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Top 3 issues: Your opinion


ArchangelLBC

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So I'm not the representative, but the assassins and shadows already got the ball rolling for themselves and this whole class rep thing has me wondering: What ARE the three top issues for commandos? Here are my thoughts.

 

 

1) Tech Override: Previously our last ability learned, and supposedly our "top level" cooldown, Tech Override is pretty horrible in the grand scheme of things. One instant cast ability once every two minutes for non-gunnery specs, and even the two every 90 seconds for gunnery, is pretty bad when you consider the offensive cooldowns of not only gunslingers and sages (Illegal Mods and Mental Alacrity respectively), but also our brother troopers who rolled Vanguard (Battle Focus is an incredible cooldown by comparison). I would like to explore the possibility of having a new offensive cooldown added at level 50 which is worthy of the name. Even making Battle Focus a Trooper ability instead of just vanguard only (precedent: Diversion was made a general trooper ability instead of trooper only, Commandos have also been given abilities like In-combat revive, and an interrupt which weren't originally considered necessary for the class).

 

Such a cooldown should be useful for increasing either damage or healing for a limited time (10-12 seconds) on a two minute cooldown, and would make us more attractive in pretty much every aspect of the game.

 

2) Ammo management: The mirroring of our resource system with that of Bounty Hunters was a welcome change, but I as a raid DPS have found that in order to really maximize my contribution I have to constantly push my ammo to the limits, and if I screw up even a little that it is very VERY punishing. I have both a sorc and a sniper at 55, and their turret specs (Lightning and Marksman respectively) have zero energy management issues, and even their other specs seem to be less punishing and more rewarding when they do try and push it.

 

What's interesting here is that I feel like this was less of an issue in 1.7 when our 4 piece set bonus and our talent tree made High Impact Bolt free.

 

I know so far this entry has focused more on gunnery PVE, but my understanding is that ammo issues affect commando in all three specs and represent a fundamental problem. I feel less qualified to comment on these specs because I am simply less familiar with them. Nevertheless I'd really like to see ammo management made better for all three specs (perhaps a partial unnerfing to SCC for CM, and I don't even know what for Assault, but more on that later, and a rework of talents like special munitions for Gunnery).

 

While I don't feel like energy management should be completely mindless, at the very least there should be a real reward for pushing the limits on our ammo, and/or pushing those limits and screwing up shouldn't be so very crippling.

 

As an addendum, and this is a purely commando only issue, but I should be able to see my actual ammo at any given time. When I'm on my sniper I can see exactly how much energy I have, when I'm on my sorc I can see exactly how much heat I have, and when I'm on my PT I can see exactly how much heat I have. On my commando I see an approximate graphical representation of how much ammo I have, with no actual figure. This is ridiculous and should be fixed right the hell now. If this isn't immediately actionable then I call shenanigans on the entire class representative project, and on the entire combat team as idiotic lazy incompetents.

 

3) Fix Assault Spec. It's garbage. I know some truly dedicated players like Gyro can make it work and my hat is off to a top notch player for doing it, but even his solution is a "spam caster" playstyle which doesn't even take the top talent, and I'm pretty sure he sticks with it because he's got the talent to do it, since even he admits that gunnery is generally the better DPS spec. When that's what the spec is looking like played at its best then something is very wrong with the tree itself. My personal feeling is that Incendiary Round should have its ammo reduced, the nerf to Plasma Cell should be rescinded and Assault Plastique should be reworked. But even that sounds like bandaid fixes and it might just be better to rework the entire spec from the ground up (VGs would also benefit from this).

 

In that same vein, it seems to me that all three specs suffer from forced talent spending into absolutely worthless talents. Not "not very useful talents", but useless. The biggest culprit here is by far Combat Medics being forced to spend two precious points in Frontline Medic in order to free up Probe Medic. These skills should absolutely not be linked in the fashion they are. It's bad enough that there is forced spending in more or less useless talents in order to advance to the next tier sometimes, and I understand that this isn't a commando exclusive problem, but the Frontline Medic > Probe Medic one is just senseless.

 

 

Those are my thoughts. I'll note that while I'm primarily a PVE Gunnery DPS, the issues brought up touch on all commandos in some way, whether they heal, DPS, PVE, or PVP. What do you guys think is important?

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1) Tech Override is a nice ability but it needs lower cooldown, 2 instacast once every 60 sec sounds sexy ;)

2) well i dont care about pve, but in pvp on gunnery u wont be out of ammo in 90% of the cases.

3) gunnery is so strong right now i don't rly need assault buff, i would like to see combat medic buff ;)

 

btw assault is better spec in lowbie pvp when u don't have ur demo round.

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I would say (mostly with PVP in mind, but trying to do justice to PVE) mine would follow yours closely:

 

1. Ammo management. I don't DPS enough to feel that I can properly say what is necessary for either tree (although it is good to see that overall Gunnery has been improved significantly since 2.0). Healers in both PVP and PVE would see relief from the heavy-handed ammo nerfs in 1.2 that were overkill following the output nerfs to pretty much every one of the healing abilities. This should be relaxed, perhaps by allowing Supercharge Cells to build faster or return more ammo, or allowing Bacta Infusion to refund some ammo on use, or by returning Field Triage to its pre-1.2 state.

 

2. Lowering of cooldowns. Reserve Powercell and Tech Override are my main two targets with this, particularly Tech Override. I'm still waiting for anyone who can explain to me what is overpowered about a Commando being able to use one ability instantly every minute (two in the case of Gunnery). Tech Override in particular has so many utility roles that its absolutely a shame it is on such a long cooldown because it prevents our utility from actually functioning properly. It should also affect Emergency Medical Probe (the in-combat revive) which would allow all Commandos, or perhaps only Combat Medics, to be the only healing AC that can instantly revive a fallen ally in combat. Reserve Powercell ties in with the ammo management issues and might not be a necessary change if those problems are resolved. Adrenaline Rush also has a long three-minute cooldown, which I think is fair if your Adrenaline Rush was triggered by the enemy. Otherwise, it should have a two minute cooldown (because it has already been on your for a minute, effectively remaining a three minute cooldown). I've seen people suggest lowering Reactive Shield's cooldown as well, but this runs the risk of becoming imbalanced if its anything less than 90 seconds when it comes to Combat Medics.

 

3. Assault does need a review, but this is not a problem exclusive to Commandos, it is shared across all Troopers. Whatever is done needs to seriously consider the consequences of the other. The way the balance of Assault between Commando/Vanguard appears to be is that Commandos must channel for procs but are ranged (30m) while Vanguards have instant procs but are locked into melee range (10m). Some clarification here from the developers could also be good for both ACs.

 

EDIT: That's not to say there aren't other things which could be changed and improved, but I think the first two would go a long way for all Commandos and the last one is a cross-AC issue that resolves two problems with one stone.

Edited by SpaniardInfinity
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1) btw assault is better spec in lowbie pvp when u don't have ur demo round.

 

I think all class questions/issues should be geared towards high level operations/ranked. I will post my thoughts once I get home. Typing a thesis on a phone is no fun :p

 

Questions that Man-iac would like addressed by bioware.

 

A.) PvP Utility

 

Let's talk about the sage and scoundrel for a minute. I know, blasphemy in the commando forums but bear with me. The Sage has the ability to pull a friendly target to their location enabling a sage to save a target from fire pulls or pull a friendly out of a bad position. A scoundrel is the preferred class to initiate caps or intercept targets because of the scoundrel roll, ability to sap an enemy (stealth stun), and AOE flashbang. These two classes offer tremendous utility in the PvP sphere. Note: Utility is less of a concern in PvE where engagements are longer, targets cannot be CC'd, and parsing bigger DPS/Heal numbers is more important.

 

The only utility that the Commando brings is stealth/leap prevention every 1 minute and 21 seconds (Electro net). Tech override's instant stun does not compare to a scoundrel's AOE flashbang. Hold the line does not offer any team utility while attempting to carry the ball and can be easily countered in Huttball via hard CC. If the dmg/heals and player skill/ability of these classes was equal, there would be no reason to ever bring a commando in a ranked warzone when you could get the added utility of a Scoundrel or Sage.

 

Bioware needs to increase the dmg/heals above that of more utilitarian classes like Sage/Scoundrel or increase commando utility to bring it within parity of other classes.

 

Solutions to Commando PvP Utility

 

a.) Increase the Heal/DPS to not rely on RNG crit and place it above that of other more utilitarian classes.

b.) Introduce a HOT Purge/Despell Ability

c.) Introduce a guard Purge/Despell ability

d.) Decrease the CD on Electro Net

 

a.) Increase Heal/DPS #'s

 

This one is pretty self explanatory. If the commando has no utility, give the commando more dps/heals so that ranked teams must make an active decision and ask "Do we want more DPS/Heal output or the utility of the other classes." Currently, it is no question since the DPS/Heals are well below the other classes and the Commando offers no utility in ranked pvp.

 

b. HOT Purge Ability

 

This is a new game mechanic that BW could benefit from to give the Commando utility while also lowering the OP factor of the scoundrel. Imagine field aid (the commando cleanse of two negative physical/tech effects on a friendly) being adapted to remove 1-2 heals over time on an enemy target. I have never been a fan of just nerfing classes when people cry, this allows skilled players to counter the OP factor of slow release medpack which allows scoundrels to heal their entire team while even stunned. I firmly believe that this would even the playing field among scoundrel healers while also giving the Commando a much needed Utility buff.

 

c. Guard Debuff

 

The premise is to change Electro net so that it not only stops movement abilities/stealth but prevents a target from being guarded. With this change, BW could justify the obscenely long cool down on electro net (1 minute and 30 seconds). In a 1v1 duel, this changes nothing. In PvE, this changes nothing. In PvP, it gives Commandos a much needed Utility buff and nerfs the OP factor of healers/tank stacking in ranked warzones. This is an easy change, on a preexisting ability. I know others have said that this would make electro net OP. Just keep in mind, THE COOLDOWN ON ELECTRO NET IS 1 MINUTE AND 30 SECONDS. In a ranked, you will still need to rely on your team to focus the target down and this change will not guarantee a kill.

 

d. Decrease the CD on electro net.

 

The title speaks for itself. The cooldown on electro net is too long. The dps while electro net is on cooldown does not justify bringing a Commando into a ranked warzone. Electro net does give Healers a rather underutilized tool in escapability. My only fear is that a CD decrease would allow healers to run wild, which may be a good thing considering how under powered they are. Note: electro net in pve is just fluff damage since its effects will not have an effect on most bosses.

 

to be continued... work is kicking my *** ATM

Edited by ManiacDavis
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1) cooldowns on our utiltiy skills are much too long (specifically Tech Override, Adrenaline Rush, and Reserve Powercell)

2) ammo management needs a few minor tweaks

3) the combat medic tree needs to be streamlined (remove/reorganize certain talents)

 

i realize this is broad, but cba to get into a lot of detail at the moment.

Edited by cashogy_reborn
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Fair enough but we do want to be as thorough as possible when we actually deliver these questions. Nice simple shallow questions leads to to nice simple shallow answers, and considering it takes something like 16 weeks to cycle back to us (assuming the program even lasts that long), I hope whoever is chosen is as absolutely thorough as possible.

 

On cooldowns, I would definitely support a 60 second cooldown for both TO and RP, but what I meant by (1) is that what I'd REALLY like is something which actually increases my damage. An actual, by God, offensive cooldown. RP kind of does this indirectly, and a talented Recharge Cells gives you 10% alacrity for a whopping majestic 6 freaking seconds.

 

By contrast, Mental Alacrity gives Sages 20% Alacrity and interrupt immunity for 10 seconds on a two minute cooldown (with talents to lower its cooldown), and all in a spec that has zero force issues.

 

Illegal Mods gives 30% accuracy and 15% Armor Penetration for 10 seconds, and Burst Volley (Sharpshooter exclusive cooldown) gives 10% alacrity and 2 energy per second (actually pushes you over 9 energy regen per second) and that latss for 15 seconds on just a 45 second cooldown.

 

I look at that something like that, and then I look at Tech Override and all I can think is, what good is that? TO definitely has its uses, and we should keep it and get it on either a shorter cooldown or have it have an effect which simply lasts for 10-12 seconds, or both, but damn if I don't really want something which can make sure I drop the hammer when I need to. Like, I dunno, maybe battle focus?

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Fair enough but we do want to be as thorough as possible when we actually deliver these questions. Nice simple shallow questions leads to to nice simple shallow answers, and considering it takes something like 16 weeks to cycle back to us (assuming the program even lasts that long), I hope whoever is chosen is as absolutely thorough as possible.

 

On cooldowns, I would definitely support a 60 second cooldown for both TO and RP, but what I meant by (1) is that what I'd REALLY like is something which actually increases my damage. An actual, by God, offensive cooldown. RP kind of does this indirectly, and a talented Recharge Cells gives you 10% alacrity for a whopping majestic 6 freaking seconds.

 

By contrast, Mental Alacrity gives Sages 20% Alacrity and interrupt immunity for 10 seconds on a two minute cooldown (with talents to lower its cooldown), and all in a spec that has zero force issues.

 

Illegal Mods gives 30% accuracy and 15% Armor Penetration for 10 seconds, and Burst Volley (Sharpshooter exclusive cooldown) gives 10% alacrity and 2 energy per second (actually pushes you over 9 energy regen per second) and that latss for 15 seconds on just a 45 second cooldown.

 

I look at that something like that, and then I look at Tech Override and all I can think is, what good is that? TO definitely has its uses, and we should keep it and get it on either a shorter cooldown or have it have an effect which simply lasts for 10-12 seconds, or both, but damn if I don't really want something which can make sure I drop the hammer when I need to. Like, I dunno, maybe battle focus?

 

i highly doubt that we will be getting any new abilities/cooldowns out of this class representative thing. not saying i wouldnt want it, but just being realistic.

 

what is more likely is to alter abilities we already have/adjust talents.

 

regarding getting some more offensive umph, i had suggested in another thread somewhere that Demo Round be an auto crit on targets <30% health. its not exactly an execute, and its technically not a damage buff in any way (you could get lucky and crit on DR 100% of the time in a WZ), but it allows our damage to be a little bit more predictable, and to be able to pour it on when our target is vulnerable.

 

damage is very streaky for commando right now b/c of where crit % is. i dont like my damage being heavily dependent on RNG, and something like this would give me a little bit more reliability in taking down targets.

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i'll do one for each tree

 

 

assault: too many wasted skill points. this is a gripe for pvp as well as pve

what i would change: get rid of soldier's endurance and degauss

soldier's endurance is a worthless talent, and we are not a tank class. heavy trooper is leagues better anyway.

degauss is mostly useless now that we have hold the line. if it lowered the cooldown of hold the line or something maybe...

 

but what i would add in degauss' place is a pushback reduction for assault: charged bolts / full auto / plasma grenade / hail of bolts

make it not stack with steadied aim if need be, but that way, assault isn't required to spec most (really all) of their 10 extra points into gunnery

 

i would replace soldier's endurance with the previous talent advanced tech (+1% inc/outgoing healing). could be 3 or just 2 points. doesn't matter. this also helps combat medic (while also giving them a few extra skill points they'd want to take), but i have another concern for that tree.

 

 

not as important, but also an issue: i would like to know if hyper assault rounds is only supposed to apply to one target or is intended to be an aoe

 

 

again, not as important, but i would like if it full auto had an individual chance per tick to proc to trigger ionic accelerator. i don't believe the % chance to proc needs to be reduced, but i could probably live if it were.

basically, the cooldown reduction is useless unless it procs HIB resets every single time it's up and additionally if it's reset exactly 6s after with charged bolts. so many times full auto is up, but i find myself saving it because it's 2 GCDs i can't reset HIB unless i reset it at the very beginning.

 

 

 

gunnery: too many pvp-related talents for pvp. just adding one 2-point talent for t2-4 would help. i don't know what i would add. maybe take away from my earlier suggestion: put advanced tech back at the bottom, move steadied aim up.

maybe add something like kolto recharge back in or some skill that augmented explosive round in some way

a new muzzle fluting talent that lowered the cell cost of ER and additionally provided some effect, such as 1 stack of charged barrel/barrier, gained only once every x seconds, basically so that it could fill in as a pseudo-grav round for movement heavy fighting in pvp and movement phases in pve (dash'roode for example)

 

 

 

combat medic: this is mostly a pve concern, but for a really long time i felt that supercharge was more of a cooldown ability for big healing phases, and i was loathe to give up the +3% healing from being fully charged.

but then i found out that the most efficient way of healing was to build my charges to 30, hit supercharge, spam a bunch of skills, and then spend the rest of the time not charged just charging back up to 30 so i can use supercharge again. it seems that having a bonus to healing / damage while fully charged is a bit meaningless if i'm meant to use it as soon as it's available.

my suggestion: remove the bonus healing / damage from having 30 stacks (it doesn't seem to work correctly anyway), and the bonus healing / damage from supercharge. instead add a flat 3% bonus to healing / damage to combat support cell that's up all the time.

 

give bacta infusion the ability to build 3 charges, possibly kolto bomb as well, reduce medical probe's charge down to 3, but then also allow charges to be built up while supercharged. supercharge is basically zen; why not let it work like it?

obviously some other adjustments would need to be made to make it work out, but the main concern i have with this healing rotation is that i feel encouraged to use certain skills depending on whether or not i'm charged.

while charged: adv medical probe and kolto bomb; while not charged: medical probe and hammershot

 

that's a bit of an oversimplification of it, but i don't want to consider 'i could use adv medical probe in less cast-time and less ammo and additionally give an armor buff and a hot... i'm not building any charges right now anyway' or 'everyone in the raid has charged shield and i'm not charged, no point in using kolto bomb now since it doesn't build charges anyway'

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I really effectively only PvP and play Assault in PvP....my top 3 are related strictly to those....

 

1 - Change Degauss to be a small lowering of the cooldown of Electronet.

2 - Swap trees between Steadied Aim and Weapon Calibrations.

3 - Make a Dual Grenade (Assault Plastique + Sticky Grenade) buff the damage of the one of the two blasts. Would add back some burst.

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I really effectively only PvP and play Assault in PvP....my top 3 are related strictly to those....

 

1 - Change Degauss to be a small lowering of the cooldown of Electronet.

2 - Swap trees between Steadied Aim and Weapon Calibrations.

3 - Make a Dual Grenade (Assault Plastique + Sticky Grenade) buff the damage of the one of the two blasts. Would add back some burst.

 

try gunny

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i highly doubt that we will be getting any new abilities/cooldowns out of this class representative thing. not saying i wouldnt want it, but just being realistic.

 

what is more likely is to alter abilities we already have/adjust talents.

 

regarding getting some more offensive umph, i had suggested in another thread somewhere that Demo Round be an auto crit on targets <30% health. its not exactly an execute, and its technically not a damage buff in any way (you could get lucky and crit on DR 100% of the time in a WZ), but it allows our damage to be a little bit more predictable, and to be able to pour it on when our target is vulnerable.

 

damage is very streaky for commando right now b/c of where crit % is. i dont like my damage being heavily dependent on RNG, and something like this would give me a little bit more reliability in taking down targets.

 

On the new cooldowns issue, I actually agree with you that I don't see the devs giving us something, but on the other hand if we never ask we'll definitely never get it as opposed to probably never get it, and it honestly shouldn't be that hard to make Battle Focus a trooper ability as opposed to a Vanguard only ability (they gave us Hold the Line afterall).

 

I do like your idea for demo round, and perhaps you really pointed out the real overarching issue. Commando damage can be very very good, but it's not always there when we really need it and that is frustrating, especially when I'm on my other ranged classes and CAN guarantee the hurt. That is the issue which should be brought up I think, and we can provide a host of ideas we have. We get three questions, but those questions can be as thorough as we make them, and since we have a two week window I have no problem giving the devs enough to chew on to need all of those two weeks.

 

Our "offensive" cooldown is apparently Recharge Cells/Vent Heat

 

Which indirectly increases damage by allowing overextension of ammo to do higher burst damage then recovering using RC/VH

 

Perhaps, but that's my issue since I don't feel it should be. After all they same isn't true of Noble Sacrifice or Cool Head, and it doesn't change the fact that Tech Override, as niche as it can be, is ultimately pretty fail for a second to last ability.

 

 

Moving on, does anyone think that the ammo concern issue isn't really a concern at all? If not, why not? If so, what are some suggestions to change it? For gunnery, I'd like Special Munitions to lower HiB cost by 8 instead of 6 and I'd like the 4 piece eliminator's bonus to not only up HiB damage by 8% but also make it refund ammo (as opposed to simply reducing its cost). That way it goes back to being basically a free high damaging attack for gunnery again, and also helps Assault by keeping the damage buff and now they get even more ammo back from HiB which might go a long way to addressing their ammo concerns.

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I've only ever played a Combat Medic from 10 - 55 so I won't even talk about the DPS specs.

 

I have two 55 healers (Sage and Medic) and while I love the output of my Medic, I find playing him to be more stressful and frantic. Thinking about the best way to make healing an 8 man raid less frantic, while keeping the flavour of the Medic, I propose the following.

 

1. Get rid of Frontline Medic. It's stupid. No Combat Medic has ever been in a situation where they would ever use it.

 

2. Replace it with a 3/6% (or 4/8% more realistically due to the lack of Crit rating on Commando Medic gear) increase to tech critical chance with CSC active.

 

By keeping an inrease to crit chance in Tier 6 it makes it impossible for DPS specs to get it and wouldn't unbalance Commando DPS.

 

My Medic is critting 10K heals and being able to more reliably drop those in big damage phases (looking at you HM Dread Guard fight) would make healing a raid a lot easier.

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PvP is debateable but PvE Assault Spec is completely viable. I am currently raiding Nightmare content and going up against some of the best gunslingers and sentinels in this game.

 

By all means if you want to fix assault spec, but I'm doing fine in my raid group using it pushing out anywhere from 2800 to 3200 dps depending on the fight (Carnage Gaming). We have a gunnery commando in our group as well and we're within 10 dps of eachother on a majority of the fights, you can make diff specs work with this class. My spec is 1/12/33, utilizing the HiB every 6 seconds. The armour debuff can usually be applied by a slinger or a guardian tank, and I have no ammo issues using assault spec.

 

The abilities are cheaper, HiB gives heat back, and if worst comes to worst and you have exausted all of your ammo, you can hammer shot with HiB giving back heat. Mobility and the dots are great in fights like Dash'roode and Kephess the Undying.

 

As far as issues to bring up, I'd say #1 should be giving us some type of cooldown in comparison to a battle focus or a zen. Tech override doesn't do very much I agree.

 

Another issue would be making procs more reliable, when it comes to curtain of fire in gunnery and plasma cell in assault spec. I think we've all had a time where we cast 7 grav rounds without a full auto proc.

 

Other than that, I don't have issues when it comes to PvE, I am able to do just as much damage as gunslingers and sentinels. I do find Flyby ridiculously overpowered however, but having so many aoe's allows me to catch up.

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PvP is debateable but PvE Assault Spec is completely viable. I am currently raiding Nightmare content and going up against some of the best gunslingers and sentinels in this game.

 

By all means if you want to fix assault spec, but I'm doing fine in my raid group using it pushing out anywhere from 2800 to 3200 dps depending on the fight (Carnage Gaming). We have a gunnery commando in our group as well and we're within 10 dps of eachother on a majority of the fights, you can make diff specs work with this class. My spec is 1/12/33, utilizing the HiB every 6 seconds. The armour debuff can usually be applied by a slinger or a guardian tank, and I have no ammo issues using assault spec.

 

The abilities are cheaper, HiB gives heat back, and if worst comes to worst and you have exausted all of your ammo, you can hammer shot with HiB giving back heat. Mobility and the dots are great in fights like Dash'roode and Kephess the Undying.

 

 

The parses you posted in the other thread were generally much lower than 2800-3200. Lower gear level perhaps? I dunno but I trust parses you put up over anecdotal claims.

 

You're actually in a good situation for assault though, and your Kephess parse helps demonstrate a fight where assault should have an advantage (on the run dots in a fights where you have to move a lot is a definite advantage for assault, but the majority of fights allow you to stand and pew pew which favors gunnery). But yeah you're in a 16 man raid with another gunnery commando. Great time for assault. 8 mans where you're more likely to be the only armor debuff definitely favors gunnery. I'll take a moment to say that if the only other armor break is a gunslinger, it should still be you because gunslingers should only have to take time out of their rotation to apply an armor debuff when they're literally the only armor debuff available. Leaving it to a slinger is a disservice to your slinger buddy.

 

Meanwhile, I still say that assault spec is broken precisely because it's better to short your spec by 3 points and avoid the top tier talent entirely and put those 3 extra points into gunnery. Hybrids can be pretty fun, but considering that the ideal assault build, for either AC, involves only 33 points into the tree is a sign of a broken tree. At least the hybrid slinger spec is more of a true hybrid, and full sabo or full dirty fighting is actually still completely viable, whereas I don't hear of ANYONE whose viable with assault who also takes AP. No one does it. It's known to be suboptimal, and that needs to be fixed.

 

Finally, I'd like you to try a little experiment. It's cool that you're 10 DPS within a gunnery commando in your raid group, but the only person you can truly compare specs with is yourself. Maybe he's a better player than you and his DPS would go up way more if he saw the light and switched to assault. Maybe you're a much better player than he is and your damage would go up a lot if you played gunnery. Maybe you're both good players and have found the spec that best suits each of you. You espoused wanting someone who tries different things in the Rep thread, and maybe you've actually put in the time to find the best spec, but I don't assume anything, and you haven't posted gunnery parses on the same fight so who can tell?

 

As far as issues to bring up, I'd say #1 should be giving us some type of cooldown in comparison to a battle focus or a zen. Tech override doesn't do very much I agree.

 

Another issue would be making procs more reliable, when it comes to curtain of fire in gunnery and plasma cell in assault spec. I think we've all had a time where we cast 7 grav rounds without a full auto proc.

 

Other than that, I don't have issues when it comes to PvE, I am able to do just as much damage as gunslingers and sentinels. I do find Flyby ridiculously overpowered however, but having so many aoe's allows me to catch up.

 

Obviously I agree we need a good offensive cooldown (Battle Focus. Make it happen Bioware).

 

I also agree we could use some much more reliable procs. I hate nothing more than going through an entire relic cycle without a single CoF proc. That's ridiculous. Especially considering how crucial Full Auto is to gunnery spec from both a damage perspective as well as an ammo management perspective. As with current crit levels it's just way too streaky. This is mostly a gunnery issue though, and I'd prefer to try and avoid questions that only focus on one spec or one situation, especially as long as there are issues with the entire class that can and should be addressed (seriously does it bother anyone else that we never know exactly how much ammo we have?).

 

Finally, don't kid yourself. For a given value of fine we are doing pretty fine in PVE, but if you're doing as much damage as sentinels and gunslingers then those sentinels and gunslingers stand to improve a lot. In 16 man it might not matter as much since 16 man is rarely the place for huge DPS checks (there have been exceptions in the past, but in general 16 man is much less about having to put up absolute maximum damage from all DPS).

Don't get me wrong, on the odd fight you can get lucky with a lot of stuff and get in pretty close shouting distance of them and a good commando can indeed probably keep up with a good sentinel or good gunslinger. But a great commando is always gonna be behind a great gunslinger or great sentinel, at least in the current iteration of the game.

Edited by ArchangelLBC
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The parses you posted in the other thread were generally much lower than 2800-3200. Lower gear level perhaps? I dunno but I trust parses you put up over anecdotal claims.

 

The parse in question (2600s) was on writhing horror, and according to Torparse statistics, that would be the #1 damage for that fight on 16m Hm/Nim for commandos. That parse has not been added as of yet but you're welcome to see another I have done currently holding the #2 spot.

 

http://www.torparse.com/statistics/Terror+From+Beyond/The+Writhing+Horror?ac=Commando

http://www.torparse.com/statistics/Scum+and+Villainy/Dash%27roode?ac=Commando

 

You're actually in a good situation for assault though, and your Kephess parse helps demonstrate a fight where assault should have an advantage (on the run dots in a fights where you have to move a lot is a definite advantage for assault, but the majority of fights allow you to stand and pew pew which favors gunnery). But yeah you're in a 16 man raid with another gunnery commando. Great time for assault. 8 mans where you're more likely to be the only armor debuff definitely favors gunnery. I'll take a moment to say that if the only other armor break is a gunslinger, it should still be you because gunslingers should only have to take time out of their rotation to apply an armor debuff when they're literally the only armor debuff available. Leaving it to a slinger is a disservice to your slinger buddy.[/Quote]

 

Guardian Tank, and it seems more "imposing" to make a commando switch their entire spec for armour pen vs. a Gunslinger regardless of spec.

 

Finally, I'd like you to try a little experiment. It's cool that you're 10 DPS within a gunnery commando in your raid group, but the only person you can truly compare specs with is yourself. Maybe he's a better player than you and his DPS would go up way more if he saw the light and switched to assault. Maybe you're a much better player than he is and your damage would go up a lot if you played gunnery. Maybe you're both good players and have found the spec that best suits each of you. You espoused wanting someone who tries different things in the Rep thread, and maybe you've actually put in the time to find the best spec, but I don't assume anything, and you haven't posted gunnery parses on the same fight so who can tell?[/Quote]

 

There's Torparse, theres moxparse during raids, it isn't simply info from one person. I was actually a hardcore gunnery until about 2.0. I then switched to a Hybrid spec incoropating Incendiary and high friction bolts into a gunnery spec. But gunnery in raids has always been somewhat stationary and waiting for ammo to recharge not being able to spam abilities to your hearts content. I am not sure why you think AS has ammo issues. AS is very similar to Madness spec hybrid in sorcs, where you don't have to wait and can spam lightning as soon as your dots are applied.

 

Finally, don't kid yourself. For a given value of fine we are doing pretty fine in PVE, but if you're doing as much damage as sentinels and gunslingers then those sentinels and gunslingers stand to improve a lot. In 16 man it might not matter as much since 16 man is rarely the place for huge DPS checks (there have been exceptions in the past, but in general 16 man is much less about having to put up absolute maximum damage from all DPS).

Don't get me wrong, on the odd fight you can get lucky with a lot of stuff and get in pretty close shouting distance of them and a good commando can indeed probably keep up with a good sentinel or good gunslinger. But a great commando is always gonna be behind a great gunslinger or great sentinel, at least in the current iteration of the game.

 

In add intensive fights, more than 5 adds, great gunsligners will win, but as far as boss damage commandos can keep up just as easily. Going AS actually levels the playing field a bit since the current gunslinger hybrid spec utilizes the sub 30% increased Dot damage that AS also has. In fights with multiple bosses any class with increased dot damage or executes would surpass a gunnery commando as they do not have this advantage for burn phases and such.

Edited by LordKantner
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Two main issues stand out for me: Assault is terribly designed and needs a rework (Assault Plastique, anyone?), and the CM tree is somewhat poorly designed in terms of how talents are laid out.

 

In the CM tree, having to take Frontline Medic in order to get the buffs to Trauma Probe is unforgivable. There's simply no reason for this talent to be mandatory in PvE, and it is of highly dubious utility even in PvP. Another issue is that the ideal CM build comes just one talent point shy of a happy meal, resulting in either missing out on Kolto Wave (which is a significant nerf to AoE healing in PvE) or missing a point in First Responder. The latter is what I usually do, since First Responder is almost always up regardless, but it feels really janky and poorly designed. It's just not clear to me why things are laid out in this fashion. Uncoupling Probe Medic from Frontline Medic would resolve the useless talent issue (and free up points that we used to put into the damage reduction talents), and making Kolto Wave a 1 point talent would probably be all it takes to make the tree feel more complete by maxing out First Responder.

 

As for Assault, where do I even start… I actually really really like the *feel* of the spec…when it is played suboptimally. I like the designed use of Full Auto, and I like the double DoT approach of IR and AP. Unfortunately, AP is just not compelling enough to merit usage. Parses demonstrate this pretty clearly. Full Auto is also not very compelling. It should probably have a 100% chance to proc High Impact Bolt, or perhaps a damage buff. It's not clear which would be better.

 

I would propose a number of changes. Since Assault is parsing so far behind Gunnery, we have room to work. First, AP should retain the DoT component it currently has, but the initial burst effect should be buffed considerably, making it optimal to use it on cooldown. Another option might be to give a talented buff to High Impact Bolt which increases the damage dealt by some amount (e.g. 15%) on targets affected by the AP DoT. Second, Full Auto should receive a damage buff to burning targets, and the proc chance of HiB should be increased from 70% to 100%. Right now, double Charged Bolts does more damage than a single Full Auto in the same time frame at a cost of *slightly* more ammo AND has exactly the same proc chance on High Impact Bolt (1 - (1 - 0.45)^2 = 69.75%). This is just way out of whack, and doesn't properly incentivize use of Full Auto.

 

Buffing the damage dealt by Full Auto and increasing the proc rate, as well as increasing the damage dealt by AP (or increasing damage of HiB in response to AP) would increase Assault's overall damage by a significant amount, while simultaneously making the optimal rotation a lot more involved than just unending Charged Bolts spam.

 

Unlike other suggestions in the thread, I don't think that ammo management is in a categorically bad place for any tree. Combat Medic in particular has fantastic ammo management when correctly played and is able to put out a very high level of healing. I don't feel that any buffs are necessary in this domain. It is *hard* to manage CM ammo (much harder than the other two healers), but this is part of the class and a function of the extreme burstiness of the healing rotation. Gunnery certainly suffers from very, very tight ammo management. This is a large part of why the old 4pc set bonus is still mathematically superior to the new 4pc, even accounting for the loss in main stat. I don't think Gunnery needs a buff, because it does pull very competitive numbers even now, but some streamlining of the ammo management (perhaps enough to incentivize the new 4pc?) would be very nice indeed.

Edited by KeyboardNinja
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Oh and for commando healers, our hammer shot should give back ammo just like diagnostic scan in scoundrels...

 

i like this too. especially since we now have the cell system, it doesn't have to be 1 whole ammo, it can be a few cells that we get back on hammershot crits or something

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The parse in question (2600s) was on writhing horror, and according to Torparse statistics, that would be the #1 damage for that fight on 16m Hm/Nim for commandos. That parse has not been added as of yet but you're welcome to see another I have done currently holding the #2 spot.

 

http://www.torparse.com/statistics/Terror+From+Beyond/The+Writhing+Horror?ac=Commando

 

Forgive me but what you said is that you were keeping up with sentinels and gunslingers in your guild, and pushing 2800-3200 using assault. Those were your words not mine. My understanding is that you were claiming to do 2800-3200 damage. 2660, as nice as it is on Writhing Horror, isn't 2800. 2660 puts you in 48th place on the Torparse list overall, and 3 of CG's gunslingers and one of their sentinels are ahead of you, the closest of which is 80 DPS ahead, and Cunning is over 300 DPS ahead. That's not "doing the same damage as gunslingers and sentinels". That's doing 80-300 DPS less than gunslingers and sentinels. Pizza is probably the best PVE Merc or Commando in the game right now and he's currently 600 DPS behind the leader (a gunslinger).

 

Of course Torparse isn't exhaustive, but don't claim to be keeping up with your guilds gunslingers and sentinels when the second most impressive parse you provided was a 2660 Writhing Horror kill and the next closest gunslinger from your guild who bothers to upload to torparse is sitting at 2744. Granted your most impressive parse is the 4146 Kephess the Undying, but even there williams is almost 800 DPS ahead of you. Of course that fight is interesting since a good DPS in that fight in 16 man should be taking care of the electric balls so they don't land on healers and that can really lower your average over the whole fight.

 

Basically what I'm saying is don't oversell and make wild claims. You say "assault spec is completely viable in PVE, here's a 2600 Writhing Horror parse" and I'm more than happy to say "yeah that's pretty good damage on writhing horror, well done". Saying "well I totally keep up with my guilds sentinels and gunslingers in assault spec, pushing 2800-3200" and that same Writhing Horror parse makes you seem like either a liar or delusional, and looking at the leaderboards for that fight in 16 man HM/NM makes you seem like even more of a liar or delusional. At best your statements are wildly misleading and they actually detract from your point and that's that assault is a viable PVE spec. It's like when you said gunnery had only 19% ranged crit. It's flat out wrong, and it makes the reasonable and true things you might be saying look false by association.

 

 

Guardian Tank, and it seems more "imposing" to make a commando switch their entire spec for armour pen vs. a Gunslinger regardless of spec.

 

If the spec was actually a lower parsing one you'd have a point. In the meantime not all raids have a guardian tank. In fact in an 8 man situation it is entirely possible for a commando to be the only source of the armor debuff. That's why I said you were in a good place because you're in a 16 man group and there's already a gunnery commando there. Saying assault is the best choice all the time is foolish though.

 

There's Torparse, theres moxparse during raids, it isn't simply info from one person. I was actually a hardcore gunnery until about 2.0. I then switched to a Hybrid spec incoropating Incendiary and high friction bolts into a gunnery spec. But gunnery in raids has always been somewhat stationary and waiting for ammo to recharge not being able to spam abilities to your hearts content. I am not sure why you think AS has ammo issues. AS is very similar to Madness spec hybrid in sorcs, where you don't have to wait and can spam lightning as soon as your dots are applied.

 

Because CB spam somehow runs you no drier than GR spam? Because my 8 free ammo every 6 seconds comes regardless of what I do whereas yours requires you to get an IA proc on cooldown, which isn't going to happen in practice? Because every single one of my regular rotation abilities costs 16 ammo or less? I will happily listen to people who play assault more than I do, and if you say there are no ammo issues then fine there's no ammo issues. I just asked you whether or not you honestly thought you couldn't put out even more DPS as gunnery. You were hardcore gunnery so you know the spec. Put your money where your mouth is and parse against the only person you CAN parse against when you're comparing specs.

 

You act like every single one of us just up and decided gunnery was better and never tried assault. No doubt that's true for some people. I'll admit that in a PVE setting I never gave it much of a chance. Other people though HAVE tried out both, while having a personal preference for assault, and found gunnery better. Your results may be different , but you never know till you actually try. Everyone tells me they usually put up more damage for slinger in either a hybrid or dirty fighting spec, but I have consistently done better in sharpshooter.

 

In add intensive fights, more than 5 adds, great gunsligners will win, but as far as boss damage commandos can keep up just as easily. Going AS actually levels the playing field a bit since the current gunslinger hybrid spec utilizes the sub 30% increased Dot damage that AS also has. In fights with multiple bosses any class with increased dot damage or executes would surpass a gunnery commando as they do not have this advantage for burn phases and such.

 

 

Again you say that, but your evidence contradicts that. You aren't keeping up. Also mathematically, unless you are having multiple bosses below 30% at a time and both of them are Dotted, you gain no advantage from any execute style talents than you would have otherwise. The three execute phases in DG give functionally no more damage than if there was one boss whose HP totaled the sum of the 3 individual bosses. The rest of that "levelling the playing field" stuff is mostly nonsense I'm afraid. It increases your damage, that I'm not denying, but you can either keep up with them or you can't (parses, not just from you but from the best merc/commandos in the game against the best snipers/slingers in the game suggest that you can't).

 

 

Either way, you completely dodged the fact that so long as x/x/33 is better than full spec assault, the spec itself is broken no matter how viable it is.

Edited by ArchangelLBC
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Pushback (no interrupt protection is fair enough but also a large DPS loss if we take damage while casting?)

Assault (the whole package)

Stealth Scan (truly feeble anti-stealth ability)

Edited by Gyronamics
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Pushback (no interrupt protection ok but also a large DPS loss if we take damage while casting)

Assault (the whole package)

Stealth Scan (truly feeble anti-stealth ability)

 

Stealth Scan is pretty bad, but with only three questions I dunno that I'd put that one on my list. I'd much rather have an actual offensive cooldown (in PVE or PVP) than an improved stealth scan, so the real question is how to make the question broad enough that you can work Stealth Scan in.

 

Maybe make the issue the general lacklusterness of quite a few commando abilities in practice? (Tech Override, Stealth Scan, Adrenaline Rush all spring to mind as being pretty poor abilities based on their actual usability, their cooldowns, or both).

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Two main issues stand out for me: Assault is terribly designed and needs a rework (Assault Plastique, anyone?), and the CM tree is somewhat poorly designed in terms of how talents are laid out.

 

Actually, all three trees are laid out pretty poorly.

 

Along with the issues that you mentioned in the CM and AS trees you have to take a number of PvP centric abilities in the Gunnery tree as well in order to reach the cap stone ability.

 

You pretty much have to take a combination of any of the following: Cover Fire, Advance the Line, Tenacious Defense, Concussive Force, and Reflexive Shield in order to reach Demo Round. I could understand maybe taking 1 PvP centric ability in order to reach it, but needing to take 3 is a bit much.

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