Hello,

 

Updated: 12-29-11' (This is Continuing Thread 2)

 

Original Thread: Thread 1 -- http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=84943

 

 

 

Before you label me a Troll please read my Early Review here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=76222

 

My Reflection of the entire Thread: 3000+ Replies (Read every single one), 120,000+ Views... http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=95738&page=82

 

 

Other forums discussing this issue:

 

(MMO-Champion) http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1052920-Ability-Delay-Character-Responsiveness-(This-will-make-or-break-SW-TOR

 

Incredible Post on Rift Forums - MUST READ! http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-general-discussions/pvp-warfronts/276611-rift-pvp-woes-feedback-long.html

 

 

Video Examples of the Discussed Subject

 

Thank You - Baznasty (Thread 1, Page 87) -- WoW Example/Contrast MUST SEE!:

 

Thank You - Sanchpanza (Thread 1, Page 123) -- TOR Example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzP0xjNLyX4

 

Thank You - Samdbtto (Thread 1, Page 124) -- TOR Target Switch Responsiveness

 

Thank You - Badchx (Thread 1, Page 181) -- TOR Healing Issue MUST SEE!:

 

Thank You - Devolution (Thread 1, Page 210) -- TOR Melee Ability Delay MUST SEE!:

 

Thank You - Hulduet (Thread 2, Page 89) -- TOR Ability Activation Timer:

 

Thank You - Badchx (Thread 2, Page 148) -- WoW/TOR Cast-Moving Responsiveness MUST SEE!

 

 

Note: Please, if you agree with these points and this subject, rate the thread. Perhaps this will raise Bioware's awareness. Anything we can do to make SW:TOR the best it can be because the truth is you and I are here because we want it to succeed and we see it's potential.

 

The game has been out long enough for the masses to finally realize the negatives. As people are getting out of the starting planets and the "new and shiny" feeling starts to subside, the cracks in this new wonderous world are becoming apparent.

 

Ability Delay and Character Responsiveness: -- It is not Latency or FPS Lag

 

I will attempt to discuss this issue and I will do so in a manner that I hope will make everyone understand it better. The "Character Responsiveness" for lack of a better term, is how "smooth" the game plays from your avatars perspective. I have played SWG and EQ to a lesser degree as well as Warhammer Online and several other MMOs and I must honestly say that Bioware has gotten this all too important aspect much better than any previous MMO that I have experienced (with the obvious exception, to which we will get soon).

 

You see, I really want you (The Reader) to understand the importance of this topic. To drive home "how" important this is. In fact I will say this: I am in no way shy to say that, the reason Warhammer Online, EQs, Rift, SWG etc. etc. could never "ever" get to anything near WoW subscriptions is the Character Responsiveness. All these games failed for many reasons, and a game "can" fail for many reasons and on many fronts but this single-one-category... is by "far" the #1 Reason why World of Warcraft is World of Warcraft.

 

Again, I must drive home the fact that no matter if you understand this issue or are new to the subject (and perhaps MMOs) or if you believe the game is fun and enjoyable and think that this is just a vocal minority piping up on something nonsensical. This is the undeniable truth and any game developer or serious gamer worth their salt will agree.

 

 

What is Character Responsiveness and Ability Delay? -- It is not Latency or FPS lag

 

It is the feeling of connection between the person behind the keyboard and the Avatar that is being controlled. Basically, the better the Character Responsiveness is, the smoother the Game Plays! You may HATE World of Warcraft and believe it is the worst abomination on the planet... that is fine. HOWEVER, you "must" objectively admit that it is the absolute, smoothest Character Responsiveness in a Western Available MMO ever.

 

If you are a WoW player, and have played WoW with any amount of skill, competitiveness, you cannot help but cringe when in a Warzone in SW:TOR. It feels unresponsive, frustrating... as if something is wrong with you! but there is nothing you can do about it!

 

If you have never played WoW, perhaps you come from SWG or EQ2 or Rift etc. that is fine! You are WELCOME in this thread, it is not WoW Players against the Rest! I just "need" you to understand that SW:TOR is "noticeably" and "objectively" bad in this crucial department. I am not writing this because I am trolling or because I love WoW, on the contrary. I am doing this because I want SW:TOR to be amazing, I love so many aspects of this great game... but if this is not addressed it "will" die like every other one.

 

 

Why is this "so" important?! -- It is not Latency or FPS lag

 

From here on I will say 0.5 for emphasis but reality is 0.2, 0.3 (ANY) Ability Delay is unacceptable.

 

And here is the real problem. It is so important because MMO gaming has become so "tight", so competitive and so smooth (through WoW), that it is completely and absolutely unacceptable for an ability or animation to be delayed by 0.5 seconds.

 

0.5 seconds is a lot of time, to our visual cortex. 0.5 seconds is the difference between interrupting a CC of the enemy player or not (and thus being disadvantaged/dying). 0.5 seconds is the difference between landing a Taunt on the "add" that just came into the room and thus having it come to you or it one-shotting your healer and thus wiping on the Boss you've just spent 3 Days wiping to.

 

Zero Point Five Seconds is a ******* Long Time

 

 

Bioware, I plead that you dedicate as many resources as required (all if needed) to address this. You cannot cram story/companions/new flashpoints - operations... Class Balance into patches and hope that is good enough.

 

I hate to be a crazed doomsayer but I must state: Mark my words, if SW:TOR's Character Responsiveness and Ability Delay is not on par with WoW's by March-June it will be just another Rift.

 

Bioware, please see the importance of Character Responsiveness and Visual Stimulation of Ability Animation Correctness. It should be impossible for me to have an ability's cooldown activated without seeing it animate.... this is unacceptable. I just truly hope that this isn't a core coding issue or engine issue, because then we're f'd.

 

 

 

Thread 1 -- Page 133 -- Poster: ajjw

 

"In a game like WoW, if your previous spell's animation is still playing when you use your next spell, the old animation immediately ends and that of the new spell beings. However in TOR, if an animation is still playing, the game will not let you cast another spell, even if the cast time and GCD have already finished.

 

In other words, if a spell has a 2s cast time but a 2.5s animation, you'll be sat there looking stupid for 0.5s unable to cast anything after the first spell, whereas in WoW the last 0.5s of the old animation will be "clipped" (ie cut off) and you'll be able to cast a new spell immediately, the animation of which will also begin to play immediately."

 

 

Thread 2 -- Page 109 -- Poster: Reedful (Professional Gaming Experience)

 

His Proven Credentials: http://www.arenajunkies.com/user/174129-threatslol/

 

WC3 Tournament Player

WoW Tournament Player

CS:S Tournament Player

 

Attended regionals and most MLG events from 2008-2010

 

Xcore: On a personal note, I value input like this a lot as this is someone with a very high understand of the intricacies of "Competitive Combat Design". I realize that the view may be a little "Hardcore" but nonetheless it is invaluable and coming from an individual that is perceiving the "Gameworld" at a higher level.

 

"Speaking from a professional gamer's standpoint, the game is simply unplayable. It is barely possible to outplay your opponents with a 2 second median reaction time. Olympic is .4, I'd settle for .8. It is hilarious how they were bragging about taking subscriptions away from World of Warcraft when anything in this game after the single player parts might as well have been made in 2003... by Blizzard, and then discarded so their game would actually be successful.

 

I can interrupt my own instant casts. There's at least a 1 second delay on every single one of my abilities(even instants not on the global) with a professional gaming computer and 3 MS. I live right down the road. You should hire me, throw away the Hero Engine and maybe we can fix your issues.

 

--

 

Say I'm CC'd by the door in Voidstar and I want to trinket to interrupt the cap - here we have a perfect example of how you've ripped off World of Warcraft almost to the letter with everything from the battleground style in this, "Warzone," to "Tenacity" AND it's cooldown, et al, holy moly.

 

So anyway, here I am playing a WoW clone, stunned by the door. I trinket(I am not going to call it Tenacity because it is a blatant rip off of World of Warcraft and it hasn't established a real name for itself.) Nothing happens. Nothing happens for almost an entire global. I am spamming Concussion Charge. At this point I have only casted Tenacity, which does not use my global and I have waited for 1.5 seconds. Finally, the game registers that I have casted my PvP trinket, takes the cooldown 2 seconds late, frees me from my CC and allows my Concussion Charge spam to activate the ability except I get knocked back, the UI tells me my instant cast ability was interrupted and my Resolve bar has already decayed to 75%.

 

There is no saying, "hehehe don't spam your abilities." There is no saying, "well I still like the game anyway!" There is no saying, "well if everyone has the same lag, it's balanced!""

 

 

 

 

 

Thread 2 -- Page 123 -- Georg Zoeller

 

"This issue is under active investigation.

 

The complication is that there are actually a number of different issues with very different causes and potential resolutions lumped together in this thread.

 

All we can say for now is 'we are actively working on the topic of character responsiveness'."

 

Georg "Observer" Zoeller

Principal Lead Combat Designer

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

P.S.: It is not Latency or FPS Lag... also very important to understand.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Xcore

Hello all!

 

Since the previous version of this thread has hit, and gone passed the 1k mark, we have recreated it here.

 

When participating in the discussion, please make sure to keep your posts constructive and respectful toward others and their opinions.

 

Thank you!

 

No faking responsiveness like WoW please.

 

Thanks.

Please fix this..

I agree completely with the OP. I didn't realize that is what it was until now, but this is HUGELY important. It makes the WHOLE experience seem smoother and more solid. For instance I played STO, and I could never peg it before, but now I understand: having to smash the button several times to get an ability to activate was not cool (STO is rather extreme). So even if you can't tell, your brain can sense it, and it gives you a sense of disconnect, there isn't that immediacy. Wow, this is kinda mind blowing.

Yeah, it looks more real when the animations go through, when you block blaster attacks with a saber, and at the same time use skills. I like it. Too bad not all can like the same thing.

 

They wanted to make the fights look more cinematic, so I doubt there's anything to be changed. It is the way it's meant to be with the animations...

In Guild Wars you were expected to interrupt half second cast spells.

 

So they must have done it right. Does this help? I suppose not...

 

They wanted to make the fights look more cinematic, so I doubt there's anything to be changed. It is the way it's meant to be with the animations...

 

Good point.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Gohlar

No faking responsiveness like WoW please.

 

Thanks.

 

Yes, proper responsiveness in combat, what players do 95% of the time, is a bad thing.

 

Ask any professional game designer, they will tell you exactly how Blizzard got combat right with WoW. It set a hallmark for the genre, and along with PvE encounter design, is years ahead of the competition.

 

This is an important issue and can be the dividing line between longevity for massive amounts of players, or longevity for an average amount of players.

 

There is nothing fake about what Blizzard does with WoW if it makes gameplay better, and it does. BioWare has said in the past that gameplay trumps all. So, if they can do anything about this, I am sure they will.

Posting in support of OP and to cap this thread out as well.

 

Make sure to rate it 5.

They wanted to make the fights look more cinematic, so I doubt there's anything to be changed. It is the way it's meant to be with the animations...

 

It's still possible to make animation move a bit faster to clear them off of the GCd faster ... or even chopping the start of the animation to keep the fluidity.

Yeah, it looks more real when the animations go through, when you block blaster attacks with a saber, and at the same time use skills. I like it. Too bad not all can like the same thing.

 

They wanted to make the fights look more cinematic, so I doubt there's anything to be changed. It is the way it's meant to be with the animations...

 

I posted this in the last thread, but... if animations get in the way of gameplay, it is gamebreaking.

 

The choreographed combat is novel, but goes unnoticed most of the time, and even then only affects melee combat for the most part. Especially in up-close battles with lots of explosions and a wide viewing angle, it's all but lost. I know a lot was made about this feature, but if it is in anyway responsible for disconnecting the combat feel from the player, it needs to be removed.

Yes, proper responsiveness in combat, what players do 95% of the time, is a bad thing.

 

Ask any professional game designer, they will tell you exactly how Blizzard got combat right with WoW. It set a hallmark for the genre.

 

A large reason PvP in WoW is widely regarded as a joke is because of the sillyness involved with things not matching up. CCing each other etc.

 

Hallmark for the uninformed perhaps...

 

I posted this in the last thread, but... if animations get in the way of gameplay, it is gamebreaking.

 

If animation effects gameplay it's gamebreaking. Wow....

 

You are entitled to your opinion but I don't want the limp wristed wet noodle attacks we had in WoW tyvm.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Gohlar

whilst i understand the OP fully, and fully support in what he`s saying. The game has been out just over a week, sure it has its faults, and this is one of the biggest. We all know `WoW` is perfect (cough), but people need to realise that this will be fixed, they will be tweaking it constantly, until they get things like this right.

People are panicking, and its like ****! this game is broke! Bioware are`nt stupid, and they will fix it i`m sure. people need to have faith.

 

Tsing

Hello all!

 

Since the previous version of this thread has hit, and gone passed the 1k mark, we have recreated it here.

 

When participating in the discussion, please make sure to keep your posts constructive and respectful toward others and their opinions.

 

Thank you!

 

 

Is there some reason we haven't seen "we are aware of the issue and are looking into it?"

A large reason PvP in WoW is widely regarded as a joke is because of the sillyness involved with things not matching up. CCing each other etc.

 

Hallmark for the uninformed perhaps...

 

There is nothing you can say negative about WoW... all you have to do is look at the scoreboard compared to other games.

 

PvP is a good example... WoW has evolved as a legit e-sport with hundreds of thousands of players. No other MMO has. If it wasn't solid, competitive, strategic and most of all fun it wouldn't achieve that status.

 

Those "uninformed" masses are not wrong. The fringe that values aesthetics over gameplay are, however.

Is there some reason we haven't seen "we are aware of the issue and are looking into it?"

 

It isn't an issue is my guess.

 

Well, outside of some attacks that do seem to have animation problems, but that is a different issue.

 

They didn't want the disconnected slappy hands fighting style that WoW had. I'm glad.

 

There is nothing you can say negative about WoW... all you have to do is look at the scoreboard compared to other games.

 

Are you saying you have Bieber fever? He's very popular you know.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Gohlar

Is there some reason we haven't seen "we are aware of the issue and are looking into it?"

 

Sure, there is. It is just because this is probably not fixable anytime soon. Looks like a fault in the engine or server structure itself.

As a WoW player for six years, as well as a top Death Knight on my previous server up until last week, I can relate to this feeling of delay that seems to sink over my character.

 

Really, I was convinced it was my system that was at fault, because at the moment my hardware just isn't optimal to run the game (despite being able to play something like Portal 2 at full settings, but I digress).

 

It seems to me that there are a lot of people having performance issues where there should not be any, and this makes me sad because I've enjoyed what I have played of the game quite a bit.

 

It would just be nice if these glaring errors, hiccups, glitches, and weird tech issues that always seem to haunt the PC gaming experience were not so...obvious.

 

Great post, OP.

A large reason PvP in WoW is widely regarded as a joke[...]

If PvP in WoW is widely regarded as a joke, how come WoW is the only fantasy MMORPG that has a substantial following among professional competitive gamers, including tournaments with quite a lot of money for the winners? Care to elaborate?

If animation effects gameplay it's gamebreaking. Wow....

 

You are entitled to your opinion but I don't want the limp wristed wet noodle attacks we had in WoW tyvm.

 

My opinion aligns with that of gamers and game developers around the world. It's a solid system, period. That's not really a subjective thing.

A large reason PvP in WoW is widely regarded as a joke is because of the sillyness involved with things not matching up. CCing each other etc.

 

WoW is the closest any 'pure' mmo has got to becoming an esport, it has featured in many tournaments in the past including MLG, no others have come close.

 

Please don't post if you have no clue on this issue.

My opinion aligns with that of gamers and game developers around the world. It's a solid system, period. That's not really a subjective thing.

 

Clearly it is.

 

WoW was designed for the lowest common denominator remember. I hope they don't do that here.

 

If that's what you want, hey cool. Some don't.

 

WoW is the closest any 'pure' mmo has got to becoming an esport, it has featured in many tournaments in the past including MLG, no others have come close.

 

Please don't post if you have no clue on this issue.

 

And Halo is the best FPS blah blah blah.

 

Popular != good.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Gohlar

Sure, there is. It is just because this is probably not fixable anytime soon. Looks like a fault in the engine or server structure itself.

 

it's a fault of the artist designer who created the animation for not talking to the head developper and asking him how long should he create the animation for....the only fix is to redo the animation to match the global cooldown/activation time.

 

For the part about pre-casting this is problably something we can live without ... but the ability delay based on animation is game breaking 100%.

it's a fault of the artist designer who created the animation for not talking to the head developper and asking him how long should he create the animation for....the only fix is to redo the animation to match the global cooldown/activation time.

 

For the part about pre-casting this is problably something we can live without ... but the ability delay based on animation is game breaking 100%.

 

This is true.

Popular != good.

Good is what you like, and bad is what you don't like. We get it.