Don't care if I'm going to get flamed for this but I would just like to make one point here. In any professional sports league, there are restrictions on team size. This is to prevent the wealthy teams from "hoarding" the top players, because that is just bad for the sport in general.

To be clear, I have nothing against teams keeping a backup or two of a certain ROLES. Where it really gets troublesome is when teams have 3-4 backups in every single spot. What I mean by backup in certain roles: depending on your team, assume you will have 3 healers, 2 RDPS, 2 Melee DPS, 1 node guarder 2 tanks to have a full team with full flexibility. Yes, that's 10 core players, but you can interchange them as needed to vary your team comp. So you have a total of 5 roles. For each of these 5 roles, I see nothing terribly wrong with having 2 backups - but it's still not completely "fair" given that people have geared alts so they can change comp without having to swap out players but whatever I can deal with this.

I have not yet seen a team that violates this principle for EVERY class. But there are plenty of teams that are sitting on 3-4 very good ranged DPS, or 6 solid sentinels, 6 solid healers, 5 solid gunslingers, etc. It's your team to do as you wish, and players are free to play whereever they want. I just want everyone to acknowledge:

1) You are harming others' abilities to participate in ranked

2) You are discouraging players from wanting to play ranked

3) People interested in ranked will transfer off or unsub if they can't do ranked

3) Your alternates will eventually get discouraged and quit

4) In the long run you are only going to make ranked worse for everyone

There is nothing wrong with competition. But this isn't pure competition. It is an articificial barrier to entry, and that inherently makes the game less competitive.

And to all you naysayers who say guilds don't restrict people filling in for other teams...people aren't fungible. Also, how likely is a team going to try to do ranked regularly if their chances hinge on finding a good player or two willing to sub in and play for them? You can't drop 1 or more players who have no experience playing with a certain team and expect that team to perform at a high level, UNLESS that team is already playing at a very high level, which again leads me to my point of artificial barrier to entry.

So what is my solution? Don't really have one. Wait for 4v4s? Unsub? /gkick excess people? Stop recruiting players from other guilds when you're already stacked at that class? If all you care about is winning, then you probably didn't even read this far, but in case you did, **** you.

That is all.

What's your solution

The most obvious would be teams exercising some discretion in recruitment. You've got 3 good smashers on your team. Another good smasher asks if he can join. You say, "Sorry we're full at that spot but I hear [x] and [y] need smashers."

The other would be, people not looking to join teams that don't need you nor will play you in their A-team UNLESS their core player is missing and EVEN THEN, will immediately kick you from group and sub in their core player once he logs in. But that would require a bit of courage and initiative rather than just wanting to chase "in-game prestige."

Unfortunately mind-control has not yet been invented so I'm just here to QQ.

Move to POT5. Problem solved.

I get 170ms on Bastion, 260ms on POT5. Not an option for me or any other players from APAC.

Also, I'm pretty sure there are only a total of about 100 ranked players on this server to begin with. Any single team holding 10-20% of the entire ranked population is well....yeah.

i think it's actually 1-2-3-4-5, not 1-2-3-3-4, fyi

^ proud of the fact that he just learned how to count to 5, which is 2 higher than he actually needs to measure his ****.

Non sequitors aside, you must be real popular at parties.

In any professional sports league, there are restrictions on team size. This is to prevent the wealthy teams from "hoarding" the top players, because that is just bad for the sport in general.

 

 

I guess Barcelona and Real Madrid did not get that memo.

the solution is easy but causes other problems.

Ranked teams have to have signed up rosters. Just like WOW arenas had (at least in season1 when i played)

a 5v5 ranked team could have a roster of 10 ppl. No more.

If you force ppl to register their teams and say limit team to 12 players then it would not allow teams/guilds to horde all the best players.

atm though i think the ranked scene is quite healthy. Lots of teams queing.

of the top of my head its

MVP

Don't Panic

Synergy

Breakfast

Tauntans

Test kitchens

Rock bottom

Elite

Crecendo

BOSS

Into the Darkness

Crits and giggles (although have not seen them in a couple weeks but that just might mean i have not been matched against them)

12 Teams. not bad actually.

In fact there were enough teams quing on Sat afternoon (friday night west coast time) that Synergy was not popping b/c the match making system was actually working!

What that means is the quing system was giving priority to us (Elite) and matching us up against Test kitchens and Breakfast instead of Synergy b/c their average rating is much higher then ours.

What do you know...the mach making system works as long as there are enough teams queing.

Every one of these teams has played ranked in the last week.

If you want to play ranked i suggest you get in contact with these guilds and get put on a trial and if you are good enough they will take you along and play you.

I get 170ms on Bastion, 260ms on POT5. Not an option for me or any other players from APAC.

 

Also, I'm pretty sure there are only a total of about 100 ranked players on this server to begin with. Any single team holding 10-20% of the entire ranked population is well....yeah.

Judging from my list above Elite its closer to 150 regular ranked players.

Which is an average of 12-13 ranked players per guild.

^ proud of the fact that he just learned how to count to 5, which is 2 higher than he actually needs to measure his ****.

 

Non sequitors aside, you must be real popular at parties.

who just trying to help a brotha out

I guess Barcelona and Real Madrid did not get that memo.

 

Barcelona and Madrid are limited to a squad size of 25 for the Champions League...and La Liga is a joke precisely because they are able to horde players and those two sides dominate all of the other teams.

The World Cup also has strict squad size restrictions, as does every single Olympic sport by event, the NBA, NFL, MLB, every single American NCAA sport for both men and women (across all divisions including the Ivy League), motorsports (FIA), even the Tour de France. Most of the world figured out that it is very harmful to competition if there are no restrictions on size (even in business there are anti-trust/monopoly regulations).

Don't care if I'm going to get flamed for this but I would just like to make one point here. In any professional sports league, there are restrictions on team size. This is to prevent the wealthy teams from "hoarding" the top players, because that is just bad for the sport in general.

Correction, it's the salary cap that prevents wealthy teams from hoarding top players. Yet top players will take pay cuts to be on the best team. Team size restriction has nothing to do with the skill set of teams, ffs it's a godamn rule of the sport in the first place.

I see nothing terribly wrong with having 2 backups - but it's still not completely "fair" given that people have geared alts so they can change comp without having to swap out players but whatever I can deal with this.

I didn't know more dedication to the game/sacrificing time to be more versatile made the game unfair for others, not that I'd care if that mean having more fun especially when I'm paying for a sub. This quote is hilarious. It's like telling Michael Jordan wasn't fair because he developed the fadeaway shot after hardwork and dedication. OH NO NOW HE CAN ACTUALLY MAKE 3s....that's unfair because you're only supposed to be able to drive to the basket! Well, now that I think of it...yeah it's not fair. Just like Lebron Jame's freakish body. Welcome to the league?

1) You are harming others' abilities to participate in ranked

2) You are discouraging players from wanting to play ranked

3) People interested in ranked will transfer off or unsub if they can't do ranked

3) Your alternates will eventually get discouraged and quit

4) In the long run you are only going to make ranked worse for everyone

1.The only thing preventing people's ability to participate in ranked is the will to learn and get better, everyone has to start somewhere.

2. Only thing discouraging players from wanting to play rank is synergy's triple scoundrel healer comp that relies on boring the team to a clumsy mistake to win after an hour only to have the game crash for both teams on 24th round of hypergate.

3. None of the top players/guilds have transferred off aside from those who want to play in a different time zone. I wouldn't worry when there's only negative comments about playing on pot5. High competition attracts transfers...if you played Wow and understood the difference in competition of battle groups you'd understand.

4. This applies to only yourself and your guild who refuse to ask how to get better or talk about what they can do better next time...or ask what is the other team doing differently that gives them the extra edge. So in other words...only applies to players/guilds who are ok with being remembered as losers/bad.

There is nothing wrong with competition. But this isn't pure competition. It is an articificial barrier to entry, and that inherently makes the game less competitive.

Answer me this....Who are you to define what competition is on this server? The only artificial barrier is the lack of skill that makes this game less competitive.

And to all you naysayers who say guilds don't restrict people filling in for other teams...people aren't fungible. Also, how likely is a team going to try to do ranked regularly if their chances hinge on finding a good player or two willing to sub in and play for them? You can't drop 1 or more players who have no experience playing with a certain team and expect that team to perform at a high level, UNLESS that team is already playing at a very high level, which again leads me to my point of artificial barrier to entry.

Weird, with 90% of Synergy's roster who have no previous mmo pvp experience..yet they managed to grab MVP's best tank as well is your server's best healer. For some reason, they also manage to grab dp/mvp alts as well. Should ask them considering they used to never win a game against mvp for months before transfers came.

I wonder if their refusal to quit/queue dodge against mvp/dp and talking post game with MVP players about what they could have done better has anything to do with it. As much as I hate synergy's new bore you to death comp, they will always have my respect for being the only team to not give up after months of losing constantly to us with a positive attitude to do better the next day....especially with all the players they've lost in the process.

So what is my solution? Don't really have one. Wait for 4v4s? Unsub? /gkick excess people? Stop recruiting players from other guilds when you're already stacked at that class? If all you care about is winning, then you probably didn't even read this far, but in case you did, **** you.

I don't know the solution to your problem, since I never cried on the forums about not being able to recruit decent players. But let me know how it goes and if any decent player understands your message in this thread and wants to join you now.

That is all

Correction, it's the salary cap that prevents wealthy teams from hoarding top players. Yet top players will take pay cuts to be on the best team. Team size restriction has nothing to do with the skill set of teams, ffs it's a godamn rule of the sport in the first place.

There is no salary cap in UEFA, Olympic Games, World Cup, NCAA sports. Your claims of "salary cap" are spurious at best. For instance, the MLB's "salary cap" is just a luxury tax on rich teams, who also must abide by the 40-player rule. NBA has a hard cap of 12 players on a roster for any game.

I didn't know more dedication to the game/sacrificing time to be more versatile made the game unfair for others, not that I'd care if that mean having more fun especially when I'm paying for a sub. This quote is hilarious. It's like telling Michael Jordan wasn't fair because he developed the fadeaway shot after hardwork and dedication. OH NO NOW HE CAN ACTUALLY MAKE 3s....that's unfair because you're only supposed to be able to drive to the basket! Well, now that I think of it...yeah it's not fair. Just like Lebron Jame's freakish body. Welcome to the league?

You really think I'm talking about the Michael Jordan's and the Lebron James'? And this is a horrible analogy given the NBA has a cap of 15 signed players and 12 players on a roster for a given game. And I don't think there's anything wrong with having alts? I was trying to say people should rely more on alts than just taking on extra players if possible.

1.The only thing preventing people's ability to participate in ranked is the will to learn and get better, everyone has to start somewhere.

2. Only thing discouraging players from wanting to play rank is synergy's triple scoundrel healer comp that relies on boring the team to a clumsy mistake to win after an hour only to have the game crash for both teams on 24th round of hypergate.

3. None of the top players/guilds have transferred off aside from those who want to play in a different time zone. I wouldn't worry when there's only negative comments about playing on pot5. High competition attracts transfers...if you played Wow and understood the difference in competition of battle groups you'd understand.

4. This applies to only yourself and your guild who refuse to ask how to get better or talk about what they can do better next time...or ask what is the other team doing differently that gives them the extra edge. So in other words...only applies to players/guilds who are ok with being remembered as losers/bad.

The "lesser" teams are trying to get better. They practice. They ask lots of questions. They practice a LOT. And every once in a while, as these teams get better, their best players get poached. Or their ONE tank takes a break, and they have to scramble to find a new one and rebuild. And once they rebuild, someone else gets poached. And they rebuild again. Don't even pretend like poaching doesn't/continue to happen, and these teams are forced to take a 2-4 week break to rebuild and try again, while the top teams just keep getting stronger and stronger.

Answer me this....Who are you to define what competition is on this server? The only artificial barrier is the lack of skill that makes this game less competitive.

Who am I? Someone with an opinion. And a brain. My opinion is that there are player-made barriers to entry take makes it harder for new teams to compete.

Weird, with 90% of Synergy's roster who have no previous mmo pvp experience..yet they managed to grab MVP's best tank as well is your server's best healer. For some reason, they also manage to grab dp/mvp alts as well. Should ask them considering they used to never win a game against mvp for months before transfers came.

 

I wonder if their refusal to quit/queue dodge against mvp/dp and talking post game with MVP players about what they could have done better has anything to do with it. As much as I hate synergy's new bore you to death comp, they will always have my respect for being the only team to not give up after months of losing constantly to us with a positive attitude to do better the next day....especially with all the players they've lost in the process.

That's one way to put it. Another theory is that they gobbled up the competition and got stronger through the acquisition of good players, which also further diluted the available talent pool while getting stronger? There's no right answer here, just one opinion versus another?

And there are other teams that have been "losing" to MVP for months. The only reason you don't see them consistently is because well, their players get poached, and/or they lose their one shadow or tank and can't find a replacement.

I don't know the solution to your problem, since I never cried on the forums about not being able to recruit decent players. But let me know how it goes and if any decent player understands your message in this thread and wants to join you now.

Yes, it's convenient to label this as "your problem." I believe it is a problem for many teams, especially teams trying to start from scratch. What was the last team you or anybody else saw that started from scratch on this server and had good luck? Not counting all the recent transfer teams. Hrm...

This is probably the worst thread you have ever made, and you have made some pretty stupid ones in the past. Are you trying to call out a certain guild or what?

I've never raged in game, never started crap in game, never talked **** in game (except for your mom jokes). So not sure exactly why you feel the need to judge my threads as stupid. I have opinions and I try to voice them from time to time, and I do so on the forums because I don't want it to be a distraction of in-game time when we're actually playing.

I'm not trying to call out a single certain guild - I see it as a problem for all ranked teams involved. I do think "your" guild could spare a few players to be honest, but so could several others. I'm talking about those days where a team just needs 1 more gunslinger, and a team has extra gunslingers available, but they would rather sit out than que against their guild. Or people saying, "I heard "x" team is looking for 1 more, but ew I'm not going to play with them" so "x" team ends up not queing. I'm also talking about those times you bring a new person into a ranked team and they immediately get kicked or people leave if they don't get kicked. Everytime I've seen that happen I've whispered them to apologize and offer words of encouragement, not that it does any good since I don't see them around much afterwards. It's sink or swim, and to be honest, we've had it easier when we were first forming our teams, and we're doing jack to make things easier for others. If you think that's OK, and that we have no moral or ethical obligation to try to help out, and would rather talk crap and laugh at them for being so bad, well then congratulations at being good at a game I guess?

But really, some of you guys have your heads so far up your **** you just don't see how *********** hard it is for some of us to get a team together. Do you not recall every single night we did kickball games against Synergy, you guys would be good to go within a minute or two, while it took me a good 15 minutes or more of literally begging people and offering free stims and grenades just to play a few games, and even though we would lose those games, we would keep trying. And some of those few people I managed to beg to do kickball with, they /gquit their guilds and joined you guys or some other top team, making it even harder to form random kickball teams. But yeah, view must be nice at the top.

I'm not trying to call out a single certain guild - I see it as a problem for all ranked teams involved. I do think "your" guild could spare a few players to be honest, but so could several others.

It is not the case that our guild and many other guilds have "extras" to spare. Most of the active teams (including synergy) often are 1 or 2 short to queue. We often pug a dps, or a healer, or whatever. A good example is that we have only one active GS on our team... I

Good Talk is recruiting solid DPS so we can queue for Ranked within the next couple of weeks. By solid DPS we mean DPS who know how and when to peel, CC, play the objective, break caps, and focus fire, and not DPS that AOE stat whore or tunnel vision their buff and ability bars.

Hit up Worldclass/Cosh, Jiraya, or Markzuckerberg(Playertwo) in game for more info.

Forgive me if this point has already been brought up, theres a LOT of text in this thread and I try to save my reading 'quota' for university related tasks.

I doubt it is solely a case of guilds hoarding players here. I feel what is more likely to be the case revolves around the idea that good players don't like loosing, and thus gravitate to established, "good" guilds full well knowing that they may not be a A-team member, but would simply rather hang around and hope they get picked up for some games rather than be part of a 'guild establishing/building' process.

Forgive me if this point has already been brought up, theres a LOT of text in this thread and I try to save my reading 'quota' for university related tasks.

 

I doubt it is solely a case of guilds hoarding players here. I feel what is more likely to be the case revolves around the idea that good players don't like loosing, and thus gravitate to established, "good" guilds full well knowing that they may not be a A-team member, but would simply rather hang around and hope they get picked up for some games rather than be part of a 'guild establishing/building' process.

Yes I agree with this entirely, and it is a human emotional response. That's why I think we need rules to control/govern these responses to achieve the most efficient outcome for all. But absent these rules, there's really nothing we can do and yeah it's frustrating trying to get a team together to do ranked under these conditions.

p.s. Sorry for wall of text, I wanted to articulate my point clearly and felt that deserved a bit more care.

Yes I agree with this entirely, and it is a human emotional response. That's why I think we need rules to control/govern these responses to achieve the most efficient outcome for all. But absent these rules, there's really nothing we can do and yeah it's frustrating trying to get a team together to do ranked under these conditions.

 

p.s. Sorry for wall of text, I wanted to articulate my point clearly and felt that deserved a bit more care.

How are you going to put rules around what is, as you say, a ' human emotional response'? We already know what is going to play out if this is somehow achieved too:

Good Pug Player: Hey, Gudarz, can I join MVP?

Gudarz: Nope

*Good Pug Player uninstalls*

(yes, i notice the irony in this)

How are you going to put rules around what is, as you say, a ' human emotional response'? We already know what is going to play out if this is somehow achieved too:

 

 

(yes, i notice the irony in this)

I don't think there is a solution, other than gentleman's agreements, which is why I was frustrated enough to make a long post out of this.

Good Talk is recruiting solid DPS so we can queue for Ranked within the next couple of weeks. By solid DPS we mean DPS who know how and when to peel, CC, play the objective, break caps, and focus fire, and not DPS that AOE stat whore or tunnel vision their buff and ability bars.

 

Hit up Worldclass/Cosh, Jiraya, or Markzuckerberg(Playertwo) in game for more info.

Really respect what you guys are doing here and will refer any decent players I come across your way (unless they happen to be a smasher or gunslinger)

I don't think there is a solution, other than gentleman's agreements, which is why I was frustrated enough to make a long post out of this.

I'm not really sure of the problem. You are essentially arguing the top guilds are hording the active ranked players.

Every active ranked team pugs spots regularly. (you'll see smackyo playing with dont panic on his sage or GS, last week teacher was playing his GS with dont panic, etc etc)

I dont think any team out there has too many good players or is "hording" everyone.

I'm not really sure of the problem. You are essentially arguing the top guilds are hording the active ranked players.

 

Every active ranked team pugs spots regularly. (you'll see smackyo playing with dont panic on his sage or GS, last week teacher was playing his GS with dont panic, etc etc)

 

I dont think any team out there has too many good players or is "hording" everyone.

Put it this way. You guys and the other top teams are able to que every single day with what appear to be very good team comps, and we and other teams have to stop queing if we lose one player, or can't que at all, and we have a hard time finding suitable subs (and we've reached down pretty deep). Maybe you guys just have an easier time finding replacements from other guilds, don't know. Maybe it's because the Smackyos and Teachers of the server are only willing to sub in for teams like Don't Panic. The obvious answer would be, "they don't like to lose." Fair enough. So it's like a downward spiral.

Put it this way. You guys and the other top teams are able to que every single day with what appear to be very good team comps, and we and other teams have to stop queing if we lose one player, or can't que at all, and we have a hard time finding suitable subs (and we've reached down pretty deep). Maybe you guys just have an easier time finding replacements from other guilds, don't know. Maybe it's because the Smackyos and Teachers of the server are only willing to sub in for teams like Don't Panic. The obvious answer would be, "they don't like to lose." Fair enough. So it's like a downward spiral.

I play with a lot of people from other guilds and have them all on my friends list.

We queued yesterday for the first time this week with our "starting line." For the last 4 nights in a row before that, we were missing either 1 or 2 of our main healers, and were missing our main gunslinger for 3? of those nights. We queued those 4 nights by picking up people from other guilds, and having some of our players jump onto different characters/alts.

I'm not sure where you are looking for players, but the last player who joined our starting lineup was unguilded and running regs with some of us for a few days before we recruited him.... there was no poaching from a "starting guild."

I play with a lot of people from other guilds and have them all on my friends list.

 

We queued yesterday for the first time this week with our "starting line." For the last 4 nights in a row before that, we were missing either 1 or 2 of our main healers, and were missing our main gunslinger for 3? of those nights. We queued those 4 nights by picking up people from other guilds, and having some of our players jump onto different characters/alts.

 

I'm not sure where you are looking for players, but the last player who joined our starting lineup was unguilded and running regs with some of us for a few days before we recruited him.... there was no poaching from a "starting guild."

I hear you, but you have to admit it's a lot easier for Synergy/MVP/DP et al to pick up good randoms than it is for other guilds.