If the tank automatically puts the guard on the healer even though there are high end geared marauders/sentinels in the group in tier 1 HM FPs s/he is a bad tank. If the tank refuses to give the guard to the said marauder/sentinel even after politely explained there's no need to guard healers in tier 1 HMs and guarding the highest dps(usually mara/sent) makes the FP go faster and easier for everyone the tank is also a dumb one.

 

I can't even remember when I would have gotten the guard in a PuG HM FP group without asking it first even though I do Daily HMs in PuG almost daily basis. The tank that made me finally to put this little rant online was something pretty awful too: he was not able to use his 23,5k hp jugg tank to keep aggro off from a 19k hp merc healer in Black Talon HM even with the guard on the healer...

TBH at the start of a fp I will put the guard on the healer as well, as soon as I see which dps creates more aggro I will give it to him (except he's a really dumb one, who targets the wrong mobs etc.)

As an assassin tank, I generally put the guard on a healer. Might as well put the guard on a healer if no one is going to pull threat, which should be the case if you are an assassin. Assassin tanks generate the most threat by a large amount.

 

Pretty much, I put the guard on whomever I think needs the most amount of damage reduction. That is usually the healer, because we want them to take the least amount of damage as possible, so they don't have to heal themselves as much. If for some reason someone is pulling threat off of me, I'll switch a guard to them. But that should not happen.

Edited March 15, 2013 by bbare

As an assassin tank, I generally put the guard on a healer. Might as well put the guard on a healer if no one is going to pull threat, which should be the case if you are an assassin. They generate the most threat by a large amount.

 

Pretty much, I put the guard on whomever I think needs the most amount of damage reduction. That is usually the healer, because we want them to take the least amount of damage as possible, so they don't have to heal themselves as much. If for some reason someone is pulling threat off of me, I'll switch a guard to them. But that should not happen.

 

well said.

 

and players wonder with such posts like those from the op why so many tanks queue up in the lfd with their own dps and healers.

As an assassin tank, I generally put the guard on a healer. Might as well put the guard on a healer if no one is going to pull threat, which should be the case if you are an assassin. They generate the most threat by a large amount.

 

Pretty much, I put the guard on whomever I think needs the most amount of damage reduction. That is usually the healer, because we want them to take the least amount of damage as possible, so they don't have to heal themselves as much. If for some reason someone is pulling threat off of me, I'll switch a guard to them. But that should not happen.

 

This.

If I could, I'd guard myself...Tanking with an Assassin/Shadow is just so easy aggro-wise...

And the poor juggernauts guard the dps, if I could, I'd guard everyone of them and jump between them so they loose the aggro.

And the poor juggernauts guard the dps, if I could, I'd guard everyone of them and jump between them so they loose the aggro.

 

Juggs in 2.0 are going to be aggro machines. They did a good job fixing that. Assassins probably will remain the best for aggro, but Juggs are going to be competitive. I'm not sure about powertechs, but they seem pretty good too. I was running the now obsolete overpowered AP/Pyro spec in operations and our Jugg tank could still hold threat without me even being guarded. I did have to use my new threat drop, though. But its there for that reason.

Edited March 15, 2013 by bbare

Unless there is a big gear disparity, I guard whomever has the hardest time keeping their aggro down. Vanguards don't get an aggro reducer, so they are top priority. Guardians do get one, but it is crazy expensive, resource wise, so they are number 2. I've heard Sages can be buggy, so they are third. Smugglers (both ACs), Shadows and Commandos are next, followed lastly by Sentinels because their camo is such an awesome threat dropper.

Generally speaking, guarding the healers on trash is a better idea if the mob sizes are big and you don't have a ton of AoE DPS/Tank moves like as you would a mercenary, sorc or sin tank. They are going to get agro regardless as their agro table is steady for all enemies in the area, but it makes tearing it back off them easier. Always guard highest DPS for boss fights however as the ability to tear off of you is pretty large if they are left unguarded.

 

Why this logic isn't followed by everyone or at least most is beyond me.

Edited March 15, 2013 by mastirkal

Juggs in 2.0 are going to be aggro machines. They did a good job fixing that.

 

Yes, I know and I love them for doing that

being or not a bad tank has nothing to do with if he puts guard or not, on healers or dps, i run FPs and Ops and sometimes no one gets the guard and we do just fine,no wipes, hell my raid group does EC NiM wihout guards

knowing if he is a good tank or a bad one is to see how we controls the mobs(especially the runaways) and boss

nothing to do with guards

Edited March 15, 2013 by ErosGyne

By default I guard the healer because they are generally the squishiest and doing their job properly generates a lot of threat. If I find a DPS pulling agro I switch guard. 'nuff said.

it's not such a problem to change guard while running..if i see someone getting beaten i put it on him..someone would call me a noob, but if you leap on someone and place the guard on him i found he has a lot more survavibility..then healer first to adjust things and if a dps is a pain i guard him..

and rememer that some fight has mobs going specifically on healers

I love it how no one here agrees with OP

 

Guard in FPs go on healers, sir. Roll a tank and play with decent dps (as in people that know what they are doing; that doesn't necessarily mean people with good gear or good damage output) and you will know why.

I run a hybrid tank when I tank and hold agro very well on my Jugg.

I will guard a healer always at the start...

Someone's gear does not dictate their play ability and skill with an AC.

How about you use the agro dump you have?

 

Tanks and healers are the 2 hardest roles in this game period.

 

You know what I hate? A dps pulling first/not using an agro dump then crying about guarding him.

 

The tanks role is to pull first, control the mob, and protect the GROUP as a whole. If the tank is not doing that.

1) bad tank

2) he is not able to do it because the group is not functioning as it should.

I normally don't guard anybody until after the first pull. Someone overtakes me and I guard that guy. But Marauders, in particular, are not necessarily high DPS.

 

For one thing, because of their perception as "most OP," the absolute worst players in the game tend to play them. These people won't know rotations or do enough damage to draw threat.

 

For another, many marauders in GF are focus/rage spec now, which doesn't do a lot of single target comparatively, while tending to one shot the minor trash.

 

So no, I would not immediately guard a marauder unless I knew him or saw 63 armorings WITH the set bonus in his gear.

 

DPS Powertechs on the other hand? Those I'll guard before the first pull because even bad players can overtake you if you're not careful.

Edited March 15, 2013 by Larry_Dallas

the healer because they are generally the squishiest and doing their job properly generates a lot of threat

No, just no.

 

Healing does not generate a lot of threat. Healing generates very very low amount of threat.

 

The only thing special about healing threat is that it is divided among all of the mobs you are in combat with while dps and tanks generate threat only on those mobs that they do damage on.

 

With or without guard, the healer will ALWAYS have aggro on any and all mobs that nobody is doing any damage on.

 

With or without guard, the healer will NEVER have aggro on anything that somebody else is doing any damage at all on.

 

Apart from from few boss encounters where normal threat mechanics do not apply, the threat reduction from guard is completely useless if placed on a healer.

 

Even if it used for the damage reduction only, it is rarely the best option to guard healers, since melee dps are more likely going to suffer more damage in many fights.

I love it how no one here agrees with OP

 

Guard in FPs go on healers, sir. Roll a tank and play with decent dps (as in people that know what they are doing; that doesn't necessarily mean people with good gear or good damage output) and you will know why.

 

Don't Choke into your laugh...(Let's see if you get the meaning...choke you know...)

 

I play half 63-half61-fully augmented marauder and I just happened to notice during the last few months that be it a jugg tank, assassin or powertech, they all have big problems to keep aggro off me when I put up my full dps-numbers. With guard on me the HMs go much more fluently as the healer does not have to concentrate on healing me and the tank but mainly only the tank. I also happen to know rotations and kill orders so the healer does not need to heal himself/herself too much. There are many tanks around who still refuse to give me the guard and I sometimes ever get private whispers after the run from healers like "I wish he would have given you the guard...". When I don't get the guard even after polite explanation I just tune down my dps. The run takes longer but it was purely the tank's choice.

 

Healers don't need guard in tier 1 HMs if the tank knows how to keep aggro and the 2 dps know the kill orders. Of course there are people who aren't too good in MMOs, newcomers etc when guarding the healer and explaining things is a good thing but when the group is formed from skilled players who claim to know how to play their class putting guard on healer is waisting the guard which makes the healer's work more hard because s/he has to heal the tank and me.

A lot of you have never run with a good Sentinel or Marauder.

A lot of you have never run with a good Sentinel or Marauder.

 

And I'm a BiS 63s Sentinel. I don't need a guard if I'm doing my job right and using my threat dump on boss fights.

 

Guard should go on PT/Vanguard DPS first, bad DPS that can't manage aggro second, and overgeared third.

I main a shadow tank, but I also have a fully-geared Combat Sentinel (probably the worst spec in terms of agro whoring) and a fully geared Lightning Sorc (also pretty terrible). I know first hand the pain of facetanking content, even rolling my agro dump and being careful not to burst too fast.

 

With that said, I generally guard healers in flashpoints. A bad tank is not a tank who guards a healer. A bad tank is a tank who doesn't recover from his mistakes. Even the most l33t tank is going to lose agro now and again. When I go toe-to-toe with a really sharp, BiS-geared Focus Sentinel that I run with, I can reliably hold agro if I don't make any mistakes. However, if I make the *tiniest* timing error, it comes down to whether or not the sentinel crits on the second tick of Master Strike (and yes, it is that specific). When that happens, I will lose agro. Not because I'm a terrible tank, but because I made a very small error and RNG didn't cover for me.

 

The thing that separates me from a *bad* tank is I will instantaneously snap the target back by accelerating my taunt timing. Good tanks aren't perfect, they just know how to identify and fix problems without delay.

 

Obviously, if I guard the sentinel, agro becomes easy-mode and I don't have anything to worry about, but I would rather make my life a little easier w.r.t. AoE threat (especially with the insane volume of trash in FPs) than debuff the threat of just one of my two DPS.

Mhm, yeah, I always think it's funny when I go into a hm fp and the tank puts guard on the heal. Especially if the tank is undergeared. I tell 'em how guard is working and that there almost always no point in putting guard on a healer but sometimes the healer themselves complain saying they need guard lol. Well, I never insist or even ask for guard, if the tanks knows what he's doing he is gonna notice that I'm ripping aggro from him and since I'm a jugg I almost never use my aggro dump.

And I'm a BiS 63s Sentinel. I don't need a guard if I'm doing my job right and using my threat dump on boss fights.

 

Guard should go on PT/Vanguard DPS first, bad DPS that can't manage aggro second, and overgeared third.

 

I said "good," not "geared." I know many players who are geared well but are not good. Since I don't know you, and have not played with you, I'm not going to assume anything about your play.

 

Here's what I do know: In a mix of 61/63, and certainly not BIS, I regularly build up enough threat in between uses of Force Camo to rip off of BIS tanks if I am not guarded. In a HM FP of any tier, with a random tank? I guarantee you I will be tanking most of the fight if the healer has guard. If I step away and stop DPS, sure I can keep from ripping the boss. But I would argue that by not attacking I am not "doing my job" as a DPS in the group. Also, in the case of a Watchman spec Sentinel, the heals generated through burn crits or Zen also generate extra threat, on top of that from attacks.

 

The simple numbers behind threat in this game should convince anyone to stop putting guard on the healers.

 

Damage generates threat at a 1:1 ratio.

Heals generate threat at a less than 1:1 ratio.

Tanks in tank stance generate threat at a greater than 1:1 ratio (and some tank abilities generate a higher threat by default).

 

Characters in melee range (melee) need to overcome 110% of the tank's current threat to pull aggro.

 

Characters at distance (ranged) need to overcome 130% of the tank's current threat to pull aggro.

 

 

So unless your healer is standing in melee range, and your melee are standing there doing nothing, your heals should never need to be guarded. And that 5% damage reduction? Please. Better used on a melee who has to deal with all of the AoE that bosses deal out at close range. That will be less healing for the healer to deal with, versus the healer having to heal him/herself a tiny bit from time to time.

 

And, by the way, I am not disagreeing with you about Vanguard DPS. I just never, ever see them played. Lucky for them they are getting an aggro dump in 2.0.

Unless I know someone is going to pull off, I guard the healer. By the same token, if I'm healing, unless I know one of the DPS is going to pull off I expect to be guarded.

 

Yes, this is largely for trash. On bosses I'll move the guard to the DPS if it's needed. Often it still isn't. Yes, I run with geared Marauders and Mercs and Snipers. It's called "managing your threat."

 

My Merc is in full 61s/partial 63s and only ever pulls off trash mobs that will die in a few seconds. Know which mobs to attack, and when. Don't hit an elite if the tank isn't currently hitting it (i.e., he's AOEing it, but his single target hits are going on a different elite). One or two-shot the normals first, then burn down the strongs quick. *Then* turn to the elites. You should be doing this anyways to help keep those mobs off the healer.

 

If everyone's doing their job right, the guard's not needed at all - but the healer's still the first one that's going to pull off on a group if there's more than 4 enemies active and they're not all grouped up nicely.

 

Again - boss fights are another story. But trash groups, particularly when there's more of them than there are of you - the healer's the first one who's going to pull off, and the longer you can delay that, the easier the fight will be.

Suggestion why don't you let each tank decide who they want to guard and quit telling them they are wrong in doing so. You don't play with every tank so you have no idea of whether they are a good tank or not based on if they are healing a healer or not.

 

Let them guard who they want. If you are not in the group then it really doesn't concern you, does it?

Edited March 16, 2013 by ScarletBlaze