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i fail to see the reason.


hyuganejji

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I have been playing Swtor since it came out and am a pretty big fan of the game, But something has been bothering me for a while now and i just cant understand why, no matter how much i think about it.

 

During the big 5.0 patch they changed some big things with the classes/adv classes and this one is by far the one that bugs me the most.

 

I'm having difficulties understanding their reasoning behind making Force Lightning, Crushing Darkness & Phase Walk, sorcerer exclusive. it makes little sense to me, these skills, at least to me, is among the reasons why the assassin was interesting and fun to play because those skills made a lot more versatile.. Now it just seem like a straight up hack n' slasher like the Marauder, i mean, if you wanted to take a fun adv class and make it so standard and bland you succeded... i just think it's sad :(:(

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force lighting i can sort of understand plus it's not like either dps spec used it outside of very fringe scenarios (or personal preference during solo play). crushing darkness is already more problematic but still, deception can live without it (and quite well at the moment though I fear we're getting bad news this week) and hatred has a replacement.

 

the Grand Theft Phasewalk, however, was a crime against all sentient beings in the galaxy the magnitude of which cannot be overstated despite me trying very hard to do so just now ;)

Edited by nyrkverse
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but dont you find that ridiculous at all? - i mean in the end it just seem like they always end up catering to casuals rather than their more devoted players..

Casuals take changes with a grain of salt. "Devoted" players react way too seriously about any changes in the game, which leada to threats about leaving and complaints that BW doesnt care about the game or the players, amd are trying to kill the game.

 

Casuals are more in numbers and definitely more relaxed.

 

Who would you try to please most? Someone who will like playing regardless, or a bipolar player who will love you when things go their way, amd hate you when things dont. I thunk the answer is obvious.

Edited by olagatonjedi
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The So called reason was most of are abilities are instant cast so they removed anything that had a casting time. Yet the refusal to make whirl wind instant fly's contrary to what the dev's say as usual, hark-in back when sin got its knock down with spike removed yet perfectly fine for jugs to throw you across screen and knock you on your *** hypocrisy at its best. As far as lightning goes it really was an under utilized ability that had no business in anyone's rotation and very rarely used save to maybe finish a person off. If you did use it you were seriously gimp your dmg potential that being said the removal of crushing darkness did hurt IMHO because it removed a DOT that could continue to cause damage if you ducked out of LOS when fighting snipers or the utility in uncloaking peeps that cloaked out to me it was much the same as Jugs bleed.
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Bioware, like Square Enix 2 console generations ago, are starting to cater primarily to casuals. It's as simple as that.

 

But its not catering to the causal ! What about this grind system for gear caters to the casual player base? If you are married have kids or work two jobs this system is like a 3rd job you'll spend 9 months maybe half that time if you also do PVE just to get a full set of gear only to have that be obsolete 3 months later.

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Casuals take changes with a grain of salt. "Devoted" players react way too seriously about any changes in the game, which leada to threats about leaving and complaints that BW doesnt care about the game or the players, amd are trying to kill the game.

 

Casuals are more in numbers and definitely more relaxed.

 

Who would you try to please most? Someone who will like playing regardless, or a bipolar player who will love you when things go their way, amd hate you when things dont. I thunk the answer is obvious.

 

Pretty over simplification you can be a casual player and still get pissed when they implement things that are just plain stupid like this gear grind for one! I'm sorry I like most causal players are paying for a game that is suppose to be fun and entertaining to be served up lame or regurgitated content does little to inspire me. Examples of lame content : Space sim it's so bad it gets beat out by the 1997 xwing vs tie fighter space sim a game mind you that is 20 years old it by far is more enjoyable then what we were given. Hell star wars galaxies space sim could run circles around this so called space sim.

Next, the crafting system which should be rename the Replicating of stock lame items system. In this system everyone who gets a schematic can reproduce well the exact same thing as everyone else who has the schematic. There's nothing unique you can't create cool looking stuff that people actually want to buy because it looks cool or has better stats nope your stuck reproducing the same UGLY crap as the next guys i'm sorry this is lame. This so called content is merely advertising gimmicks designed to poach other MMO players into trying the game.

Other examples of lame content the recent Iokath expansion open world pvp that lacks well open world PVP . Seriously it's a complete joke l have yet to see ANYONE in here for open world PVP. I think i've manage to kill two peeps who were there farming crafting materials! (Really you wasted money on creating this!)

Lastly and this is what urks me the most a completely unbalanced class system. I mean this doesn't even have a remote semblance of balance (it's like Bioware fails to grasp the whole trinity concept ) So maybe just maybe the reason people are getting irritated and are reacting like they are is they are fed up of seeing their hard earned cash being wasted on things they either didn't ask for (gear grind) or for things that were promised and yet to deliver! (The whole point of the utility system was because it was suppose to stream line the balancing of classes yet it seems to take far longer. )

Now your argument might hold some merit if people weren't paying for the product, but that's not the case for most of us especially for those of us that don't have any real interest in the PVE side of things just tend to focus on the PVP side we have a choice you either subscribe or don't play because there's really no point in doing the 5 missions you get for the WEEK at that point you just throw the towel and go look for a MMO worth your time.

Edited by Kazz_Devlin
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Pretty over simplification you can be a casual player and still get pissed when they implement things that are just plain stupid like this gear grind for one! I'm sorry I like most causal players are paying for a game that is suppose to be fun and entertaining to be served up lame or regurgitated content does little to inspire me. Examples of lame content : Space sim it's so bad it gets beat out by the 1997 xwing vs tie fighter space sim a game mind you that is 20 years old it by far is more enjoyable then what we were given. Hell star wars galaxies space sim could run circles around this so called space sim.

Your opinion.

 

Next, the crafting system which should be rename the Replicating of stock lame items system. In this system everyone who gets a schematic can reproduce well the exact same thing as everyone else who has the schematic. There's nothing unique you can't create cool looking stuff that people actually want to buy because it looks cool or has better stats nope your stuck reproducing the same UGLY crap as the next guys i'm sorry this is lame. This so called content is merely advertising gimmicks designed to poach other MMO players into trying the game. [/Quote]

Again, your opinion. What is fact is that if they dont make a standard crafting system for equal chance to make the gear, it can create an imbalance, which causes more problems. As for decorative crafting, perhaps they dont see enough people really interested in that part of the game, per metrics. So while those changes might be something you would like to see, perhaps you are the minority.

 

Other examples of lame content the recent Iokath expansion open world pvp that lacks well open world PVP . Seriously it's a complete joke l have yet to see ANYONE in here for open world PVP. I think i've manage to kill two peeps who were there farming crafting materials! (Really you wasted money on creating this!) [/Quote]

People asked for open world PvP, and BW gave it. If people wanted it so badly, they should be there. Obviously it wasnt wanted as badly as advertised by the playerbase, or it would be thriving. BW has never made SWTOR about forcing people to participate in open world pvp, so why would you expect it to change now. This issue you present is player created, not BW created. They provided, the players just choose not to participate en masse.

 

Lastly and this is what urks me the most a completely unbalanced class system. I mean this doesn't even have a remote semblance of balance (it's like Bioware fails to grasp the whole trinity concept ) So maybe just maybe the reason people are getting irritated and are reacting like they are is they are fed up of seeing their hard earned cash being wasted on things they either didn't ask for (gear grind) or for things that were promised and yet to deliver! (The whole point of the utility system was because it was suppose to stream line the balancing of classes yet it seems to take far longer. )[/Quote]

It appears to me they are actively trying to re-balance classes.

Edited by olagatonjedi
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What a lot of people do is confuse the derogatory term, Casual, with Casually playing.

 

Anybody who posts on the forums has gone further than the majority of players - it's easy to think the forums show an active representation of the playing demographic but consider a game that has 1 million players. If each of those players post just once a week, you'd be looking at the forums enjoying 500 thread posts popping up almost 3'000 times a day! But that doesn't happen, because the forums are not the way your common player plays the game.

 

Forums are a resource to better understand your class, or to find out additional information about the game. When people spout on about casuals, they are usually referring to the average player who does not visit these forums. But what you will then find are players who claim "they are casuals" because they no longer play as many hours as they used to. These players, who still visit the forum, are essentially fooling themselves into believing they NOW represent the majority of players and can empathise with them. This is a common fallacy.

 

Making forum users happy is pointless, because they are such a small minority of the game's actual player base, and would be akin to Coca Cola changing their recipe based entirely on what they are told by only people with 1 million or more followers on Twitter. Such a small percentage of players dictating the game for the rest would be utter madness and most likely lead to the actual players leaving, not just the loud, noisy ones who frequent forums.

 

Still, it's easy to believe "nerfs are unfair" or "my class needs such as such to be fair" when your viewpoint is so narrow and short-sighted. Every forum user has gone further than the average player in terms of playing the game, and need to understand that they are in the minority when it comes to seeing others share their opinion, not the majority. (This is why people see 10 others on forums agree with their post about a change, and then cry out Bioware are mad for not believing EVERYBODY wants the change. 10 people, 100 people even 1000 people are NOT a majority of people agreeing with you!)

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Pretty over simplification you can be a casual player and still get pissed when they implement things that are just plain stupid like this gear grind for one! I'm sorry I like most causal players are paying for a game that is suppose to be fun and entertaining to be served up lame or regurgitated content does little to inspire me. Examples of lame content : Space sim it's so bad it gets beat out by the 1997 xwing vs tie fighter space sim a game mind you that is 20 years old it by far is more enjoyable then what we were given. Hell star wars galaxies space sim could run circles around this so called space sim.

Next, the crafting system which should be rename the Replicating of stock lame items system. In this system everyone who gets a schematic can reproduce well the exact same thing as everyone else who has the schematic. There's nothing unique you can't create cool looking stuff that people actually want to buy because it looks cool or has better stats nope your stuck reproducing the same UGLY crap as the next guys i'm sorry this is lame. This so called content is merely advertising gimmicks designed to poach other MMO players into trying the game.

Other examples of lame content the recent Iokath expansion open world pvp that lacks well open world PVP . Seriously it's a complete joke l have yet to see ANYONE in here for open world PVP. I think i've manage to kill two peeps who were there farming crafting materials! (Really you wasted money on creating this!)

Lastly and this is what urks me the most a completely unbalanced class system. I mean this doesn't even have a remote semblance of balance (it's like Bioware fails to grasp the whole trinity concept ) So maybe just maybe the reason people are getting irritated and are reacting like they are is they are fed up of seeing their hard earned cash being wasted on things they either didn't ask for (gear grind) or for things that were promised and yet to deliver! (The whole point of the utility system was because it was suppose to stream line the balancing of classes yet it seems to take far longer. )

Now your argument might hold some merit if people weren't paying for the product, but that's not the case for most of us especially for those of us that don't have any real interest in the PVE side of things just tend to focus on the PVP side we have a choice you either subscribe or don't play because there's really no point in doing the 5 missions you get for the WEEK at that point you just throw the towel and go look for a MMO worth your time.

 

You proved his point with this post haha

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Well lets put things into perspective, I don't see the reason for this nerf, Shadow/Assassins probably have one of the worst survivabilities out of the all classes, and yet Bioware decides to degrade us even further by removing our DPS damage? Our stealth is easily broken if hit by a AOE bubble, and now we have to endure the pain that this class no longer has any value or merit to it.

 

Meanwhile commandos/mercs still have great survivability and are very hard to kill and can deliver quite the DPS blow.

 

sniper's/gunslingers are prone to damage and can literally dash out of harms way at any time, making it difficult for melee classes to range in on them.

 

Healers are also hard to kill one on one.

 

Guardians/Juggs can survive just about anything, even the tanks can deliver quite the dps blow

Edited by RaithHarth
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Healers are also hard to kill one on one.

 

Guardians/Juggs can survive just about anything, even the tanks can deliver quite the dps blow

 

I know next to nothing about shadows so I'm not going to comment there.

 

Mercs and snipers still have godly survivability because of the whole "we're not messing with utilities yet" thing. They did nerf the damage and based on my experience in PvP since the nerf it is noticeable. Yes the high survivability and dodge on snipers is particularly annoying to melee. If their primary means if defense was avoiding damage I wouldn't mine. But a merc can face tank for quite a while.

 

Also if a healer couldn't heal himself through 1 reasonable person wailing on him, what exactly would be the point if being a healer?

 

Now dps guardians have awesome survivability? Do you play a dps guardian? Because I did. And it was miserable. Focused first every time. Swapped to skanking much less annoying. Does skanking do to much damage? Arguably so. But so long as dps guardians get squashed in seconds like a bug and my tank gear doesn't help me, skanking is the best way for my guardian to contribute to my team.

Edited by KendraP
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Well lets put things into perspective, I don't see the reason for this nerf, Shadow/Assassins probably have one of the worst survivabilities out of the all classes, and yet Bioware decides to degrade us even further by removing our DPS damage? Our stealth is easily broken if hit by a AOE bubble, and now we have to endure the pain that this class no longer has any value or merit to it.

 

Meanwhile commandos/mercs still have great survivability and are very hard to kill and can deliver quite the DPS blow.

 

sniper's/gunslingers are prone to damage and can literally dash out of harms way at any time, making it difficult for melee classes to range in on them.

 

Healers are also hard to kill one on one.

 

Guardians/Juggs can survive just about anything, even the tanks can deliver quite the dps blow

 

Well, it really depends honestly. As for Sniper/Merc, their reasoning for utilities being the last balance is wrong (it messed up merc healers numbers by a lot sadly). The dps nerf wouldn't be needed if they were correctly balanced in terms of damage taken. Again, I find it very strange that we've gone through 1.0 to 5.0 without any change to Arsenal burst potential. Same for sniper and marauder, everybody was fine when they were powerfull but squishy. But now, they must be weaker and more resistant ? It is quite strange, and we still don't have any form of justification as to why change this. :rak_02:

 

As for healers, don't worry it is normal that you cannot kill a healer by yourself. Any decent healers know how to resist to one dude. It has become more difficult for some class like sorcerer due to badly handled nerf, but it is still possible.

 

Honestly, Sins and Shadow where on the middle batch, along with dps Operative and good sorcerer/jugg for both damage taken and damage done.

 

Powertech is by far the worst in terms of damage taken, sorc and jugg are just a bit above it, but not far.

 

In terms of damage dealt and taken, Merc, snipers and marauders are on top for now due to the broken utility they got. Remove those specific utility and they go back to the middle of the batch along with the others.

 

With the upcoming nerfs, we'll see some change though. Sin will actually go down a lot due to the big nerf to their burst and overall damage. The main issue being that their toughness was somewhat due to their rapid damage, forcing opponents to use defensive ability, now with this gone they lose their main attribute. I expect them to go somewhere along dps jugg and powertech based on some personal calculations. Honestly, I would have been fine with Phasewalk (I still don't know why they removed it, it isn't exactly a spammable ability like Force Speed). Jugg will also go down a bit (for Vengeance, not so sure about Rage. I think the alacrity trick could also work for them and do wonder). Sorc will also get dragged down a little (dps nerf, huge deal for lightning). The same could apply to Operative, their sustained heal being reduced by a lot.

 

Overall, the next month doesn't seem good for the non-FOTM class. And I must say that I'm quite afraid of those utility changes. For now, feedback and clear discussion hasn't been their strong point, I'm expecting some screw up to this as well if they don't take the time to discuss it with actual players. :rolleyes:

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I know next to nothing about shadows so I'm not going to comment there.

 

Mercs and snipers still have godly survivability because of the whole "we're not messing with utilities yet" thing. They did nerf the damage and based on my experience in PvP since the nerf it is noticeable. Yes the high survivability and dodge on snipers is particularly annoying to melee. If their primary means if defense was avoiding damage I wouldn't mine. But a merc can face tank for quite a while.

 

Also if a healer couldn't heal himself through 1 reasonable person wailing on him, what exactly would be the point if being a healer?

 

Now dps guardians have awesome survivability? Do you play a dps guardian? Because I did. And it was miserable. Focused first every time. Swapped to skanking much less annoying. Does skanking do to much damage? Arguably so. But so long as dps guardians get squashed in seconds like a bug and my tank gear doesn't help me, skanking is the best way for my guardian to contribute to my team.

Mercs dont really have godly survivability unless you give them their health by being a newb and attacking them (with direct single damage attacks) while they have their dcd active. Their survivability scales up dramatically based on how bad their opponent is.

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Mercs dont really have godly survivability unless you give them their health by being a newb and attacking them (with direct single damage attacks) while they have their dcd active. Their survivability scales up dramatically based on how bad their opponent is.

 

This works for their reflect ability, indeed you can bypass it with a dot or aoe. It shouldn't be removed imo because it's a skill-based dcd.

As for trauma regulator and kolto surge, this doesn't apply. Trauma regulator will build stack anyway, whatever the type of damage is. Kolto Surge heals you to 70%, whatever damage you receive, except if you have 8players hitting you as hard as they can. This isn't a skill-based ability. It allows its user to freecast during an insane amount of time and is the problem with merc for now, resolve bar doesn't help that much, you will be able to burn one defensive and half, at best (because yeah, standing without attacking a guy that can kick your *ss isn't a smart move ;) ), leaving you with another full life to deal with.

 

Again, you shouldn't have to be one of the best player around to be able to burn through every defensive ability of a «common» merc. ^^

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This works for their reflect ability, indeed you can bypass it with a dot or aoe. It shouldn't be removed imo because it's a skill-based dcd.

As for trauma regulator and kolto surge, this doesn't apply. Trauma regulator will build stack anyway, whatever the type of damage is. Kolto Surge heals you to 70%, whatever damage you receive, except if you have 8players hitting you as hard as they can. This isn't a skill-based ability. It allows its user to freecast during an insane amount of time and is the problem with merc for now, resolve bar doesn't help that much, you will be able to burn one defensive and half, at best (because yeah, standing without attacking a guy that can kick your *ss isn't a smart move ;) ), leaving you with another full life to deal with.

 

Again, you shouldn't have to be one of the best player around to be able to burn through every defensive ability of a «common» merc. ^^

If a merc is low enough health to need to use trauma regulators or the reflect skill, and players use skill and dont attack, then the merc receives little to no heals from those skills, and will be forced to either heal themselves (therefore do no damage output and build up their hrat fast), OR use kolto overload WITH one of those skills and therefore waste one of them and only heal up to 70%, leaving them with no more dcds.

 

The opponents dictate how well those skills work. Same thing with many other skills that other classes have, like using CC on a sin with shroud up or a sniper with entrench up, etc.

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If a merc is low enough health to need to use trauma regulators or the reflect skill, and players use skill and dont attack, then the merc receives little to no heals from those skills, and will be forced to either heal themselves (therefore do no damage output and build up their hrat fast), OR use kolto overload WITH one of those skills and therefore waste one of them and only heal up to 70%, leaving them with no more dcds.

 

The opponents dictate how well those skills work. Same thing with many other skills that other classes have, like using CC on a sin with shroud up or a sniper with entrench up, etc.

 

I perfectly now how to dodge those defensive, the problem is more that you cannot stand blindly in front of a merc with his defensive up, waiting for them do disappear. Just for Energy Shield, you'll need at least a low slash and a whirlwind (full resolve bar, can be broken both by the merc or a teammate). A recommended option would be to use LoS, really difficult to do most of the time due to a net that cannot be shielded, endless slow...

The problem isn't not attacking him, it's «not being attacked». Standing in front of an opponent while not attacking has never been the smartest move ^^

Edited by supertimtaf
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As for trauma regulator and kolto surge, this doesn't apply. Trauma regulator will build stack anyway, whatever the type of damage is.

 

No, it won't. Trauma regs only build stacks on direct damage, dots and aoe won't build stacks. That's the reason why I almost never take trauma regs in pve, because you rarley build any stacks since most raidwide damage is aoe/dots.

What aoe/dots will do, is reducing the cooldown of energy shield (if the utility is taken), but they don't build stacks.

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No, it won't. Trauma regs only build stacks on direct damage, dots and aoe won't build stacks. That's the reason why I almost never take trauma regs in pve, because you rarley build any stacks since most raidwide damage is aoe/dots.

What aoe/dots will do, is reducing the cooldown of energy shield (if the utility is taken), but they don't build stacks.

 

As for dot, I will believe you, however, I've seen multiples times stack build whenever I was hit by a shadow's lacerate, or a sniper's orbital strike... Although, it may be only for the initial hit (or for any specific proc like Ataru Strike)... I'll test this out ! :rak_02:

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As for dot, I will believe you, however, I've seen multiples times stack build whenever I was hit by a shadow's lacerate, or a sniper's orbital strike... Although, it may be only for the initial hit (or for any specific proc like Ataru Strike)... I'll test this out ! :rak_02:

 

If the lacerate comes from a deception sin, then surging-charge will trigger trauma regs if it procs. For the same reason you sometimes get a "reflected" when lacerating a merc with his reflect up. Also, some dots like crushing darkness or the vengeance dots have an initial hit that will be reflected/trigger trauma regs, but the actual dot won't.

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If the lacerate comes from a deception sin, then surging-charge will trigger trauma regs if it procs. For the same reason you sometimes get a "reflected" when lacerating a merc with his reflect up.

 

Well this is dumb, and don't really make things easier for us. It also explain why sweeping slash generates stack on a merc due to Ataru Form. :rak_02:

And yeah, I just saw it for Demolish and Shatter, the initial hit does trigger the stack (which is normal, the ability are made this way, with an initial hit followed by an actual dot if the attack reach its target).

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If a merc is low enough health to need to use trauma regulators or the reflect skill, and players use skill and dont attack, then the merc receives little to no heals from those skills, and will be forced to either heal themselves (therefore do no damage output and build up their hrat fast), OR use kolto overload WITH one of those skills and therefore waste one of them and only heal up to 70%, leaving them with no more dcds.

 

The opponents dictate how well those skills work. Same thing with many other skills that other classes have, like using CC on a sin with shroud up or a sniper with entrench up, etc.

 

The problem with this is that the merc - if he is any good - will pop Energy Shield proactively when whitebarred, or has a breaker up. If you aren't able to cc him, he will be freecasting while you can't hit him without healing him. If you try to burst through it, he will click the buff off for the instaheals. It's also very difficult - at least in most 8v8's , given latency, channels, and all - to ensure no-one hits a merc when reflect is popped. Even with the damage nerfs to merc, many classes will have trouble eating freecast damage while doing little damage of your own. And even then, the merc still has a heal-to-70%. That's more defensives than some tank classes.

Edited by Sabachthanus
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The problem with this is that the merc - if he is any good - will pop Energy Shield proactively when whitebarred, or has a breaker up. If you aren't able to cc him, he will be freecasting while you can't hit him without healing him. If you try to burst through it, he will click the buff off for the instaheals. It's also very difficult - at least in most 8v8's , given latency, channels, and all - to ensure no-one hits a merc when reflect is popped. Even with the damage nerfs to merc, many classes will have trouble eating freecast damage while doing little damage of your own. And even then, the merc still has a heal-to-70%. That's more defensives than some tank classes.

You cant control what anyone else on your team does anyways, so its part of the mechanics tgat needs to be followed. No different than a trammate not attacking someone capping a node, using a non aoe attack around cc'd players, etc. At some point BW has to leave it in the players hands - more specifically - all the players hands.

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I have been playing Swtor since it came out and am a pretty big fan of the game, But something has been bothering me for a while now and i just cant understand why, no matter how much i think about it.

 

During the big 5.0 patch they changed some big things with the classes/adv classes and this one is by far the one that bugs me the most.

 

I'm having difficulties understanding their reasoning behind making Force Lightning, Crushing Darkness & Phase Walk, sorcerer exclusive. it makes little sense to me, these skills, at least to me, is among the reasons why the assassin was interesting and fun to play because those skills made a lot more versatile.. Now it just seem like a straight up hack n' slasher like the Marauder, i mean, if you wanted to take a fun adv class and make it so standard and bland you succeded... i just think it's sad :(:(

 

What they are doing is clearly defining the role and feel of each class. Not to mention making the class more palatable from a logical perspective.

 

Shadow is supposed to be a sneaky guy that uses fast hard hits to take out the enemy. Why the hell is he standing there for 3 seconds casting? It makes no sense.

 

There are some exceptions like Force lift which can't be instant due to balance issues or thematic abilities like cascading debris.

 

With the Last Jedi coming out in 2 months they are trying to balance the classes and merge the servers so when they get an influx of new people they can retain some of them.

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