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Best Build per Boss?


Tibbel's Avatar


Tibbel
12.09.2012 , 09:53 AM | #81
Quote: Originally Posted by Fedenip View Post
First, i must say It's funny like your 20% becomes 14% in one night =P
Yeah, I admit 20% was a bit high. I was just throwing out an estimate, which is why I wanted to go through and come up with a more realistic number.

Quote: Originally Posted by Fedenip View Post
I think you know the GCD in SWToR is 1.5sec, but, and there is a big "but", when you cast a spell, there isn't any GCD, so every cast with a cast under 1.5sec helps you to do more APM (action per minute) ==> "charged burst"/"snipe" is 1.44sec in 31/5/5 spec and "ambush" is 1.44sec too if you use it well in that 31/5/5 spec, and more during the "sniper volley", 1.29sec for the 1st and 1.29sec for the 2nd too.

And so when you use a "vital shot"/"corrosive dart" or a "explosive probe"/"sabotage charge" the GCD will be everytime 1.5sec

And with that time saved, you can use (if you have to recuperate your energy for the worst case) more "rifle shots" and so do more dps than if you use "corrosive dart"/"vital shot" or "explosive probe"/"sabotage charge" to spend your energy, mainly during the "sniper volley" for sure
It's true that abilities with activation times don't respect the 1.5s GCD, but that still doesn't necessarily help us gain any APM, mainly due to the importance of Followthrough and its 6-second cooldown.

During a common sequence:
1.5s [FT] + 2.88 [SoS] + 1.44 [Ambush or Snipe] = 5.82s
or with SV active:
1.5s [FT] + 2.58s [SoS] + 1.29s [Ambush or Snipe] = 5.37s
There's no time to do anything else during that fraction of a second before FT comes off CD. We could delay the next FT, but that almost always results in a loss of net DPS. Rifle Shot does so little damage compared to all our other abilities that it's just not worth it.

This is why alacrity is worth so little for MM snipers. It just doesn't help us very much compared to surge or accuracy.

Fedenip's Avatar


Fedenip
12.10.2012 , 06:11 AM | #82
Quote: Originally Posted by Tibbel View Post
This is why alacrity is worth so little for MM snipers. It just doesn't help us very much compared to surge or accuracy.

The debate is not between alacrity and surge/accuracy, i agree with you when you say accuray/surge is clearly better than alacrity in stats, but here we speak about the 2 points of talent : 4% alacrity or +10% on aoe damages and "sabotage charge"

And for bosses like the Writting horror where you have to aoe, why not (i prefer the 2/16/23 spec for him)
But the 10% for the "sabotage charge" is for me useless, yes it's a little bit better to use it than "snipe" when you have all CDs down and you don't have to use a "snipe" to do your next "followtrough" every 6sec, but the "corrosive dart"/"vital shot" is better than the "sabotage charge" (without if you want to do that spells more than one time per 15sec because it's a 15sec dot for sure, but with differents others CDs and our energy regeneration, it would be a wastage of dps)

And yes i agree we have to do sometimes this "corrosive dart", there is no debate on that but not for 20% of damages when we add the damages of "orbital strike" and "corrosive dart", and 14% is for me a little bit high too (even with the PvP set) if we use the CDs of "followtrough", "series of shot", "ambush" and "takedown" well and if we don't have infinite energy

And for the aim, we have to calculate the wastage of dps on this 9% (for me, ok i accept to up to 11% with the PvP set, but we can reread our debate on that and so we lose on our takedown), 14% (for you) yes, but we have to calculate the up for the others shot (86% or 89-91% of damages) too and so if it's gainful or not on one target

Quote: Originally Posted by Tibbel View Post
This costs a total of 2235 energy, leaving us with 299 more to spend. That's about enough to use CD or EP 15 times over those 6 minutes, or once every 24 seconds. If we use Snipe in those situations instead, we're doing less damage than we could be.
You can't use "corrosive dart" every 24sec, just because of others CDs, the 6 i spoke before (ambush, followtrough, series of shot, orbital strike, takedown and the armor debuff are priorities) you can't time that, you just do that when you're high in energy and you have all your CDs down, the debuff on the target, and when you don't have to do a "snipe" to have your FT every 6sec

And more, where is the armor debuff in your calculate? (on 6min, we have to do that 8 times for the less, and so 80 energies alone on the dummy) Or it's because you speak in operation condition with armor debuff of other guys? But in that conditions, on many bosses we can say many things on the OS whitch must have an immobile boss for a single target.

That is why, for every that reasons, 14% is to high
Akopra - Franc-tireuse - Battle Meditation
Fedenip - Avant-garde - Battle Meditation

paowee's Avatar


paowee
12.10.2012 , 03:33 PM | #83
Don't laugh

Quote:
NiM EC
Zorn and Toth: Lethality/Eng
Firebrand and Stormcaller: Lethality/Eng
Colonel Vorgath: Lethality/Eng
Warlord Kephess: Lethality/Eng (if on AoE little adds duty I play around with Full Engineering, if on Warrior duty I definitely go Marks)

HM TFB
Withering Horror: Lethality/Eng
Ciphas, Heirad, and KelíSara: Lethality/Eng
Operator IX: Lethality/Eng
Kephess the Undying: Lethality/Eng even on distortion duty
The Terror from Beyond: Lethality/Eng (i'm never on add duty)

Nightmare Pilgram: Lethality/Eng
Dreadtooth: Lethality/Eng
I am just more comfortable and personally do more DPS http://www.torparse.com/a/58891/time...047/1354169129 (after parsing for what can now be a total of many hours) as Lethality compared to Marks. If you do not encounter any energy problems target swapping and can optimally DPS down the adds and return to the boss (meaning killing the adds without putting down DoTs), I think Lethality works just fine.

More often than not I find myself being able to kill adds on Phase 1 of HM TFB as Lethality by:
1) DPSing on Tentacle: CG -> CD -> WB -> (1st) Cull
2) Add pops out (swap to add): SoS -> Ambush -> (Lazed Snipe/ EP / Takedown)
3) Retarget Tentacle: (2nd) Cull or Refresh Dots and continue with rotation.

This is how I normally deal with target swapping throughout HM EC / HM TFB and NiM EC. Stick to having my DoTs and Cull on my main target -> swap to add target and use SoS / Ambush / Snipe / EP / Takedown (this usually kills any add I am on duty on in current content) -> go back to main target and continue my Cull and then refresh DoTs.

This way I am able to keep to my rotation as much as I can:
Red = main target, Green = add target (swap)
Quote:
CG -> CD -> WB -> Cull -> SoS -> Ambush/EP/Lazed Snipe/Take Down -> Cull / Refresh DoTs
On NiM Warlord Kephess, Full Engineering if I am on AoE duty does massive AoE DPS.. Personally I can sustain 1800 single target as Full Engineering and this is fine for the current NiM content (with my current raid group). Just a change of pace as far as specs go
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Tibbel's Avatar


Tibbel
12.10.2012 , 04:58 PM | #84
Quote: Originally Posted by Fedenip View Post
The debate is not between alacrity and surge/accuracy, i agree with you when you say accuray/surge is clearly better than alacrity in stats, but here we speak about the 2 points of talent : 4% alacrity or +10% on aoe damages and "sabotage charge"
Right, but my point is that alacrity doesn't increase our APM noticeably unless we play sub-optimally. Alacrity's biggest contribution is when we use OS, and I doubt anyone will argue that OS benefits more from Deadly Directive than from Explosive Engineering.

Quote: Originally Posted by Fedenip View Post
And for bosses like the Writting horror where you have to aoe, why not (i prefer the 2/16/23 spec for him)
But the 10% for the "sabotage charge" is for me useless, yes it's a little bit better to use it than "snipe" when you have all CDs down and you don't have to use a "snipe" to do your next "followtrough" every 6sec, but the "corrosive dart"/"vital shot" is better than the "sabotage charge" (without if you want to do that spells more than one time per 15sec because it's a 15sec dot for sure, but with differents others CDs and our energy regeneration, it would be a wastage of dps)

And yes i agree we have to do sometimes this "corrosive dart", there is no debate on that but not for 20% of damages when we add the damages of "orbital strike" and "corrosive dart", and 14% is for me a little bit high too (even with the PvP set) if we use the CDs of "followtrough", "series of shot", "ambush" and "takedown" well and if we don't have infinite energy
My calculations were done without the PvP set bonus. If we add that, it jumps up over 15%.

We're talking single-target steady-state DPS (i.e. just like against a dummy). Obviously, none of the operation encounters provide this opportunity for the entirety of the fight, but during each fight we strive to position ourselves such that we spend as much time in this "ideal" state as possible, so it makes sense to use that as a baseline. If we want to consider situations in which we can't use OS or CD, we should also consider the situations in which we can't use SoS or Ambush or when it's actually optimal to use OS or CD. (One example is preparing for when Operator IX's damage immunity is about to fall off -- by prepping an EP, OS, and/or CD, we can actually pre-load some damage and energy expenditure.)

Quote: Originally Posted by Fedenip View Post
[And for the aim, we have to calculate the wastage of dps on this 9% (for me, ok i accept to up to 11% with the PvP set, but we can reread our debate on that and so we lose on our takedown), 14% (for you) yes, but we have to calculate the up for the others shot (86% or 89-91% of damages) too and so if it's gainful or not on one target
Yes, and the Sniper/Gunslinger Spreadsheet takes this all into account -- set bonuses, ability usage, stats, buffs, cooldowns, number of targets, etc -- and each time I try something, it shows cunning as significantly stronger than aim, point-for-point. If you think the existing math is incorrect, I'd love to see yours.

Quote: Originally Posted by Fedenip View Post
You can't use "corrosive dart" every 24sec, just because of others CDs, the 6 i spoke before (ambush, followtrough, series of shot, orbital strike, takedown and the armor debuff are priorities) you can't time that, you just do that when you're high in energy and you have all your CDs down, the debuff on the target, and when you don't have to do a "snipe" to have your FT every 6sec
Right, agreed. I don't think that we should count to 24 and then use CD throughout the fight. What I mean is that on average, we will be using CD once per 24 seconds of fight length. There will be times when we go 40+ seconds without using it, and other times when we want to dump energy so fast that CD will still be ticking on the target when we want to use it again and so we'll use EP instead.

Quote: Originally Posted by Fedenip View Post
And more, where is the armor debuff in your calculate? (on 6min, we have to do that 8 times for the less, and so 80 energies alone on the dummy) Or it's because you speak in operation condition with armor debuff of other guys?
Yes, the assumption is that in the group is at least one arsenal mercenary (i.e. gunnery commando) or juggernaut (guardian), who typically keep the armor debuff applied at maximum strength as part of their regular rotation. If keeping the debuff active is our responsibility, then we'll have to account for 10 less energy every 45s.



By the way -- thanks for this substantive discussion. It's good to have a solid exchange of ideas like this once in a while.

Fedenip's Avatar


Fedenip
12.10.2012 , 06:47 PM | #85
Quote: Originally Posted by Tibbel View Post
By the way -- thanks for this substantive discussion. It's good to have a solid exchange of ideas like this once in a while.
In every case the same, and sorry if i seem aggressive on some sentences, it's not the goal, but i don't speak so well in english, so sorry for that
I understand just now the "assumption" for example ^^ but for me the boss with monotarget like Kephess the Undying, the Writting Horror and the Dread Gards (in TfB) are the only bosses i use the 2/16/23 because i think it's better, and for the 2 first bosses of EC, there are 2 bosses and it's uncommon when you have one mercenary/commando/guardian/juggernaut on the 2 bosses and more, like i said, for Zorn, he removes his debuff (armor debuff and dot) when he shouts (but we can make the OS just before the jump of Toth on him to touch the 2 boss on 1 tick of OS) and if we are on Toth, i prefer the 2/16/23 (and in every case, we have to be careful to don't put the OS just before the jump on Zorn)
On the 2nd boss, here, it's perhaps the only where, if we play in MM/SS we don't have to be carefull for the boss movement, but if we do a dot just before the "defense system", when we are under the shield, the dot doesn't make many damages, but ok for this boss

For the Operator 9, Tfb (in TfB) and Vorgath, Kephess (EC), where i prefer the MM/SS spec, without the P2 of TfB where i love the "corrosive dart" to make on the tentacle before to be on it, i'm not sure it's so good, perhaps on the end of Kephess/Vorgath, cores of Operator 9, tentacles in P1 of TfB and probes of Vorgath, i don't think the "corrosive dart" is good for others things, because i think the force of the MM/SS is to burst many different mono target, and on that bosses, i don't think the tech damages on that spec will be 14% or more (without Kephess because we aoe trandos, and Vorgath where we can make the OS when the 2 fast soldiers come under the probe)

And so, to conclude, Gunslingers/Snipers are the best in every case hihi !
Akopra - Franc-tireuse - Battle Meditation
Fedenip - Avant-garde - Battle Meditation

djeezo's Avatar


djeezo
12.11.2012 , 10:39 PM | #86
think i just beat the record on kephess 3422 dps as sharpshooter/marksman

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlo...1#d=0,f=28,b=1


http://www.torparse.com/a/72049/27

Fedenip's Avatar


Fedenip
12.12.2012 , 06:00 AM | #87
Quote: Originally Posted by djeezo View Post
think i just beat the record on kephess 3422 dps as sharpshooter/marksman
Congrats and like NotRonin said, i hope Bioware doesn't look that ranking, if yes, we will be nerfed
Akopra - Franc-tireuse - Battle Meditation
Fedenip - Avant-garde - Battle Meditation

Fedenip's Avatar


Fedenip
12.12.2012 , 04:49 PM | #88
Quote: Originally Posted by djeezo View Post
think i just beat the record on kephess 3422 dps as sharpshooter/marksman
*speak like Gollum* i retake my precious this evening hihi

I did a try i little bit better than the last week on Kephess, 3k6 (and 1k9 donc the Dread Guards too, but i don't have the record on them snif snif )

http://www.torparse.com/a/72848
Akopra - Franc-tireuse - Battle Meditation
Fedenip - Avant-garde - Battle Meditation

CJNJ's Avatar


CJNJ
12.12.2012 , 06:33 PM | #89
Quote: Originally Posted by Fedenip View Post
*speak like Gollum* i retake my precious this evening hihi

I did a try i little bit better than the last week on Kephess, 3k6 (and 1k9 donc the Dread Guards too, but i don't have the record on them snif snif )

http://www.torparse.com/a/72848
Wish I could have a 47% crit chance! Yeah I know the dam dots. Awesome