can effectively kept going 100% of the time is my favorite. Yeah because 50% is so much better than 70%, night and day right? heh Plus when there is more than one of them they just put side by side, no chance your getting out of that, even if you use something to break the effect it doesnt matter they just put a brand new one right back down on top of you all over again. And the roll and root, that's not broken? -They can attack you, you can't attack them.

People act like we always have all out cooldowns at the ready, that we shouldn't have used our breaker for some other CC we just got hit with and assume we always have that option which we don't.

Ya know the irony is that from 5.0 to 5.2 people were saying that Marauders were the most balanced class in the game, you can still find those posts if you look for em. As near as I can recall, all that has happened since than is nerf after nerf after nerf for Carnage and Anni. So if I'm getting worse, how did I get better?

Let's take a look at how great Carnage is now. - http://parsely.io/parser/stats / http://parsely.io/parser/leaderboard...00/all/live/0/

Everyone hates Marauders, we are always the boggie man.

WayOfTheWarriorx's Avatar


WayOfTheWarriorx
06.16.2018 , 08:55 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by yellow_ View Post
i was 2600 in solo ranked last season on mara

anyone who wants mara buffs for pvp almost certainly doesn't know what they're talking about
Ohh Arena's hard. Ya think maybe the healers had something to do with that?

You think you woulda been 2600 if you never had a healer?

Ranked is a Joke now and you know it. Rating means absolutely nothing because it is not based solely on you. Unless you were alone the whole time. You might wanna take a look around the boards some and get an idea how people view ranked now.

I don't doubt your an excellent player, but I do doubt that you are the only one. You are not a spec, you are a player. There isn't one spec in this game some people just suck at and others are great at. You mean nothing to the statistical overview nor do I.

There isn't always a healer around to help with the heals. That matters.

I hate to have to tell you this because I'm sure you love it, but no one is impressed by rating anymore.
Not only that, but raiders have a saying and I'm sure you probably despise raiding and you think you would breeze through DF/DP NIM.

"Parse or it didn't happen". You're rating is not solely based on you, its also based on who you had on your team. One person could very easily take that rating away from you by their performance.

Everyone knows what goes on in Ranked. All the cheating, win-trading, hacks and other backdoor BS. I don't expect anyone to say they got their rating by illicit means. Again, I'm sure you are an excellent player, but you are not telling me one thing about Carnage.

I'm sure you know who Hoppi is, he could destroy on on a Lightning Sorc. Should we assume that Lightning Sorcs are OP because of that?

We don't matter. The specs do.

yellow_'s Avatar


yellow_
06.17.2018 , 05:35 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by WayOfTheWarriorx View Post
Ohh Arena's hard. Ya think maybe the healers had something to do with that?

You think you woulda been 2600 if you never had a healer?
He played the "you're bad or don't play mara" card. If you go with an ad hominem you can expect a response of the sort that I gave. He dropped it after that, maybe you should too?

if you actually played the game mode you're pretending to know so much about you'd know that luck has basically nothing to do with climbing to very high ratings, that many high rated players really did earn it, and that most solo ranked games don't actually have healers in them (and therefore your response here just sounds petty and absurd)

I genuinely don't know if carnage parses where it is supposed to but I definitely do know these buff mara threads are not just suggesting that carnage's dummy parse get fixed and that we can go home happy. They suggest ridiculous stuff like RA should never have been nerfed or, as is the case in this thread, that the current relentless utility should just be passive to the marauder class (seriously?), giving them another point to spend elsewhere. As if that wasn't bad enough, in a subsequent post they unironically claim the changes they are suggesting will not "affect actual combat capability."

aside from fixing parses, which I do not pay attention to, the only moves that should be on the table are leaving mara mostly the same or adding additional minor nerfs, perhaps to fury in particular

Quote: Originally Posted by Mycroft-Tarkin View Post
Marauders are already the best performing melee class in PvP. If anything they should be nerfed, along with Mercs and Snipers.
first reply best reply

TmoneyTime's Avatar


TmoneyTime
06.25.2018 , 10:31 PM | #18
Also when we at at fixing carnage can we fix anni/watchman as well. Can we get the old healing back would also like to out parse fury since its a sustained melee dps spec, you know the thing that it should be the best at. Fury should not be out parsing a sustained dps spec. The healing would now be balanced with all the heal to fulls in the game. 10% heal of off crit dots in no way would be op in the current game state. that is a 500 hps per crit dock tick so with zen it would be 2-3% total heal.... I don't thinks that's much to ask form.


Just to add on currently the theoretical max parse of each specs (this is based on quickest to 500,000 total damage watchman closes in on combat around 2,000,000 damage but 500,000 is a more realistic time frame)..... not like something isn't wrong


Watchman / Annihilation 9736.20
Combat / Carnage 10935.10
Concentration / Fury 11819.84

Rion_Starkiller's Avatar


Rion_Starkiller
06.26.2018 , 09:31 AM | #19
Before the nerf, there were plenty of carnage maras in HM / NiM ops. There's not as many any more, though the 8m prog group I run with still has a combat sent. He's particularly good at it. There's definitely still a huge skill gap for that spec.

Not sure why Fury/Concentration was made to be so strong in pvp. Personally, I've always played Watchman, but a lot of the fun of that spec was the old Master Strike channeled ability. It was a really good filler (that you could clip). Without it, the spec feels off.... like something isn't right. Therefore, I agree with OP's suggestion to revert Ravage/ Master Strike to it's old 3s channel. Though I doubt it makes much sense for the other 2 specs.
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Bird_of_Thunder's Avatar


Bird_of_Thunder
07.09.2018 , 01:11 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Rion_Starkiller View Post
Not sure why Fury/Concentration was made to be so strong in pvp. Personally, I've always played Watchman, but a lot of the fun of that spec was the old Master Strike channeled ability. It was a really good filler (that you could clip). Without it, the spec feels off.... like something isn't right. Therefore, I agree with OP's suggestion to revert Ravage/ Master Strike to it's old 3s channel. Though I doubt it makes much sense for the other 2 specs.
Agreed, Fury sucks. I absolutely hate playing that spec.

The Master Strike/Ravage change, as a Carnage main, I agree with. It'd help with the pacing of the spec now that we have Ferocity as a stacked ability instead of timed, and it sort of eliminates resource management problems (not that there were many in the first place) and really any downtime. Gives us a more interesting filler rather than "Massacre til the burst is back up". Plus, who doesn't want more damage?
Drazir
Carnage Marauder
Ebon Hawk, U.S --> Star Forge, U.S.