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Game Balance


WayOfTheWarriorx's Avatar


WayOfTheWarriorx
06.01.2018 , 08:31 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP View Post
The fundamental issue is: skanking is currently the optimal way to tank pvp. Outside of philosophy (not even theory) there is NO reason to run def/shield/absorb for pvp.

The devs themselves have admitted this, dismissing it as an "expansion level issue."

Hypothetically speaking: lets pretend for a moment that alac/crit/accuracy did not help you do more damage, but tanking stats did help your survival. How would you gear? At this point using the hypothetically useless stats would be pointless and sub-optimal.

This is where tanks stand: the gear we are supposed to use for pvp is next to pointless. Massive yellow damage burst crits will hit me regardless of how i gear, ergo i gear for high endurance and throw in dps stats rather than ones that don't help me.

Until they fix the gearing issue: A tank is more of a playstyle than gear. 99% of skanks are stupid morons who jumped onto the nonsensical "tank spec does more dps than vigi/other dps spec" bandwagon, just as 99% of fury maras are crappy FOTM rollers. I've shared my little "it takes 600k damage on average to kill me once" pic twice now.

Tldr: until they "fix" tank stats, a skank is a pvp tank. Nothing more, nothing less.
I know what you're saying bro, and If you remember back some months,perhaps you will recall me saying something to the effect "While I don't think skank tanking should be possible, I do understand why people do it and don't hold that against them as they would only be worse than they have to be".

That stance was based on things you said.

I do have one small issue though and even this is open to interpretation so I can't say I definitively think this but it is a leaning. I get that running more defense would only provide you with about a 4% increase to your defense chance while the same amount of stat pool put into power or mastery would grant you a higher yield in DPS with the same amount of points than it would grant you using them in defense.

This confuses me a little bit. I don't disagree with the numbers, its 4% or a much higher yeild in DPS and quite honestly I can never blame anyone for wanting higher DPS heh. The thing is though, we know that you can't sheild against yellow damage criticals, and so you have no choice but to eat that damage. At the same time, by not using that extra 4% to defense, this insures you will definitely be taking more white damage than you would have if you had that extra 4% defense in place. I know 4% isn't all that much, but when you consider the amount of times people attack you in PVP, that defense chance is rolled against every attack roll [more or less] so it would stand to reason than there would be times when that 4% difference would have made the difference and caused you to not take damage from an attack. This would be variable of course and in some WZs this difference might very small in others it might be more than you would idealy to see. Totally random of course. The thing is there is only way to know how much of a difference it would and does make and that would be using a parsing program in WZs, which function perfectly and are just as relative to PVP in terms of the information they provide as in PVE. There is nothing that takes place, defenses, attacks, CCs, passives, non attack abilities, etc that isn't monitored and included in a parse. It isn't just DPS, in fact, it's more non DPS information that it is DPS. Not only that, it will also tell you every ability anyone used against you. A combat log logs every single thing and can be read after as a play by play. This would tell you exactly how many attacks you could have avoided if you had that extra 4% and how much damage to the point you took because of it that could have been avoided.

Im pretty sure you were a HM/NiM progression raider in the past like me if memory serves so you probably know all this already.

I know [or rather if I remember hearing you correctly] that you are less concerned about white damage than yellow damage, and if that is in fact the case for a tank in PVP, there aren't many specs that do a majority of their damage as white damage. I can however tell you as a Carnage Marauder that almost all of the damage I do is white damage. There is only one attack that Carnage uses regularly [rotationaly/priority] as that is yellow damage and that is Devistating Blast which is it's hardest hitting attack. The majority of which will be critical hits if done correctly. Naturally you will have to eat all of that damage and that can go as high as 33K [well that's the highest I ever got it at any rate, perhaps other's have hit higher, 29-31k is the more normal damage range with BT.
DBs can also be followed up by 28K VTs and 30K Gores [those are high damage rolls not the norm], both of which are white damage, and Carnage has a filler [Massacre] attack that can crit as high as 16-17k [those being high damage rolls as well] but for a filler attack that ain't bad! Ravage you know about.

Playing Devil's advocate just for shzts and giggles, lets just for argument sake say that 4% came up and you are taking those VT and Gore hits in addition to the DB Crit damage. That's 91 K damage in three seconds. While as a tank you are capable of taking that amount of damage and mitigating part of it, that additional 58K white damage even mitigated I would think is still something that you would much rather prefer to avoid Even if that only bought you 5 extra seconds of life, that's 5 more seconds the healer has a guard on them and 5 more seconds that healer has to try and burst heal you or someone else. That's 5 extra seconds your group is not taking 30% more damage. [From Taunt] One extra player at the right time even for a rather short amount of time can make the difference sometimes.

I guess my point is this, you could be better as a tank potentially, you are knowingly not maximizing your survivability, for which your fellow team members are counting on you as a support class. Additionally all those added points put into a skank tanks DPS and they are not going to be tempted to use that much stat point investment?

Now if you tell me I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I defer to your expertise at tanking totally and without reservation. That's just how it strikes me some times and while I don't question your integrity, can you really be sure that other skank tanks are not giving into the temptation to use all that stat point investment in DPS even at the expense of their tanking duties? I'd have no problem believing that from you, but I can't say I'm as optimistic of the integrity of all other skank tanks.

One last point. I'm not sure on this, I could certainly be wrong, but I have always been under the impression that tanking stats in PVP are intentionally not on par as with PVE as in PVP you are facing other player characters who are on a similar power scale to yourself, whereas in PVE tanking a boss, a boss's level of power far exceeds anything a player could even remotely come close to. How could someone who was strong enough to withstand the full attention of Dread Master Brontes on NiM and shirk off the strongest blows repeatedly over the series 10 -15 minutes not completely overwhelm anything a player character could do with total ease and lack of concern? I don't see how it would be even remotely possible to pose any threat whatsoever to a tank who can defeat Dread Master Brontes on NiM, or am I not taking something into consideration here? [Which is certainly possible].

Interested to hear your thoughts pal and I expect all of my points to be spanked by you =p

I'll be honest, I'm really not all that that concerned with skank tanks at this point. They took a DPS nerf which is not nothing. [It's unfortunate however that true tanks had to eat as well though, I wasn't happy with that at all]. My only point of contention with them is the walking trinity thing but even that is "Jack of all trades, master of none" thingy. There are bigger fish to fry and they are all holding guns =p

WayOfTheWarriorx's Avatar


WayOfTheWarriorx
06.01.2018 , 09:12 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Ellsiera View Post
Yeah ok

I've read the posts & thank you all for taking the time to respond.

Thus far no one has really addressed the "how" mara | sent goes about winning a 1v1 against a skrank.

In fact the intimation based on the responses seems to be that you really can't or shouldn't be able to 1v1 a skraner.

Which brings up the question of game balance.

How is sent | mara considered a dps class when they can be out dps'ed by a Tank in dps gear?

Seems to me this becomes a question of poor game design.

When Tanks can step out of their roles to become the superior & more versatile class Sents | Maras become second tier.
I did respond to your question, but to reiterate briefly -

A DPS can and should be able to outdps a skank tank. The only way a Skank can out DPS a Marauder would be if there are tight concentraitions of enemies close together that they can cleave and AOE on and thus fluff their numbers [although a Anni Mara should be able to out fluff them], if the skank tank is dieing less than the Marauder [which they absoutely should be doing,especially Jugg tanks now with their ED buff] and thus have greater amounts of uptime [you are seeing a lot more of this now with the Juggs], or lastly, the skank tank knows his class better than the Marauder or has more experience in PVP than them.

Single Target there is absolutely no reason a Marauder should not be outdpsing a skank tank other than suck. Experience and knowing one's spec and how to optimize one's personal DPS matter in the extreme and are enough of a reason alone to explain why it would go in favor of one of the other, let alone the other factors.

If you are looking for balance you have come to the wrong place. Balance in 5.x has gone from bad to worse and is totally broken. Even still Skill remains the most relative factor and can overcome imbalances where it is uneven between players. All things being equal, balance does not exist.

If you want to be at the top of the food chain in this game currently in PVP, play a Merc or a Sniper. As good as a Fury Marauder is, and they are, they are still not in as favorable position as a Merc or Sniper. This meta is all about Ranged, they hold the advantages. Some people will tell you that's not true, and all of those people are people who are playing Mercs and Snipers or both. They deny it because they want to keep their advantage.

Even still, that doesn't mean you can't do well. I play Carnage which is the worst melee DPS spec in the entire game and I can make it work fairly well, but that's only because of 6 years of experience playing nothing else, I am a one trick pony.

Looked at objectively, Fury is without question the strongest Mara spec going and by more than a little and that goes for both PVE as well as PVP.

supertimtaf's Avatar


supertimtaf
06.03.2018 , 10:15 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by WayOfTheWarriorx View Post
I know what you're saying bro, and If you remember back some months,perhaps you will recall me saying something to the effect "While I don't think skank tanking should be possible, I do understand why people do it and don't hold that against them as they would only be worse than they have to be".

That stance was based on things you said.

I do have one small issue though and even this is open to interpretation so I can't say I definitively think this but it is a leaning. I get that running more defense would only provide you with about a 4% increase to your defense chance while the same amount of stat pool put into power or mastery would grant you a higher yield in DPS with the same amount of points than it would grant you using them in defense.

This confuses me a little bit. I don't disagree with the numbers, its 4% or a much higher yeild in DPS and quite honestly I can never blame anyone for wanting higher DPS heh. The thing is though, we know that you can't sheild against yellow damage criticals, and so you have no choice but to eat that damage. At the same time, by not using that extra 4% to defense, this insures you will definitely be taking more white damage than you would have if you had that extra 4% defense in place. I know 4% isn't all that much, but when you consider the amount of times people attack you in PVP, that defense chance is rolled against every attack roll [more or less] so it would stand to reason than there would be times when that 4% difference would have made the difference and caused you to not take damage from an attack. This would be variable of course and in some WZs this difference might very small in others it might be more than you would idealy to see. Totally random of course. The thing is there is only way to know how much of a difference it would and does make and that would be using a parsing program in WZs, which function perfectly and are just as relative to PVP in terms of the information they provide as in PVE. There is nothing that takes place, defenses, attacks, CCs, passives, non attack abilities, etc that isn't monitored and included in a parse. It isn't just DPS, in fact, it's more non DPS information that it is DPS. Not only that, it will also tell you every ability anyone used against you. A combat log logs every single thing and can be read after as a play by play. This would tell you exactly how many attacks you could have avoided if you had that extra 4% and how much damage to the point you took because of it that could have been avoided.

Im pretty sure you were a HM/NiM progression raider in the past like me if memory serves so you probably know all this already.

I know [or rather if I remember hearing you correctly] that you are less concerned about white damage than yellow damage, and if that is in fact the case for a tank in PVP, there aren't many specs that do a majority of their damage as white damage. I can however tell you as a Carnage Marauder that almost all of the damage I do is white damage. There is only one attack that Carnage uses regularly [rotationaly/priority] as that is yellow damage and that is Devistating Blast which is it's hardest hitting attack. The majority of which will be critical hits if done correctly. Naturally you will have to eat all of that damage and that can go as high as 33K [well that's the highest I ever got it at any rate, perhaps other's have hit higher, 29-31k is the more normal damage range with BT.
DBs can also be followed up by 28K VTs and 30K Gores [those are high damage rolls not the norm], both of which are white damage, and Carnage has a filler [Massacre] attack that can crit as high as 16-17k [those being high damage rolls as well] but for a filler attack that ain't bad! Ravage you know about.

Playing Devil's advocate just for shzts and giggles, lets just for argument sake say that 4% came up and you are taking those VT and Gore hits in addition to the DB Crit damage. That's 91 K damage in three seconds. While as a tank you are capable of taking that amount of damage and mitigating part of it, that additional 58K white damage even mitigated I would think is still something that you would much rather prefer to avoid Even if that only bought you 5 extra seconds of life, that's 5 more seconds the healer has a guard on them and 5 more seconds that healer has to try and burst heal you or someone else. That's 5 extra seconds your group is not taking 30% more damage. [From Taunt] One extra player at the right time even for a rather short amount of time can make the difference sometimes.

I guess my point is this, you could be better as a tank potentially, you are knowingly not maximizing your survivability, for which your fellow team members are counting on you as a support class. Additionally all those added points put into a skank tanks DPS and they are not going to be tempted to use that much stat point investment?

Now if you tell me I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I defer to your expertise at tanking totally and without reservation. That's just how it strikes me some times and while I don't question your integrity, can you really be sure that other skank tanks are not giving into the temptation to use all that stat point investment in DPS even at the expense of their tanking duties? I'd have no problem believing that from you, but I can't say I'm as optimistic of the integrity of all other skank tanks.

One last point. I'm not sure on this, I could certainly be wrong, but I have always been under the impression that tanking stats in PVP are intentionally not on par as with PVE as in PVP you are facing other player characters who are on a similar power scale to yourself, whereas in PVE tanking a boss, a boss's level of power far exceeds anything a player could even remotely come close to. How could someone who was strong enough to withstand the full attention of Dread Master Brontes on NiM and shirk off the strongest blows repeatedly over the series 10 -15 minutes not completely overwhelm anything a player character could do with total ease and lack of concern? I don't see how it would be even remotely possible to pose any threat whatsoever to a tank who can defeat Dread Master Brontes on NiM, or am I not taking something into consideration here? [Which is certainly possible].

Interested to hear your thoughts pal and I expect all of my points to be spanked by you =p

I'll be honest, I'm really not all that that concerned with skank tanks at this point. They took a DPS nerf which is not nothing. [It's unfortunate however that true tanks had to eat as well though, I wasn't happy with that at all]. My only point of contention with them is the walking trinity thing but even that is "Jack of all trades, master of none" thingy. There are bigger fish to fry and they are all holding guns =p
To be honest, using tank gear in PvP does work. Like, you'll take less "white damage" like you said, or just simply shield more (even tho it is difficult with the stupid high amount of crit nowadays) the only issue is that PvP isn't like PvE.

In PvE, apart from being able to withstand hits, you also have Threat Generation to take into account. Threat Generation doesn't happen in PvP. Players won't target you because you used taunt. In PvP tbh, the only thing that makes players react is damage taken.
Being super tanky can be good, but apart from taking a long time to kill, you don't have anything else for your team. As an example,even a healer can be more tanky in this situation. Because some can survive as good as a tank and they also bring in heals for your team. As a pure tank, besides taking hits you don't have anything, not even the damage. Some peoples will argue about cc, but every class has at least two of those, so even in that case a tank isn't that usefull. So in a sense, to be more usefull you do have to trade that defensive stat bonus for raw power. Otherwise you won't do anything. You'll just die from exhaustion against a simple Carnage Mara, because he didn't take any damage from your weak attacks. The fight can be "long" (and most of the time it isn't, because of the crit vs shield bullsh*t) but you'll always lose because you cannot apply any pressure to the enemy, which is super important to PvP in this game.


Another thing to note is that most "big hitters" in this game aren't white damage. Sure there are some class that have white damage as burst, but those aren't common. Even in PvE, most of the damage taken during burst phase is yellow damage, which makes the defense stat even more useless as it is. The default tank gear is full of it, but you certainly don't need that much. You'll be better spending those stats into endurance or power because those are as usefull as Defense, if not more usefull. And those stats aren't RNG. This is also why the optimal dps setup nowadays is the high alac build. Because alac isn't RNG like crit, making it more valuable on the long term. It also benefits more than Power or Mastery because of the attack speed, making Alacrity the top stat right now. But that's not the subject

I hope i've answered a part of your questions ^^
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