There is no matchmaking in PVP in SWTOR and people who believe there is are fooling themselves. Even limited matchmaking wouldn't put 5 sages, 1 Commando healer, 1 vanguard and a gunslinger in a match and I have a screen shot to show you that it happens. All the sages had to do was overlap their circles and no amount of focused dps could dent them.

 

Image

There's only three sage healers in that screen shot. The other two are DPS Shadows with a VG, DPS Commando, and a DPS Gunslinger.

That's actually a pretty good spread of class roles.

Edit: And one of those sages spent a good bit of time DPSing.

Interesting perspective. I respectifully disagree though. I believe, that on average, a solo player is a BETTER player than a dedicated group player.

 

A group/premade only player tends to get 'lazy'. The rely on other classes/people to do well. They become reliant on the group and cannot function outside of the group. they need the coordinated ccs that a premade provides. Or the synergy of a predefined group. Thats why you see some of the 'elite' folks completely kick butt in premades, then they play a pug and they not play so well without a pocket healer, or vent communication, or stacked group of smashers or multiple cross healers. Then they log onto the forums and bemoan that premades should be the only option for pvp, cause they cannot compete on the same level in pugs that that can in premades.

 

IMHO, people who pug on a constant basis have to learn how to adapt on the fly to many different types of players, strategies, group makeup, etc. Anyone can excel in a dedicated premade. Its easy to pre-stack classes/healers/etc. The real skill is excelling in a group without healers, or without balanced classes. It takes skill to work as a group without vent, etc...

I disagree here, because often I find the best players are... simply the best players. Whether in a Premade or PuG, they excel. However, many of the best players understand the teamwork is the higher level of skill, and actively participate in said groups.

Just as PuG'ing it means you are unlikely to receive support, it is just as likely your opponents will not. So while you may excel (in skill/gear/class) 1 vs 1 situations (or even 2 vs 1) you may never have to deal with (or deal with consistently) situations where your enemies are supporting each other. Likewise, you may not know what to do -when supported.- I've seen healers run away from their guard, their guardian not sticking near them, healers still trying to kite (and thus not healing) when their attackers are being peeled, and perhaps my favorite (as a healer) is the number of PuG's who run -away- from the healer. (Then wonder why they weren't healed.)

Quite frankly, Grouping vs. Not Grouping has nothing to do with -personal- skill, and bad players will not excel in groups. Groups don't make good players, good players make groups.

I disagree here, because often I find the best players are... simply the best players. Whether in a Premade or PuG, they excel. However, many of the best players understand the teamwork is the higher level of skill, and actively participate in said groups.

 

Just as PuG'ing it means you are unlikely to receive support, it is just as likely your opponents will not. So while you may excel (in skill/gear/class) 1 vs 1 situations (or even 2 vs 1) you may never have to deal with (or deal with consistently) situations where your enemies are supporting each other. Likewise, you may not know what to do -when supported.- I've seen healers run away from their guard, their guardian not sticking near them, healers still trying to kite (and thus not healing) when their attackers are being peeled, and perhaps my favorite (as a healer) is the number of PuG's who run -away- from the healer. (Then wonder why they weren't healed.)

 

Quite frankly, Grouping vs. Not Grouping has nothing to do with -personal- skill, and bad players will not excel in groups. Groups don't make good players, good players make groups.

So basically what youre saying is all good people play in groups. Then remove solo queue from pvp and auto matchmaking, only let premade teams pvp and see what your are left with.

*Rolls eyes* Read what you like, as you've obviously not read anything I've said previously. I'm not wasting my time with drama queens.

This is a old topic that has not been addressed. I will say what I always say. Premade should equal automatic ranked. I find pvp just fine without premade teams.

Think it depends. If it's a 4 man group, check the guild affiliation in your ops frame, because you've probably got one of your own (or, at least, a 2 man). I don't see that as a problem that needs to be addressed.

On the other hand, anyone declining the wz pop until they get 2 groups of 4, 8 queueing the pug bracket is either a frightened weakling or a griefer. Ideally, that would be impossible to do.

Interesting perspective. I respectifully disagree though. I believe, that on average, a solo player is a BETTER player than a dedicated group player.

 

A group/premade only player tends to get 'lazy'. The rely on other classes/people to do well. They become reliant on the group and cannot function outside of the group. they need the coordinated ccs that a premade provides. Or the synergy of a predefined group. Thats why you see some of the 'elite' folks completely kick butt in premades, then they play a pug and they not play so well without a pocket healer, or vent communication, or stacked group of smashers or multiple cross healers. Then they log onto the forums and bemoan that premades should be the only option for pvp, cause they cannot compete on the same level in pugs that that can in premades.

 

IMHO, people who pug on a constant basis have to learn how to adapt on the fly to many different types of players, strategies, group makeup, etc. Anyone can excel in a dedicated premade. Its easy to pre-stack classes/healers/etc. The real skill is excelling in a group without healers, or without balanced classes. It takes skill to work as a group without vent, etc...

well written,but i cant agree..

im not saying that what you said doesnt EVER happen...im jsut saying i believe its not the rule.. let me explain..

Real premades usualy require you to be on par with your skills..use comunication efectively and have extended knowledge of the game(mechanics classes etc)..so its not ANY player that will succeed in the premade..i have kicked players, and seen players getting kicked because they are bad..because they cant SEE whats going on besides their tunnel vision(pretty comon for the average solo player)..they overlap ccs...they dont focus interrupt...they dotn swap fast enough..they dont comunicate..call for guards..healings....so, no its not ANY player that can succeed in a good premade.

now lets "reverse engeneer" your description of the solo player performance...

a solo player can only do what you saaid if he is actualy fighting another group of "solo" players that have zero coordination and pretty much average to no skill....If he si fighting agaisnt a coordinated skilled team he WONT shine by himself..it jsut wont happen.

I have played alot of rated pvp in diferent online games...succeeded in soem achieveing higehr then average ratings and i can tell you that at higher levels of play, apart form the ocasional inspired moment, solo hero performances are pretty rare, because people work in a team..for the team..and ANY good team will allways be better then one good solo player no matter what..Team synergie depends on individual skill being adapted to the team "playstyle..or rythym".

So, a good solo player wont ever do anythign special in a warzone if he is going agaisnt a TEAM of equally skilled palyer that happen to BE in a TEAM.

Obviously you get lwoer than average peopel that play with their friends and make premades that can even lose to pugs...but REAL premades..formed and handpicked to achieve wins(and that requires you to have good players in it) wont ever loose...no matter how good a solo player might be, he wont ever carry a whole team.

(sorry for my english)

""""""I disagree here, because often I find the best players are... simply the best players. Whether in a Premade or PuG, they excel. However, many of the best players understand the teamwork is the higher level of skill, and actively participate in said groups."""""""

You can be the best player in the world and if you solo pug you will not win more than 50% of your games. So this is really not true. Now that hypothetical best player will, however, still put up amazing stats in the most difficult situations but he will still lose more than he wins. (something I cannot do, but I'm not a great player). The fact is there are great players who solo and even more great players who are in hardcore pvp guilds. And both of you make valid points.

EA how long will it be before you respond to this thread? I've seen official responses to other rather mundane issues, yet here you have nothing to say. This makes me think nothing is going to change since they are ducking this issue. Developer response please. You responded to the nerf bubble boy thread, but not here.

Lies again :/ that wall of text is about individual and not about premades/solos.

I had "tunnel vision" for about 2 months. Now I see full fight picture. I know when enemy will switch capping point. I know when they hide into walls trying to cap etc. And I see others dont know that. Well, just a newbies. They will learn. Usually "stop fighting, play the ball" helps immediatlly. Such a words improves match very often.

But premades are harder to beat because they use outside game resources, like Vent. While I do 2nd strike (3 secs) on solo guardian there are 3 jumpers incoming into me. It's imposssible to repeat by PuGs using only inside-game tools. That's why premades always have advance even worse geared. I saw matches where PuGs made 400k+ each dmg and premades barelly 200k but won.

And as somebody said above - i'm introvert. I don't have even working phone, it's turned off and I use it only to make outgoing urgent calls. So I don't use any voice programs and wanna some fair fights where others will not use it too.

Also don't forget about disabled guys, who can't hear for example.

Any way, premades and solos should be split.

P.S. There are other games where u're forced "be a team", when you can't have rewards or even queue solo. Or 1 solo per day. In such games you could be right about teams. But swtor is not completely team-game. It allows alot of solo, so let it be fair.

Lies again :/ that wall of text is about individual and not about premades/solos.

 

I had "tunnel vision" for about 2 months. Now I see full fight picture. I know when enemy will switch capping point. I know when they hide into walls trying to cap etc. And I see others dont know that. Well, just a newbies. They will learn. Usually "stop fighting, play the ball" helps immediatlly. Such a words improves match very often.

 

But premades are harder to beat because they use outside game resources, like Vent. While I do 2nd strike (3 secs) on solo guardian there are 3 jumpers incoming into me. It's imposssible to repeat by PuGs using only inside-game tools. That's why premades always have advance even worse geared. I saw matches where PuGs made 400k+ each dmg and premades barelly 200k but won.

 

And as somebody said above - i'm introvert. I don't have even working phone, it's turned off and I use it only to make outgoing urgent calls. So I don't use any voice programs and wanna some fair fights where others will not use it too.

Also don't forget about disabled guys, who can't hear for example.

 

Any way, premades and solos should be split.

P.S. There are other games where u're forced "be a team", when you can't have rewards or even queue solo. Or 1 solo per day. In such games you could be right about teams. But swtor is not completely team-game. It allows alot of solo, so let it be fair.

without wanting to be an ******e....^ this is a perfect example on how "good" the majority of solo players are....

im glad u are not tunnel visioning anymore...

but still,

damage done?not...relevant...at all...coordinated cc > damage any day.......thats why you see premades win with way less damage, because, not like the solos., they dont go for max damage and medals...they go for the win.

also "....it allows alot of solo"...where? please name one warzone when you can win solo...like..you agaisnt 8....1 vs 8...because thats the only way you will showcase that there is "solo" play in 8 MAN warzones..

about being an introvert or disabled, im sorry but games are made for the masses, and even being really unfair, the game cant be adapted to minorities...(its a matter of money for the developers..)

Mosts are bad because as mentioned above nobody teaches them.

When I have good mood I start to command recrut people and win rate just grows up. I could do weekly in 1 day. If nobody explains/commands to newbies - they lose always. (And that is fun too, being "general" in very short time with lower gear, when we win i'm so proud ).

So, removing premades totally from queue will force them split. Some of them will be morons and leave match. Some of them will teach newbies.

also "....it allows alot of solo"...where? please name one warzone when you can win solo...like..you agaisnt 8....1 vs 8...because thats the only way you will showcase that there is "solo" play in 8 MAN warzones..

Solo queue EXISTS without any restrictions unlike other games. + it has class story + it has H2 which can be done with companion +++++....

So game helps solos to group up for task. So game admits solos.

Just play any other game. Like when you have to have 8 windows opened with 8 characters to do something solo. Such game has no options do anything alone unlike swtor.

There are several Pre-Made groups out there that are pretty much impossible to beat, unless you have the right team.

However, this as far as I am concerned does not make them any better than the majority of solo or small group pvpers in the game. Anyone can look good when they have the perfect grouping, we all know this, but get 1 or 2 of them isolated then you see how flawed and weak some of these Pre-Made PVPers actually are. I will not name the guilds guilty of packing their Pre-Mades with healers as one example, but they know who they are, and they will also know that if they have the need to pack their Pre-Mades with healers, then this does not prove they are better individually, because they simply are not .

I was in a mish mash group the other night that completely dominated a pub Pre-Made group from start to finish. Not even the Pub Pre-Made had any answers as to how they had there butts handed to them by a mish mash group, but it sure was nice to put them in their place and humble them once and for all as they had been dominating most of the evening, with all their "HEALS", but on this occasion they could of had 4 heals and still lost. So although the Pre-Mades are an annoyance sometimes, ultimately they are no better individually, and they know this, that is why they have the need to be in hand made groups because they are obviously unable to solo pvp to any high level, are looking to crush mish mash groups, which they do most of the time and this really lets them think that they are better. However, sometimes they will not have there Pre-Made groups then you see how weak they actually are, and they also know that .

The only true dominate Pre-Made group guild out there is Infinite Darkness, WOOPS and Physics, they really do know there stuff, and are pretty much unbeatable in anything when they are grouped up, especially Infinite Darkness who will go for complete wins ruthlessly, but does this make them superior pvpers individually?.

No, but like most MMOs the players reverse engineer the mechanics of the game years before the developers tell us anything. I gave a pretty decent explanation starting on page 87 of this thread, and it matched most peoples experience. Go back to the page and those following it for more details but here is some out of context explination.

Thanks for the response. Problem is I have a different number of posts per page, so this thread only goes up to 31 pages for me. If you'd be kind enough to give me a post no., then I could find it. I'm afraid I can't bring myself to re-read the entire thread for some reason.

But from what you say, there is no statement from the devs that there is currently any matchmaking. And though you use the term "reverse-enginerering", it seems what you're talking about is "feelings" of a handful of people, and that means nothing as evidence.

My own feeling is that there is no evidence of matchmaking - in normal warzzones at least - where I regularly see top-PvP-guild premades put against a grab-bag of pugs, even when there are loads of people on. These one-sided matches are a major reason I both think matchmaking would be a good idea and that it doesn't exist.

So given that the devs have never said there is matchmaking, and there is no evidence of matchmaking, it would be less misleading if people didn't make statements like "There is matchmaking in SWTOR PvP" as if they were statements of fact, when they aren't.

It was a statement like this I picked up on, and wondered whether I had missed some (surprising) conclusive confirmation.

I wish they create one new WZ that would:

1. Break up groups entering all WZs, and make each person enter solo into the matchmaking algoritm.

2. Remove all nametages from people. Everyone on your team is blue, other team is red. Generic title.

3. Cannot mark your own team member (to prevent people from marking their guildies).

4. Everyone has generic 'holo' look when entering this wz. eg. all sorcs look alike, all pts look alike, etc.

This one WZ where the pvp field would be nearly equal in terms of using out-of game resources like mumble/vent and in-game resources, like the chat-window. It wont stop people completely from using the advantage of vent, but it makes it alot harder to corrdinate in real time when all you see is red and blue/green. Asking for one equal WZ wouldnt be asking for too much...

I wish they create one new WZ that would:

1. Break up groups entering all WZs, and make each person enter solo into the matchmaking algoritm.

2. Remove all nametages from people. Everyone on your team is blue, other team is red. Generic title.

3. Cannot mark your own team member (to prevent people from marking their guildies).

4. Everyone has generic 'holo' look when entering this wz. eg. all sorcs look alike, all pts look alike, etc.

 

This one WZ where the pvp field would be nearly equal in terms of using out-of game resources like mumble/vent and in-game resources, like the chat-window. It wont stop people completely from using the advantage of vent, but it makes it alot harder to corrdinate in real time when all you see is red and blue/green. Asking for one equal WZ wouldnt be asking for too much...

Are you on drugs?

Nice idea. Also I assume it will have good FPS because of same-looking textures

I saw reports already that axes drop fps 10 times on wz already

P.S. Looks like I found usefull method to avoid premades. Logout for 3-4 hours, maybe a day.

You realize that would cause them to give up on a rated que popping much sooner than they currently do which would mean less total rared matches which means more rated capable players in the regular wzs?

 

Oh and I'd just like to debunk the whole "we have a 100+ page thread so clearly this is a huge issue for SWTOR and deserves a dev comment." The same people arguing back and forth makes a thread longer without doing anything to prove that more people actually care about the issue.

 

And finally, less cries for mediocrity please. Rise up to the level of the existing competition, don't ask for the rules to change so that you can be king of your own battlefield.

Perhaps it would, I don't know but the system as it is now simply is not working. I got hit with a crushing darkness the other night on my BM geared sage.

8k a tick. That's typical of the experience people get against a rated team in a regular pug wz.

I'm guessing he was min maxed and caught me with a crit but still. That alone tells me the gear gap needs to be addressed

without at least a chance to win new players are not going to keep playing. and frankly you gain nothing in the way of skill by being constantly curb stomped.

also I fixed your typos

There are several Pre-Made groups out there that are pretty much impossible to beat, unless you have the right team.

 

However, this as far as I am concerned does not make them any better than the majority of solo or small group pvpers in the game. Anyone can look good when they have the perfect grouping, we all know this, but get 1 or 2 of them isolated then you see how flawed and weak some of these Pre-Made PVPers actually are. I will not name the guilds guilty of packing their Pre-Mades with healers as one example, but they know who they are, and they will also know that if they have the need to pack their Pre-Mades with healers, then this does not prove they are better individually, because they simply are not .

 

I was in a mish mash group the other night that completely dominated a pub Pre-Made group from start to finish. Not even the Pub Pre-Made had any answers as to how they had there butts handed to them by a mish mash group, but it sure was nice to put them in their place and humble them once and for all as they had been dominating most of the evening, with all their "HEALS", but on this occasion they could of had 4 heals and still lost. So although the Pre-Mades are an annoyance sometimes, ultimately they are no better individually, and they know this, that is why they have the need to be in hand made groups because they are obviously unable to solo pvp to any high level, are looking to crush mish mash groups, which they do most of the time and this really lets them think that they are better. However, sometimes they will not have there Pre-Made groups then you see how weak they actually are, and they also know that .

 

The only true dominate Pre-Made group guild out there is Infinite Darkness, WOOPS and Physics, they really do know there stuff, and are pretty much unbeatable in anything when they are grouped up, especially Infinite Darkness who will go for complete wins ruthlessly, but does this make them superior pvpers individually?.

Once again, this is a false assumption. You will -rarely- isolate someone from their team, it's what they're trained to -not- let happen. On the rare chance you think you've isolated one of them, they're not actually fighting back, because this is a team game.

If they are at a critical location and alone, they aren't focused on killing you, they are stalling you while keeping as much HP as possible while help comes. They can not risk going in an all out dps race with you, only to have one of your buddies hit them with 10% hp left even if they did kill you.

If they're not in a critical location, they're moving to one. Once again they will stall/try and survive until they can get to help, or if it's an option, simply let you kill them so they can respawn back to the critical location. Warzones are a -horrible- measure of personal 1 vs 1 skill.

That being said, you are correct that some premades out there suck, and will get their asses handed to them by a PuG. Being in a Premade doesn't make a good player, It's just that most good players make premades.

(And to state my position again, a combination of matchmaking on a specific criteria, cross server queue's, and people taking personal responsibility for improving their experience will solve most if not all of the problems here.)

Perhaps it would, I don't know but the system as it is now simply is not working. I got hit with a crushing darkness the other night on my BM geared sage.

8k a tick. That's typical of the experience people get against a rated team in a regular pug wz.

I'm guessing he was min maxed and caught me with a crit but still. That alone tells me the gear gap needs to be addressed

 

without at least a chance to win new players are not going to keep playing. and frankly you gain nothing in the way of skill by being constantly curb stomped.

also I fixed your typos

Bull****.

I think the system is fine overall.

I play in a hardcore PvP guild and queue up with 4-man pre-made all the time.

On the one hand...

It's good to play against Imperial pre-mades and have a tough fight with a real challenge, sometimes we lose, sometimes we win. That's life. When I queue with 4-man premade this is what happens most of the time actually, i.e. we're usually fighting other pre-mades with only a random PUG here and there to fill up the ranks.

On the other hand...

Every now and then it's also fun to play against complete Imperial Recruit PUG teams. Run up to 3 recruits at a turret, Force Leap, Awe everyone, Pacify and kill first guy with default rotation while other 2 can do nothing, pop Zen, kill 2nd one with Precision Slash, Blade Storm and Blade Rush spam, pop Guarded by the Force + Medpac and finish 3rd with whatever I have left. - It's just fun, what can I say Simply good times with my guildmates and on my Combat Sentinel!

I think the system is fine overall.

 

I play in a hardcore PvP guild and queue up with 4-man pre-made all the time.

 

On the one hand...

It's good to play against Imperial pre-mades and have a tough fight with a real challenge, sometimes we lose, sometimes we win. That's life. When I queue with 4-man premade this is what happens most of the time actually, i.e. we're usually fighting other pre-mades with only a random PUG here and there to fill up the ranks.

 

On the other hand...

Every now and then it's also fun to play against complete Imperial Recruit PUG teams. Run up to 3 recruits at a turret, Force Leap, Awe everyone, Pacify and kill first guy with default rotation while other 2 can do nothing, pop Zen, kill 2nd one with Precision Slash, Blade Storm and Blade Rush spam, pop Guarded by the Force + Medpac and finish 3rd with whatever I have left. - It's just fun, what can I say Simply good times with my guildmates and on my Combat Sentinel!

A true test of skill indeed.

At least 1 said true reason why premades do PuGs - they love to feel theirself gods :/

Why premades do pugs? You mean why they do regular warzones with guildies. I did some rateds Friday night and in the 10 games we got, only faced 4 teams as the rest were empty warzones which totally sucked. Waiting some time for a rated queue to pop can be bad enough but when you go 20+minutes of waiting only to not face a team is not fun.

Bull****.

I don't claim to know how it happened, but that's what happened. wish I had time to vid it but i was dead before I thought to capture it.