EDIT 2 years later: WOW this got necro'd. I don't even know who did it, he deleted his post. I haven't seen any warrior hate or even Jugg hate since I came back, so this is a little antiquated...

[/End edit]

Don't worry, fellows, this story has a happy ending.

Been a Juggernaut Tank since I started playing SWTOR. A few days ago, I respecced to Jugg DPS (Vengeance) to see how the other side works. After practicing a bit, I finally got the rotation down, did some PvP, got full purple Daily mods in my armor, started running hardmodes, and decided I really enjoyed it. Personal opinion? Jugg DPS isn't just good, it's amazing. Tonight, I'm in the fleet, when I see just about every DPS' dream come true:

"LF1M DPS HM Foundry"

Quickly asked, got the invite. I said hello but no one else said hi back. I thought that was strange, but put it out of my mind. I was nearly to the taxi when suddenly the leader kicked me. I thought that was even weirder, so I sent him a tell.

"What's up?"

No reponse. Starting to think it's exactly what it looks like. Didn't take long to see confirmation.

"LF1M DPS HM Foundry (No Warriors)"

I knew this was coming. I hadn't run into it yet, but I just knew that I'd eventually see it. Elitism at its worst. Even worse was I knew my DPS was good. I hadn't once run into an enrage timer on my DPS build, I could clear content with the best of them, and knowing how easily I melted casters in PvP, I knew I was more than good enough for Foundry. I got mad. I broadcasted this one:

"*** you kicked me just for being a Jugg DPS!?"

A second later, another Juggernaut spoke up.

"Yeah, he kicked me too. Sad day."

Deep down, I expected this. You hear about it all the time, and it sucks when it comes true. What I didn't expect was what came next - it was probably one of the coolest things I've ever seen come from Imp Fleet General.

"Wait... you're kicking them just for being Jugs?"

"lolwhat no warriors? ***?"

"wow that's so wrong"

"LOL noob no warriors *** is this"

The backlash was immense. They rallied to my defense. Sorcerers, Mercenaries, healers, tanks, other DPS, everyone. A second later, the leader sent a tell to me explaining that it wasn't his call. My gut didn't buy it for a minute. He's the leader. The final say goes to him. Even if it wasn't his call initially, the fact that he would put up with it was bad enough. That's exactly what I told him before he made his way onto my ignore list. The storm in general was getting worse. No one was defending the leader who kicked me. The whole Imperial fleet was ostracizing him for several minutes. Another tell came my way.

"Hey. The leader wanted you to take him off ignore for a second because he wants to talk to you... tbh though I think he's just being an ******."

I didn't like where that was headed. It sounded to me like he wanted to justify his actions and then maybe invite me to the group to save face. I didn't actually know what he wanted to say, and I probably never will, because my pride was at stake here. For a moment, it felt like Juggernaut pride itself was at stake here. I wasn't about let that slide.

"I refuse."

"Yeah, good call."

A few minutes passed, and the zone got quiet again. People moved on, started going about their business. The damage was done, and I came out the victor. A few minutes later, General chat started moving once again. A different voice spoke up this time.

"LFM HM Foundry need 1 DPS"

"who wants to bet that's the same group with a different shouter"

"lol"

"lol yeah"

Well, I wasn't about to jump to conclusions, so I asked to join. Twice. That's when he finally acknowledged me.

"u done this 1 b4?"

"Yes, cleared three times. Hard mode. Was the first Hardmode I ever ran, actually. I think it's easier than BT if you know the fights and don't get bugs, to be honest."

No response. A few minutes later...

"LFM HM Foundry need 1 DPS"

I spoke up. "Yeah, it's the same group. Leader won't acknowledge me."

"lol"

"lol good riddance."

I was still down a group, though. That still stung. I needed my daily done, and while I love Foundry, I'd settle for anything. No other groups were forming, though, but I wouldn't need to wait long. A new name sent me a tell. It was a Sorcerer.

"Hey. I'm the DPS that left their group, the reason they're LFM right now. Warriors weren't the reason that group fell apart, the healer didn't heal and let the tank die on the first 2 trash pulls. We had 2 Warriors, though, so he blames you guys for what happened. Couldn't even clear the 1st boss cause of him. Doesn't wanna admit he's bad. :)"

We chatted for a bit and had a few laughs. A guild member, an Operative Healer I'd run with on Hardmodes twice now, shouted for Black Talon. Inspiration struck, and I snatched him up. Another Juggernaut in my guild, a tank who had just hit 50, was online. This would be his first hardmode, and the whole guild agreed, he was ready. He would be our tank.

"LF1M DPS HM BT. All classes welcome."

On cue, the Sorcerer "Need a DPS? :)"

Did I want a 3-Warrior team? Yes I did, but I believe in rewarding good work, so I invited the sorcerer, and our team was ready. We did not disappoint. We easily cleared with no enrages, even though the healer died by freak accident to the Cyclone Nova in the opening seconds of the final battle (good thing I brought the Sorcerer after all). Obviously, it didn't say much since it was Black Talon, but it was our tank's first hardmode, he was nervous, and I wasn't about to put that much pressure on him by starting him off with something like Boarding Party. The Sorcerer was impressed with my DPS - Elites often didn't last the whole duration of the tank's Force Choke, and we mowed down trash so fast my charge wouldn't be ready in time for the next pull (pretty standard for BT, basically). Everyone knew we were ready to move on to more, but I couldn't stay.

"I need to get to bed, big test in the morning. Oh well. Jugg DPS sucks anyway. >.>"

"lol"

"lmao"

As I was logging out, I noted the time. About an hour since this whole thing started. One last thing popped up in General, reminding me to put the second leader on ignore.

"LFM HM Foundry need 1 DPS"

Psh. Good luck.

If we get a combat log that only we can see - OK, we could use it to "tune" our damage - but as soon as we get one that can be used to show comparisons - jerks like this will have a field day.

It's the downside to MMOs in general

You guys didn't think of the possibility that maybe they already had one or two warriors, and perhaps didn't want to have to share the gear?

Just you and I, apparently

You guys didn't think of the possibility that maybe they already had one or two warriors, and perhaps didn't want to have to share the gear?

If that was true, then they could have said "Sorry, we have enough Warriors as of now." But they didn't.

OP I'm there with you, we have to fight a lot of misconceptions but I've been known to kill off solo mobs in FPs and Ops faster than most of the group. I've never been told twice after someone gives me a chance that Juggs can't dps. Just stick with it, when combat logs come out I have a feeling you'll see a lot of FotM dps Juggs once the rank amateur Theory crafters get a combat log.

(BTW I'm Veng)

Not to mention, if they didn't want a war there, then they would have said no War DPS in the initial tell. I imagine if he had been a marauder no issues would have occured. Alot of players mistakenly just see Jugg. and think tank. I see this all the time. It's like we dont have 2 other functioning specs to them.

First leader? Absolutely wasn't the case. I already explained that his Sorcerer DPS came to me and told me he left that group in protest because the healer from that group was slamming Warriors, Juggernauts in particular, for being bad tanks and bad DPS, and were the reason the group couldn't win the first fight of Foundry according to him. The leader enabled him and paid the price for it - the DPS went on strike and refused the easy group to make a statement.

Second leader? While we aren't 100% sure, he never denied the claims. He made no effort to clarify anything. Your assertion that he might have thought I was a tank isn't possible, because my second tell to him was "Hey, I'll join, I'm a DPS. >.>" The guy himself wasn't a warrior, so if he had two other warriors who didn't want to share the gear, they could have spoken up and explained that when people started accusing the new leader of representing the same group. General was already siding with us, so it would have been a funny, but heartwarming, revelation. The Warriors would have jumped at the chance to explain that. He could have even spoken up and said so, but he never did. Since it was well known to General Chat by now that I was a Juggernaut DPS, he wouldn't have asked for my "resume", he would have either kept ignoring me or should have explained they had too many warriors and didn't want to share gear.

Neither leader denied the claim that they were avoiding Warrior Tanks -and- DPS when the accusations were flung at them. First leader doubled down and tried to justify himself. Second never said a word that wasn't his usual LFM shout. I'm sure both of them were just as shocked as I was to know that public opinion was on our side, not theirs.

Thankfully I have never had this issue in game due to having a decent guild but any haters I have come across in game have learnt the hard way how much dps us Jugg's can do.

Speaks volumes about how **** they must be as players that they feel the need to exclude certain classes from their groups in order to clear quite frankly content that can and has been cleared by 4 drunks barely able to string a sentence together.

First leader? Absolutely wasn't the case. I already explained that his Sorcerer DPS came to me and told me he left that group in protest because the healer from that group was slamming Warriors, Juggernauts in particular, for being bad tanks and bad DPS, and were the reason the group couldn't win the first fight of Foundry according to him. The leader enabled him and paid the price for it - the DPS went on strike and refused the easy group to make a statement.

The funny thing is that first fight in the Foundry is a pure tactics thing.

Did Foundry today on my Merc with a Jugg tank. He said the first fight would be rough. I told him I got the first group covered, he just needs to go play with the second. Death From Above, boom, first 4 mobs wiped out, and then we turned to the two silvers and the gold, which he'd nicely rounded up right off the bat.

The problem is most tanks get hung up on those 4 normal mobs, which lets the silvers and gold spread out a bit, when they should mostly ignore those first four and leave them to the DPS, and focus on picking up the 3 bigger mobs. And this isn't a Jugg tank thing either. My assassin tank found this pull annoying as well. But when grouped with a merc who slaughtered the first 4 normal mobs, well, the light clicked on. And it hasn't been a problem since.

I think if the mobs were all lined up, rather than 2 lines that look like they can be pulled separately, well, most tanks would automatically pick up the big stuff and leave the smaller stuff for the DPS. But because they do look like two separate groups, our instinct is to pick up the front group and hope the rear doesn't aggro (which, of course, never happens). And, for the most part, we just keep doing that.

Anyway, as to Jugg's DPS'ing, I've only ever grouped with one Jugg DPS. He was a tank interested in trying out the DPS side of things. That run went very smoothly, his DPS was great, so that one Jugg has me convinced that Jugg DPS is perfectly acceptable.

Wow, I hope I don't come across like that when I'm saying "no [class]" just because I want to do a class run...

Why not say "LF XXX (class) for class run HM XX" instead of "LF1 DPS no XXXX"

Never had this kind of problem. I believe you overreacting. Add that player to a ignore, and move along.

I'll say, it's much harder to just accept and move along when you're being denied access to content that you know you're good enough to do, especially when you're convinced the majority is grudgingly allowing you on their runs out of pity (the forums will do that to you, it turns out the majority believe Juggernauts are good). Still, that was actually my entire plan, at first, but when it turned into a brouhaha in my favor, I saw an opportunity to make something good out of it. Rather than just me putting the elitist leader on ignore, we got a large portion of the server to put them on ignore, and got a good group out of it.

I thought the story was rather inspiring, since all you ever hear on the forums is how bad Juggernaut is at doing pretty much anything. From experience, I actually think Jugg DPS is great to superior, but our tanking is rather mediocre. Fun and challenging, yes, but less rewarding and harder on the group compared to Powertech and Assassin.

It gives you valuable knowledge on what players to avoid in the future.

I've been denied a group as dps jugg, and i have full Rakata with procced columni implants/ear piece lol.

Hell i tank BT hm in Rage spec frequently.

Reroll Republic! We don't have these problems on our side.

But then I'd have to give up my Fus Ro Dah.

You guys didn't think of the possibility that maybe they already had one or two warriors, and perhaps didn't want to have to share the gear?

I was thinking the exact same thing but people always jump to the worst possible conclusion.

I've had plenty of groups that didn't want to take me because they already had 2 troopers or groups that warned me that there were 2 other troopers and I said it was alright and I would just wait for another. Doesn't bother me in the slightest when I get passed over due to class, the whole point of doing these Hardmodes it to get loot and if it's going to inconvenience people by bringing too many of the same class then it defeats the purpose of running the flashpoint.

I was thinking the exact same thing but people always jump to the worst possible conclusion.

 

I've had plenty of groups that didn't want to take me because they already had 2 troopers or groups that warned me that there were 2 other troopers and I said it was alright and I would just wait for another. Doesn't bother me in the slightest when I get passed over due to class, the whole point of doing these Hardmodes it to get loot and if it's going to inconvenience people by bringing too many of the same class then it defeats the purpose of running the flashpoint.

You missed the part where we were right. The healer wrongfully blamed Warriors as a class for his team's inability to defeat the first boss of Foundry. This wasn't about loot, this was about a bad healer passing the buck for his own failures. I didn't assume that, I was told that by his former teammate.

Get off your high horse. We didn't jump to conclusions. I saw the party makeup before I was kicked and it was clearly Sorcerer Healer, Assassin Tank, Mercenary, and myself. I didn't include that because I didn't think it was important information. Clearly, I was mistaken.

You missed the part where we were right. The healer wrongfully blamed Warriors as a class for his team's inability to defeat the first boss of Foundry. This wasn't about loot, this was about a bad healer passing the buck for his own failures. I didn't assume that, I was told that by his former teammate.

 

Get off your high horse. We didn't jump to conclusions. I saw the party makeup before I was kicked and it was clearly Sorcerer Healer, Assassin Tank, Mercenary, and myself. I didn't include that because I didn't think it was important information. Clearly, I was mistaken.

The only part of your post where you indicated that you thought you were right was this:

"Hey. I'm the DPS that left their group, the reason they're LFM right now. Warriors weren't the reason that group fell apart, the healer didn't heal and let the tank die on the first 2 trash pulls. We had 2 Warriors, though, so he blames you guys for what happened. Couldn't even clear the 1st boss cause of him. Doesn't wanna admit he's bad. "

The group never came out and said that this was the reason you weren't taken on the run according to you. All you have is the word of some random guy claiming to have been DPSing in the group. For all you know he was to blame for their wipe, if there even was one, and is deciding to put the blame on the healer. When there are wipes, especially when a group falls apart, people love to throw the blame around and rarely take fault so you can't really take the word of anyone unless you were there.

So from our standpoint with the information you gave us all we can see is a group that doesn't want a Warrior which could mean that they either don't want to split the loot(the most common innocent reason) or they simply don't think Warriors are viable dps(the much less common reason that would make the group a bunch of idiots). Simply stating the group makeup would have proved the latter, otherwise it just seems like you were jumping to the worst possible scenario when you didn't get invited into a group because of your class.