Hybrid or not. every class is able to use all three trees together or not. Stop the complain of hybrids...man up and work harder.

/signed

Hybrid or not. every class is able to use all three trees together or not. Stop the complain of hybrids...man up and work harder.

 

Yeah, why not remove all matchmaking at all?

It's not the hybrid itself that is the problem, it is the fact that they mess up solo ranked queue since they are classified as a dps, the system matches them up with a dps. So consequently the match becomes 3dps and 1 healer vs 4 dps, and the dps don't even know that there is a healer on the other team until it is too late. They just need to classify the hybrid with enough points in the non dps tree to be whatever that tree is (healer/tank) to fix this.

3 Maras and a Sin vs 4 Skank Heelz is why there is a problem..

 

Yes, this was an actual match in primetime on PoT5.

First off a clarification, both the op and me are using the word hybrid here to mean hybrids that do multiple roles or a different role than the queue-system shows them as doing.

 

When you tell us complainers "man up and work harder", that is something one can do, but it can't be the standard reply to every balance issue; nerfs, buffs and changes happen for a reason, and in my opinion they should continue as long as they are improving balance.

 

Before people start to rage at what i'm writing because of me calling for nerfs and god knows what they interpret this as, i want to point out that i have nothing against any kind of hybrid in normal warzones, grouped ranked warzones, or anywhere else outside of solo ranked arenas. They are not always strong in solo ranked, in some situations they are even a negative thing. Some hybrids are nearly exclusively terrible, and many are bad, a few however are good (sage/sorcerer heal hybrids, vengenace/vigilance offtanks, assasin/shadow tank hybrids and deception/infiltration offtanks, as well as probably a few i can't remember).

The bad specs i am not that angry at, because i usually don't get them in my team, this does not mean i don't feel they should stop making SR a worse place, the same way people playing good hybrid specs should.

(i don't mean to sound polite and neutral, if only profanity was allowed on this forum i could make it clear exactly how pissed i am at this issue).

 

The two i would say are strongest there, are veng/vilg offtanks, and sage/sorc offheals. Full veng/vilg is unique in that it keeps 95% of it's damage and only loses unstoppable, which is a punishment but not enough in my opinion, and in that it can easily switch between tank/dps stance without any cost while playing a full dps spec (powertech/vanguard ap/tactics skanktanks anyone?).

In a 4dps match where the dps are actually dps i would simply laugh at a vengeance jugg going soresu for the guard, but they are very powerful in 3dps+healer matches and matches where they have a sorc offhealer - some of them even carry tank gear in their inventory to exploit the possibility more.

 

Had every single jugg played vengeance, every single sorc played offheals, and had the match system made sure every match had the exact same advanced classes on opposing teams the entire issue i'm presenting would not exist. This is not the case though: at the moment randomness decides who gets the players with the advantage of offtanking, or the double-edged sword of sorcerers/sages playing a offheal-centered spec. This is a bad thing because it separates the connection between the skill of individual players, and their win-rate. I think one should strive to make individual skill the most important factor affecting winrate, and that the role-hybrid/offtank issue makes the trend go in the opposite direction.

 

I don't think hybrids and offtanking necessarily requires less skill, i simply think the reward is not proportional to the effort, and that the effort involves exploiting a system that (i can't see how this should not be the case) intends the roles detected to be the roles people do. This means that i don't hold the players of these specs responsible, although i think they are doing a negative think and i tell them this very clearly, i hold the solo ranked role-detection and matchmaking system responsible, and i think that's what needs a fixing.

 

I hope this explains the issue. If there's any clarifications i can do, or if you want me to elaborate (i could write about this for pages, it's a stupid thing for many reasons and on many levels).

Edited April 27, 2014 by Twithep

Allow respec in match then.

Dps that can guard or heal throw off balance in solo ranked.

Dps that can guard or heal throw off balance in solo ranked.

 

Maybe it's time for you to reroll?

 

Can't always expect to win with those Marauders and Sins, you know. It's nice to hear that some people may need to look at playing different classes and specs to beat those hybrids in ranked.

Maybe it's time for you to reroll?

 

Can't always expect to win with those Marauders and Sins, you know. It's nice to hear that some people may need to look at playing different classes and specs to beat those hybrids in ranked.

Or fix matchmaking to split them evenly, or fix T-4+ skills to make them worth speccing...

 

How do I know when to play what class btw or should I just respect to Skank and skip along my merry way?

Edited April 25, 2014 by L-RANDLE

It's not the hybrid itself that is the problem, it is the fact that they mess up solo ranked queue since they are classified as a dps, the system matches them up with a dps. So consequently the match becomes 3dps and 1 healer vs 4 dps, and the dps don't even know that there is a healer on the other team until it is too late. They just need to classify the hybrid with enough points in the non dps tree to be whatever that tree is (healer/tank) to fix this.

 

You and others have some strange idea solo Q is balanced at all. You want balance build a team and Q ranked and stop your little girl arguments.

Or fix matchmaking to split them evenly, or fix T-4+ skills to make them worth speccing...

 

How do I know when to play what class btw or should I just respect to Skank and skip along my merry way?

 

Simple: you change your playstyle after being beaten.

 

Learning from your mistakes requires you to make one first, you know. Sometimes, you're not going to be prepared for losses.

 

Instead of whining about it on the forums, maybe you should try and come up with a counter to it. Because the hybrid spec is far from game breaking, you can still adapt to it and diversify the game by playing more than the one toon.

Simple: you change your playstyle after being beaten.

 

Learning from your mistakes requires you to make one first, you know. Sometimes, you're not going to be prepared for losses.

 

Instead of whining about it on the forums, maybe you should try and come up with a counter to it. Because the hybrid spec is far from game breaking, you can still adapt to it and diversify the game by playing more than the one toon.

 

You got any wise words, on how to counter skank tank and skank healer as 4 dps?

You got any wise words, on how to counter skank tank and skank healer as 4 dps?

 

I'll admit, I don't exactly know which spec in particular you are referring to with "skank tank", as I know there are a variety of builds for sin DPS tanks in particular in addition to having not spent a lot of time entering ranked after season one.

 

So first and foremost, go ahead and give me the number stats for each of the different specs you think are game breaking, and I'll give you a counter to them.

Simple: you change your playstyle after being beaten.

 

Learning from your mistakes requires you to make one first, you know. Sometimes, you're not going to be prepared for losses.

 

Instead of whining about it on the forums, maybe you should try and come up with a counter to it. Because the hybrid spec is far from game breaking, you can still adapt to it and diversify the game by playing more than the one toon.

 

Please think about what you are writing and realize that it makes absolutely no sense and is not at all relevant to any hybrid discussion.

 

What is the strategy to deal with them having a healer when you don't? An actual healer would be better, but since hybrids qualify as a DPS, that is a distinct, uncounterable advantage. It's not a "learn from your mistakes" situation, unless you consider queuing for solo ranked a mistake.

You and others have some strange idea solo Q is balanced at all. You want balance build a team and Q ranked and stop your little girl arguments.

 

I don't understand why wanting 4 dps to actually fight against 4 dps is a problem.

I'll admit, I don't exactly know which spec in particular you are referring to with "skank tank", as I know there are a variety of builds for sin DPS tanks in particular in addition to having not spent a lot of time entering ranked after season one.

 

So first and foremost, go ahead and give me the number stats for each of the different specs you think are game breaking, and I'll give you a counter to them.

 

Did you just say, that you actually have no idea what the people are complaining about?

Simple: you change your playstyle after being beaten.

 

Learning from your mistakes requires you to make one first, you know. Sometimes, you're not going to be prepared for losses.

 

Instead of whining about it on the forums, maybe you should try and come up with a counter to it. Because the hybrid spec is far from game breaking, you can still adapt to it and diversify the game by playing more than the one toon.

 

It isn't about adaptation. It's about a system in place to attempt to try to balance the playing field from the role perspective, and its failure. Assuming skill is fairly even, there is no way to recover HP on one side. That's an imbalance unto itself, but then when the system stacks one side because their "all DPS" then its a system flaw that no adaptation can fix.

 

Imbalance in roles is exactly what is to be avoided in Ranked in order for the label of "Ranked" to have any credibility..

asdfasdf Edited April 25, 2014 by kaimelion

Please think about what you are writing and realize that it makes absolutely no sense and is not at all relevant to any hybrid discussion.

 

What is the strategy to deal with them having a healer when you don't? An actual healer would be better, but since hybrids qualify as a DPS, that is a distinct, uncounterable advantage. It's not a "learn from your mistakes" situation, unless you consider queuing for solo ranked a mistake.

 

It's not at all.

 

I've seen three smart DPS coordinate in an arena against a fully specced healer in the first ten seconds with a kill, the hybrid Sorcs aren't going to pump out more than a fully specced healer. So there's your first counter to where a team can succeede against one with a healer: better coordination and smart team play.

 

Secondly, I asked merely for the "skank tank" build you are referring to, as there are a variety of different tank hybrids out there with not only sins, but Jugs as well. In particular, a spec I run is a combination of high Deception and a little bit of Darkness, which easily finds it counter even in the meta for Marauders, Carnage, outside of Deflection as well as in specs like Madness and Lethality outside of Shroud.

 

Since you seem to believe the only way to win is to play whenever everyone has the same odds at victory, I'm sure the difficult solution you seemed to forget is that Merc DPS, both Pyro and Arsenal, have a good range of utility in controlling the "overpowered" hybrid Sorcs:

 

-Ranged stuns for the sprinters

-Ranged interrupts, as a means to counter Sorcs who can kite melee and get casts off by gaining distance.

-Electronet. Amazing how Sorcs can't bubble through it, unless they want to waste their only break free? Or better yet, since this is solo ranked and likely a situation where Sorcs that use their bubble at 25%/close to death and have already used the breakout to escape another close call, they'll probably die and wither without the ability to use their one true escape method since Electronet would render one into a sitting duck if they were attempting to save their bubble without their main breaker available.

 

Let's also take a look at the second spec that many people seem to be forgetting: Concealment DPS.

 

-You have about as much methods of control as a Jug tank, and Sorcs suffer against controlling specs

-Extreme, well placed burst counters Sorc capability any day. Main reason why Concealment's KD was nerfed = to make sure Sorcs weren't too easy for them to solo.

-Did I mention how much controlling effects you wield?

 

So no, your Sorc overlords are not that overpowered. They're just overpowered to your Marauder and Sin DPS toons, maybe you should try and play something besides the meta in a queue to counter other specs. That's what PvP is supposed to be about, stop whining because your scissors can't beat the rocks.

 

However, like I said, give me a "skank tank" spec that is game breaking, as the only whining I've seen being made about a (probably) unlikely meta in the game are the Sorc hybrids. All the other tank DPS specs I've seen have very key weaknesses to them, please prove me wrong if you can.

You and others have some strange idea solo Q is balanced at all. You want balance build a team and Q ranked and stop your little girl arguments.

 

not every server can support group ranked

It's not at all.

 

I've seen three smart DPS coordinate in an arena against a fully specced healer in the first ten seconds with a kill, the hybrid Sorcs aren't going to pump out more than a fully specced healer. So there's your first counter to where a team can succeede against one with a healer: better coordination and smart team play.

 

Secondly, I asked merely for the "skank tank" build you are referring to, as there are a variety of different tank hybrids out there with not only sins, but Jugs as well. In particular, a spec I run is a combination of high Deception and a little bit of Darkness, which easily finds it counter even in the meta for Marauders, Carnage, outside of Deflection as well as in specs like Madness and Lethality outside of Shroud.

 

Since you seem to believe the only way to win is to play whenever everyone has the same odds at victory, I'm sure the difficult solution you seemed to forget is that Merc DPS, both Pyro and Arsenal, have a good range of utility in controlling the "overpowered" hybrid Sorcs:

 

-Ranged stuns for the sprinters

-Ranged interrupts, as a means to counter Sorcs who can kite melee and get casts off by gaining distance.

-Electronet. Amazing how Sorcs can't bubble through it, unless they want to waste their only break free? Or better yet, since this is solo ranked and likely a situation where Sorcs that use their bubble at 25%/close to death and have already used the breakout to escape another close call, they'll probably die and wither without the ability to use their one true escape method since Electronet would render one into a sitting duck if they were attempting to save their bubble without their main breaker available.

 

Let's also take a look at the second spec that many people seem to be forgetting: Concealment DPS.

 

-You have about as much methods of control as a Jug tank, and Sorcs suffer against controlling specs

-Extreme, well placed burst counters Sorc capability any day. Main reason why Concealment's KD was nerfed = to make sure Sorcs weren't too easy for them to solo.

-Did I mention how much controlling effects you wield?

 

So no, your Sorc overlords are not that overpowered. They're just overpowered to your Marauder and Sin DPS toons, maybe you should try and play something besides the meta in a queue to counter other specs. That's what PvP is supposed to be about, stop whining because your scissors can't beat the rocks.

 

However, like I said, give me a "skank tank" spec that is game breaking, as the only whining I've seen being made about a (probably) unlikely meta in the game are the Sorc hybrids. All the other tank DPS specs I've seen have very key weaknesses to them, please prove me wrong if you can.

 

So you saying I have a button to instantly change from my Mara to my Sage so I can properly "adapt" to a lol matchup? Riiiiight.

Edited April 25, 2014 by L-RANDLE

This thread is bad and you should feel bad.

It's not at all.

 

I've seen three smart DPS coordinate in an arena against a fully specced healer in the first ten seconds with a kill, the hybrid Sorcs aren't going to pump out more than a fully specced healer. So there's your first counter to where a team can succeede against one with a healer: better coordination and smart team play.

 

Secondly, I asked merely for the "skank tank" build you are referring to, as there are a variety of different tank hybrids out there with not only sins, but Jugs as well. In particular, a spec I run is a combination of high Deception and a little bit of Darkness, which easily finds it counter even in the meta for Marauders, Carnage, outside of Deflection as well as in specs like Madness and Lethality outside of Shroud.

 

Since you seem to believe the only way to win is to play whenever everyone has the same odds at victory, I'm sure the difficult solution you seemed to forget is that Merc DPS, both Pyro and Arsenal, have a good range of utility in controlling the "overpowered" hybrid Sorcs:

 

-Ranged stuns for the sprinters

-Ranged interrupts, as a means to counter Sorcs who can kite melee and get casts off by gaining distance.

-Electronet. Amazing how Sorcs can't bubble through it, unless they want to waste their only break free? Or better yet, since this is solo ranked and likely a situation where Sorcs that use their bubble at 25%/close to death and have already used the breakout to escape another close call, they'll probably die and wither without the ability to use their one true escape method since Electronet would render one into a sitting duck if they were attempting to save their bubble without their main breaker available.

 

Let's also take a look at the second spec that many people seem to be forgetting: Concealment DPS.

 

-You have about as much methods of control as a Jug tank, and Sorcs suffer against controlling specs

-Extreme, well placed burst counters Sorc capability any day. Main reason why Concealment's KD was nerfed = to make sure Sorcs weren't too easy for them to solo.

-Did I mention how much controlling effects you wield?

 

So no, your Sorc overlords are not that overpowered. They're just overpowered to your Marauder and Sin DPS toons, maybe you should try and play something besides the meta in a queue to counter other specs. That's what PvP is supposed to be about, stop whining because your scissors can't beat the rocks.

 

However, like I said, give me a "skank tank" spec that is game breaking, as the only whining I've seen being made about a (probably) unlikely meta in the game are the Sorc hybrids. All the other tank DPS specs I've seen have very key weaknesses to them, please prove me wrong if you can.

 

Every 40k guy guarding is an advantage for the team, especially if there is a healer around. And its not because the guy is a good player. it just because you are giving your teammates enough time to kill the enemies dps. Especially with a healer having a higher heal potential, than DPS classes have DPS potential. A hybrid healer with a hybrid tank gives so much survivability to your team. Survivability, that the others team doesnt have.

 

Also people that do hybrids know how the "matchmaking" works. If you want to heal, why not queue as a healer? If you want to tank, why not queue as a tank?

I just wish my religion gave me clairvoyance to conjure up when I need to change classes when skanks inhabit the yolo Que..